Lance Armstrong in ruins?

[Robert]

The process of officially stripping Lance Armstrong of his record-breaking seven Tour de France titles began in earnest last night when the US Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) formally sanctioned the world's best-known cyclist for doping offences.

In the wake of Armstrong's decision not to contest the charges, USADA announced the 40-year-old, who retired last year, is to receive a life ban but more tellingly have the honours he accumulated since August 1998 struck from the records. When that happens is now dependent on the UCI, cycling's governing body.

Armstrong has been sanctioned for five violations of the anti-doping rules, including use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances, possession, trafficking and an attempted cover-up. USADA outlined "aggravating circumstances including involvement in multiple anti-doping rule violations and participation in a sophisticated doping scheme and conspiracy. In addition to the lifetime ban, Mr Armstrong will be disqualified from any and all competitive results obtained on and subsequent to 1 August, 1998, including forfeiture of any medals, titles, winnings, finishes, points and prizes".

"Any time we have overwhelming proof of doping, our mandate is to initiate the case and see it to conclusion as was done in this case," said Travis Tygart, chief executive of USADA.

John Fahey, head of the World Anti-doping Authority (Wada), bluntly summed up Armstrong's decision to stop fighting USADA as admitting he is a "drug cheat".

"[Armstrong] had the right to rip up those charges but he elected not to, therefore the only interpretation in these circumstances is that there was substance in [them]," said Fahey. "It leads to the conclusion that he is a drug cheat. My understanding is that when the evidence is based upon a career that included seven Tour de France wins then all of that becomes obliterated."

Armstrong's reputation may be on the verge of ruin but it is by no means the end of a sporting saga that has stretched over more than a decade. It is for the UCI and the organisers of the Tour to implement USADA's decisions and that is unlikely to happen with any great alacrity. The UCI wants to see USADA's case against Armstrong in full before announcing its next course of action and there remains a strong possibility the case will end up before the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne next year. The Tour authorities will in turn wait on the UCI's decision.

USADA says it will release the details as it is bound to do under Wada guidelines when there is no hearing. There remain clouding issues, including Wada's eight-year statute of limitations on bringing doping cases. Of Armstrong's seven Tour triumphs, only the 2004 and 2005 wins fall within those terms although USADA insists evidence from before then can be acted upon.

The UCI is a signatory to the world anti-doping code. Under its terms it has to recognise USADA's findings. The case is built around testimonies from 10 former team-mates, including former dopers Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton. USADA claims to have tests taken in 2009 and 2010 that are "consistent" with blood doping.

Five officials connected to Armstrong or his US Postal Services team, including Johan Bruyneel, his former sporting director, are also the subject of USADA charges. "Lance has never withdrawn from a fair fight in his life so his decision underlines what an unjust process this has been," said Bruyneel, who, like the others, denies the allegations.

Armstrong himself continues to deny he ever doped and says he is the victim of a "witch-hunt". He has previously vigorously contested any allegations but decided not to contest USADA's charges because of the "toll this has taken on my family". It follows a federal court in Austin, Texas, rejecting his legal application against USADA on Monday. Thursday night was the deadline for Armstrong to submit his case to USADA, instead he released an 871-word statement.

It began: "There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, 'Enough is enough.' That time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch-hunt. The toll this has taken on my family and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense."

It continued: "If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and – once and for all – put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair. Regardless of what Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colours. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?"

Fahey, president of Wada, dismissed Armstrong's rejection of USADA's authority – the Texan says it is for the UCI to decide whether titles won in its sport should be stripped – and its case against him.

"They have acted on rules which are compliant with the Wada code," said Fahey. "Now Mr Armstrong has endeavoured to shoot the messenger. He's never gone before a tribunal. There has never been a hearing related to this behaviour, so what is he tired of?

"You've got to look at the facts and the evidence that has only been collected in the last couple of years. There are 10 riders and several other witnesses with evidence. There can be no other interpretation. To refuse the charges can only leave the interpretation that he is a cheat."

One consequence of a rewriting of cycling history will see Bradley Wiggins elevated on to the podium for the 2009 Tour, in which Armstrong finished third, so becoming the first Briton to make it there – three years ahead of his victory this summer.

Tour de farce: Who takes Lance's titles?

1999 Who finished second? Alex Zülle (Swit) who admitted to doping as part of Festina Affair in 1998. Banned for year but returned for 1999.

2000 2nd: Jan Ullrich (Ger). Five-time runner-up was given a two-year ban in February this year after the Operation Puerto doping scandal in 2006, with his races from 2005-2007 banished.

2001 2nd: Ullrich

2002 2nd: Joseba Beloki (Sp). Clean.

2003 2nd: Ullrich

2004 2nd: Andreas Klöden (Ger) Connected to a 2006 doping programme, the rider eventually paid a €25,000 fine. German ADA announced an investigation into Klöden and others on doping suspicions.

2005 2nd: Ivan Basso (It). Acquitted in October 2006 in Operation Puerto, but reopened in 2007 and proved guilty. The Italian was banned for two years after he admitted to attempting doping.

[Robert]

Here is Lance's reply:

Lance Armstong's Statement of August 23, 2012


AUSTIN, Texas - August 23rd, 2012 - There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense.

I had hoped that a federal court would stop USADA’s charade. Although the court was sympathetic to my concerns and recognized the many improprieties and deficiencies in USADA’s motives, its conduct, and its process, the court ultimately decided that it could not intervene.

If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA’s process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and – once and for all – put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?

From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA’s improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA’s own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today.

The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged ex-teammate can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It’s an unfair approach, applied selectively, in opposition to all the rules. It’s just not right.

USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially not Travis Tygart.

Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.

[Tig]

It's been a common suspicion in the cycling community that he has always been at the forefront of high tech, undetectable doping. In short, micro-dosing of PED's and blood banking. Lance is a type AA personality. Huge ego, and not a nice guy to spend much time with. I've only met him a few times at MTB races, and he was a dick on and off the bike.

As the testing became harder to beat, the players (athletes and doctors) had to work to not get caught, yet most eventually did get caught. Re-infusing blood that ended up being from someone else instead of their own was the most common mistake. A modern testing of old samples will reveal much.

The logic never panned out. Take 4 or 5 top cyclists that Lance always beat in the Tour. They all get caught doping. He claims to not dope, yet was still able to beat the dopers over and over?? Also, so many past team mates have testified of his doping, including some that were with him for many years. He finally got caught.

[Spudman]

He's still tops in my book and over the years he's passed all the tests. That's final to me. I stand by Lance no matter whether he did or not. He's a champion and this is a stupid witch hunt.

[tjcurtin1]

I'll never understand why athletes deny themselves the ultimate high of knowing that their victories are truly their own, the result of their training and dedication and hard work, and not the result of cheating (by whatever means). Is winning by any means really that satisfying? Apparently it is, in any case, that important to them. But if you are ultimately going to lose it all when you are (inevitably) discovered, how is it worth it?

[Spudman]

But Lance has not been proven guilty in any test. All evidence is hearsay. There is no hard scientific evidence against him.

[Tig]

How many MORE team mates need to testify that they were doping, and witnessed LA?

The ASO even gave Lance a 20 minute heads up before testing.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrong-warned-before-all-doping-controls

[bigoldron]

Another athlete got caught doping. Big deal. Here's the Armstrong that we need to mourn for:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/neil-armstrong-moon-mystery-man-022250193.html

[R_of_G]

I have no idea if Armstrong cheated or not. In this era, it's difficult to give athletes the benefit of the doubt when so many of their colleagues have been exposed as cheaters.

Cycling isn't a sport I've ever really followed much so maybe that's why I'm fine with not really knowing or caring for sure if his athletic accomplishments were legitimate.

I will say this for the guy, he's become a tremendous inspiration and vocal advocate for people fighting cancer. That's admirable regardless of whether or not he cheated.

[piebaldpython]

As Spud said.......he never flunked a drug/urine test.....not even a false positive. And considering that amount of testing that they do in cycling, it just can't be luck that he wasn't caught if he was "juicing".

Plus, he didn't have the "physical" transformation that guys like Bonds, McGwire etc had either. As to testimony by teammates....well, if they said he was injecting....nobody knows what he was injecting.......and quite frankly, he may have come up with a perfectly legitimate herbal cocktail akin to what the fabled Chinese martial arts guys used to harden their bodies internally and externally.

To me.....based on the above.....this smacks of a witch-hunt and sour grapes.

In a weird thought.....I can't imagine that his cancer charity work would have been anywhere near as successful as it was IF he hadn't won all of those Tour de Frances. Plus, no way he gets Sheryl Crow by finishing 2nd a bunch of times. lol

[marnold]

The entire sport is completely corrupt. The thing I don't like is the guilty until proven innocent aspect. If he really was tipped off about the tests, then that proves my first point. As it is, the evidence is all circumstantial. There's lots of it, but no smoking gun. I don't trust when the best witnesses have a lot to gain by giving their testimony.

As it is, the titles should go unawarded since you can't prove the others weren't cheating as well.

[Spudman]

The "tipped off" thing doesn't hold water either. You win a stage, you go directly to control and pee in a cup. You'd think there would be no way to secretly prepare for that.

[Tig]

"The truth comes out in the wash." "Time will tell."
These old saying will be relevant some time soon, regardless of which way things swing. The public has not been exposed to all of the evidence and testimony in this case.

Six different 1999 urine samples of Armstrong's tested positive for EPO when retested later with better, more accurate tests.

No one likes to see their heroes dismantled. I was pizzed and hurt when I saw US guys like Tyler Hamilton, Levi Leipheimer, Floyd Landis, David Clinger and Kirk O'Bee get caught, and then lie over and over to cover it up. I hated finding out guys I admired like David Millar, Jan Ullrich, Alexander Vinokourov, Ivan Basso, Marco Pantani, Rolf Aldag, Udo Bolts, Bjarne Riis, Erik Zabel, Jan Ullrich, Richard Virenque, Stefano Garzelli, Frank Vandenbroucke, and Manuel Beltran were caught or admitted to doping.

It is well known in the cycling racing community that coach Eddie Borysewicz doped the entire and highly successful US team in the '84 Olympics.
Less know is that Eddy Merckx tested positive for banned doping substances in the '69 Giro d'Italia, getting kicked out, and again in the '73 Giro di Lombardia.

The bottom line here is, Lance Armstrong is no better or worse than the many names listed above. Sure, he had plenty of money to buy the best doctors and testing, but he is just like any other athlete that became mentally addicted to the benefits of the extra performance. There is no witch hunt, just business as usual in the game of cat and mouse.

[sunvalleylaw]

This guy covers the first thoughts I had. So who they gonna crown? I am not completely on top of it, but most the contenders I can think of have had there own scandals.

http://www.vice.com/read/so-wait-who-actually-won-all-those-tour-de-france-titles?fb_action_ids=4499082114564&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%224499082114564%22%3A1015106 6862656553%7D&action_type_map=%7B%224499082114564%22%3A%22og.rec ommends%22%7D&action_ref_map=[]


So who are they gonna say won all those races? :confused: Good luck finding a contender.

[@nthony]

USADA need to look at their own practices... Offering incentives to those caught out and then offering to cut their ban for tetifying against Lance Armstrong is highly unethical. Of course a cheat is going to do anything to get their own ban cut shorter.

[sunvalleylaw]

I want to be clear that I recognize it is very hard not to suspect that Lance may have cheated. Beating all the other dopers all those years is pretty amazing. But is has not been "proved" in an appropriate forum. But I just don't like how this whole thing is being handled, and until it is proved, I just don't see what good they are doing.

EDIT: see my post below regarding what I mean about an appropriate forum. The US judge that had to decline jurisdiction went ahead and commented on the conflicts within the current bodies handling this.

[poodlesrule]

So who are they gonna say won all those races? :confused: Good luck finding a contender.

There is a Wikipedia page listing dopers.
It is a long, long sad list, which also shows penalties given, and IRRC, the medical problems some dopers encountered.

[Tig]

I'm with you there. I never wanted anything bad like this to happen. I've always wanted guys like Lance to be on the up and up. I'd hate to see any fallout affect the Live Strong cancer foundation or his kids. I remember Lance saying he'd rather be remembered for his cancer related work than his cycling career.

When I found out from some back channels (people who I'll decline from naming even though they no longer compete) about the wide spread doping on the then USPS Cycling Team, I didn't want to believe it. Later, I was just plain mad. It was still hard to accept, but occasional news stories confirmed a few things, especially the time their soigneurs were caught dumping spent vials and IV equipment in a dumpster.



As to the USADA, they have been a bad joke for years. A good pro racing friend, Jason Sager, missed a doping control right after an MTB race here in Texas. They wrote his name on a board on their trailer, which NO ONE saw. They did not request his name on the PA until much later, after he had left. A friend called him and he came right back, but they said it was too late. Then, they banned him for 6 months, but showed up at his home several times for unannounced tests, which he always passed. The guy is vegan! He'd never put anything in his body that wasn't WADA legal and organic.

[sunvalleylaw]

I also want to be clear that one of the reasons I don't like this, and particularly the USADA's approach, is related to fundamental american judicial system concepts of fairness. Innocent until proven guilty. You may have your suspicions, but if it is not proved, . . .

This excerpt is from a CNN article that encloses some language from the judge that declined to take the case, because the US courts did not have jurisdiction, a legal principle that means that a court can't get into it unless it has a legal right to do so.

U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks, in ruling Monday that the court did not have jurisdiction, acknowledged that "the appearance of a conflict on the part of both organizations creates doubt the charges against Armstrong would receive fair consideration in either forum." But that doesn't mean federal courts should intervene, the judge said, adding that "these matters should be resolved internally, by the parties most affected."

"If these bodies wish to damage the image of their sport through bitter infighting, they will have to do so without the involvement of the United States courts," Sparks said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/23/sport/lance-armstrong-investigation/index.html

Again, as is always the case, "not guilty" is not the same as "innocent". And eyewitness testimony can certainly be considered in a US court, as opposed to hearsay, which normally cannot be considered. But the cycling world (or at least USADA world) does not seem to want to handle it that way.

[Tig]

I should make clear the main reason I show anger towards Armstrong.
Every person who questions or presents claims about his doping has automatically been the subject of the most harsh public attacks by he and his team of publicists and PR people. We rarely see this level of character assassination in the nasty political world! Sure, some of these people had something to gain by outing Armstrong, but most ended up losing out in a big way, like Frankie Andreu, who's testimony was supposed to remain sealed in an unrelated litigation case. When Frankie and his wife's testomy were leaked to the press, Armstrong began an unprecedented attack on them. By this point, I was thoroughly disgusted with the Armstrong machine's acidic and destructive qualities. I never liked bullies and might-is-right types. Times ten that, knowing how guilty he really was.

Take David Millar, the opposite. He was caught, fought it, and finally admitted it in full. He showed a level of character that was inspiring through his honesty. He returned to competition with his head held high, clean, and loving the sport like never before. His results never equaled his doped results, but he is respected. I can not say the same for Andy and Fränk Schleck, etc.

[NWBasser]

Here's an article that provides some ver good insight into the whole problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all

The whole issue isn't really as black and white as we'd like to see it.

[sunvalleylaw]

@NWBasser, it rarely is. Just the whole situation sucks.

@Tig, not a fan of bully tactics either. I am willing to guess that Lance is no picnic to be around, or to do business with, or be a teammate of, etc. But I still don't like how this whole thing is being handled.

[sunvalleylaw]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=4&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all

Here is a piece by a former pro racer that is interesting about the choice to dope or not dope. I hope his dream for a level playing field is somehow realized through all of this.

[piebaldpython]

This was just posted on AOL from a Lance Armstrong press conference today:
http://aol.sportingnews.com/sport/story/2012-10-17/lance-armstrong-doping-nike-contract-terminated-livestrong-foundation-step-down?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing8%7Cdl4%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D221311

Lance is stepping down as Chairman of LiveStrong. NIKE has immediately terminated their endorsement contract with Lance....saying in effect that he has misled them for 10 years.

WOW.....what a mess and what a shame.

[sunvalleylaw]

Yep. It is too bad. What is wrong is wrong. But I have to feel somewhat sympathetic. None of the other contenders during that era were any cleaner. He was still the strongest under the race conditions of the era, which included all (that I know of) the top folks doping. Still, wrong is wrong.

A long time cycling friend of mine, really still a kid, who started cycling with my mountain bike group as a pudgy 9th grader who wanted to become a bike racer, has become a contender and has a shot at being a pro racer. He (now maybe 20 years old) has raced in Europe and is pursuing the dream.
He posted the following on facebook last week. I had to share it,

"My Heroes are cheaters, my sport is tarnished. Disappointed but determined to be apart of the new Clean age of cycling. I hope to be somebody worth looking up to. Especially for the next kids that I hope to inspire. Just like I was inspired by these "Heroes" but this time for real."

I applaud his attitude and determination in a disappointing time for the cycling world. Good on ya Josh!

[Robert]

Same thing with Ben Johnson! Everybody he beat in Seoul were doped too.

Somebody's gotta take a fall though... so of course it's going to be the biggest star.

[piebaldpython]

But this is decidedly different because seemingly everyone but Armstrong was "found out". I guess the parallel thought/paradigm would be if ALL the top home-run hitters were STEROIDAL.

[Tig]

The case really shows how widespread doping has become in the sport. Almost every top US rider admitted to their own doping in the case against Armstrong. Now we know why he didn't fight it, because there was no chance against over 20 witnesses.

If doping didn't threaten people's health (too many have died), then I could see why some people say to legalize it. I doubt anyone would want to see teens doping if it became accepted practice, however.

[piebaldpython]

Armstrong is allegedly thinking about admitting to using PEDs and doping during his career. This would then allow him to request reinstatement. So, I guess the witch-hunt really was true in their assertions.....and his constant denials of same was just BS. Sort of reminds me of when Marion Jones finally admitted to using PEDs which ended her track-and-field career.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/sport/story/2013-01-04/lance-armstrong-doping-admission-peds-epo-doping-tour-de-france-livestrong?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D253121

[Tig]

In the public eye, to consider admitting you've done something (and announcing to associates that you are considering it), is as good as a confession itself.
He is already in legal hot water with the companies that endorsed him, so this would strengthen their civil cases against him.

Film at 11...

[Robert]

It will be another Hollywood movie out of this I bet. Of course he is guilty. I'm surprised anyone doubted that. What may be worse are the methods by which he kept people from spilling the truth.

[Spudman]

It was a fantastic run while it lasted.

[piebaldpython]

Here's the thing that rankles me no end about Lance. It's bad enough that he LIED for years about his drug use. But it's something totally different in that he won judgments in court against those who accused him of doping (libel/slander cases) and he ruined some other people (teammate/competitors) along the way for the same reasons too.

As I understand it, the people he won judgments against have no recourse at this time because the statute of limitations ran out.

How the heck is that fair?

[Robert]

It's not fair, that's for sure...

But this whole story will make for an entertaining Hollywood movie!
Grab yer popcorn

:punch::munch:

I just read this today:


Oprah Winfrey is confirming that Lance Armstrong came clean to her about his use of performance-enhancing drugs during their 2½ hour interview Monday.

She said the cyclist was "forthcoming" as she asked him in detail about doping allegations that followed him throughout his seven Tour de France victories.


Winfrey interviewed Armstrong at a hotel in downtown Austin.

The session was to be broadcast on Thursday, but Winfrey said it will now run in two parts over two nights because there is so much material.

The confession was a stunning reversal for a proud athlete and celebrity who sought lavish praise in the court of public opinion and used courtrooms to punish his critics.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I find it interesting that so many have expressed shock about this, when it's simply another example of getting ahead in any way possible, which seems to be a constant in an over-competitive world. Whether it be sports, business, politics, personal, whatever, morality and ethics are often non-existent, ignored or overridden in pursuit of "success". Right, wrong or otherwise, it's a fact - and only the very naive are the least bit surprised. For every Lance Armstrong or Mark McGwire who've been caught, there are dozens who haven't and won't ever be.

Rules, drug tests, etc. give the illusion of purity, but it's still just an illusion. And it's a witch hunt, too - somehow related to the general anti-drug hysteria of the drug war, another fruitless endeavor. It's kinda weird how some performance-enhancing drugs, like lidocaine and cortisone are OK, while others are not.

[Robert]

This is very true. Well said - I completely agree.

You guys should read this article about Dentist Kip Litton http://www.examiner.com/article/cheaters-never-win-the-bizarre-story-of-marathon-runner-kip-litton
It's a bizarre story!

In all areas of life, there are cheaters. I'm sure there plenty that never get caught.


I find it interesting that so many have expressed shock about this, when it's simply another example of getting ahead in any way possible, which seems to be a constant in an over-competitive world. Whether it be sports, business, politics, personal, whatever, morality and ethics are often non-existent, ignored or overridden in pursuit of "success". Right, wrong or otherwise, it's a fact - and only the very naive are the least bit surprised. For every Lance Armstrong or Mark McGwire who've been caught, there are dozens who haven't and won't ever be.

[Tig]

The only surprise here is Armstrong admitting to anything. Inside the competitive cycling community, many of us suspected or knew that he and so many others were doping. It was a known reality that irritated many, especially having to watch Lance destroy anyone who challenged him while he paraded his lies. The rest of the world didn't want to hear anything negative, so many of us were ostracized for even bringing it up.

This is the beginning of a long awaited justice for the former teammates he has slandered and hurt. I feel for them. I also feel for the many people who have looked up to Armstrong as a roll model, be it cancer patients or young athletes.

[Jipes]

My vision of the very late confession of Amstrong is that he just wants revenge he will tell what many people in the business help him and allow him to get doped without being catch positive and I guess some people in the UCI are already very very nervous. Despite this sudden effort to be honest I don't believe that he is really sorry for what he has done during his whole carrier specially all the guys he "shoot down" in the media like Christophe Basson for example. the fact that doping is more and more widely used is not to my eyes a valid excuse to try to make money while destroying other Men's life even if it's a worldwide business :mad

[Eric]

The only surprise here is Armstrong admitting to anything. Inside the competitive cycling community, many of us suspected or knew that he and so many others were doping. It was a known reality that irritated many, especially having to watch Lance destroy anyone who challenged him while he paraded his lies. The rest of the world didn't want to hear anything negative, so many of us were ostracized for even bringing it up.

This is the beginning of a long awaited justice for the former teammates he has slandered and hurt. I feel for them. I also feel for the many people who have looked up to Armstrong as a roll model, be it cancer patients or young athletes.
Hi Tig-

I'm not too heavily involved in the whole scandal, but after reading this thread I will give props to you for standing firm in your assertions about Armstrong. I never cared enough to really give him a fair shot at innocence, but I think you've been more than fair in your information-gathering. I just wanted to say that you deserve some credit for holding your ground.

[Tig]

Hi Tig-

I'm not too heavily involved in the whole scandal, but after reading this thread I will give props to you for standing firm in your assertions about Armstrong. I never cared enough to really give him a fair shot at innocence, but I think you've been more than fair in your information-gathering. I just wanted to say that you deserve some credit for holding your ground.

Wow, thanks, Eric!

I've had mixed feelings about Lance for some time now. I never wanted to believe that he was mixed up in anything at first. Even if he and everyone were clean, he would likely have won all or most or the 7 TdF's because he is a naturally gifted athlete with an incredible drive. That drive comes from his type double-A personality, which also makes him unbearable in person.

His support for cancer patients has been beyond admirable. I hope the world remembers him for this if nothing else.

What always made me and so many others angry is how he treated so many people who challenged him on the PED allegations. Civil cases were lost by some, and others had their careers lost because of his aggressive attacks.

[R_of_G]

At this point I pretty much see Lance Armstrong as a terrible person that raised a lot of money for cancer research. That act was truly worthwhile regardless of how ethically bankrupt he appears to be otherwise. It's mostly the way he destroyed people's lives and careers sticking to his lies over the years. Perhaps now he can raise money to make up for what he did to all of them.

[marnold]

At this point I pretty much see Lance Armstrong as a terrible person that raised a lot of money for cancer research. That act was truly worthwhile regardless of how ethically bankrupt he appears to be otherwise. It's mostly the way he destroyed people's lives and careers sticking to his lies over the years. Perhaps now he can raise money to make up for what he did to all of them.

Except I read a big investigative article showing how little of the money that is raised actually goes to research.

I was a Lance defender for the most part. Now I feel like an idiot.

[Tig]

Except I read a big investigative article showing how little of the money that is raised actually goes to research.

I was a Lance defender for the most part. Now I feel like an idiot.

Live Strong was focused more on cancer patient support than research.

Don't feel bad for believing in someone that by all appearance, did great things in so many different levels. Honest people expect honesty in others. It hurts, but maintaining faith does that sometimes.

____________________________

The Oprah interview was done really well. They certainly prepared her for it.

Lance was open and answered most of the questions with honesty. He wisely avoided slandering anyone along the way. "The truth shall set you free"

[Zip]

I live near the Hincapie's. A really great family. George and Lance have been friends since they were teenagers. George rode on all 7 of Lance's Tour wins. George is one of the reasons Lance won number 7, in fact. When he said 'Yes, Lance dopes.' that was all I needed to hear. He's not a liar.

[Tig]

I live near the Hincapie's. A really great family. George and Lance have been friends since they were teenagers. George rode on all 7 of Lance's Tour wins. George is one of the reasons Lance won number 7, in fact. When he said 'Yes, Lance dopes.' that was all I needed to hear. He's not a liar.

In the interview, Lance expressed that George's testimony carried the most weight, as he was so credible. When George testified about his and Lance's doping, the case was complete and he knew there was no reason to fight the charges.

I met George at the US Junior Track Nationals when he was still an amateur. He was a friendly, confident kid that everyone knew would go on to great things. He and a few other juniors arrived early and raced in our weekly track races. I drew him in a matched sprint race where he blew my doors off completely. I hope he continues to do well with the family clothing company.

[sunvalleylaw]

Hincapie was my favorite of the Postal Team era (and Discovery) I distinctly remember a cam on a lead car ahead of Hincapie hammering over some cobbles in Belgium. I can't remember what year, leading his team and Lance on to a victorious day. The look of determination on his face as he lead the charge was super inspiring to me. To me, he was always the hero of those teams. I loved watching those races, always knew Lance was kind of an ***, kept my mind open on the doping, and enjoyed the show. Kinda sad that that whole era of racing is so tainted now. Lance was more an ******* about it, but seems like near all the top competitors and teams were involved too.

Of course lies and cheating is wrong, and unfortunately a whole lot of athletes did that in many sports. Marion Jones, who seemed so wholesome and such a good role model, broke my heart when she was caught. Where I really break with Lance was how he treated others that challenged him. People have long memories, and apparently he was much more of a jerk than many caught in the apparently slimy business of bike racing back then. The cheating was a sad business altogether. Unfortunately, Lance distinguished himself by conduct beyond the cheating that others did.

[NWBasser]

He's still tops in my book and over the years he's passed all the tests. That's final to me. I stand by Lance no matter whether he did or not. He's a champion and this is a stupid witch hunt.

What are your thoughts now Spud?

[Spudman]

He's still the best athlete in this arena in my opinion. He just happens to have very low moral standards and a total lack of empathy. Not a great guy, but still a great physical specimen. Contador, De Lucia and others were also doping and they still couldn't beat him.

So, I do appreciate what he accomplished racing, how he brought the sport to the front for Americans, who are the citizens most able to afford to participate in the sport but don't, but I don't begrudge him for doping. I do think the way he treated people was deplorable.

[R_of_G]

Except I read a big investigative article showing how little of the money that is raised actually goes to research.

Interesting. I will have to read up on that. Thanks.



So, I do appreciate what he accomplished racing, how he brought the sport to the front for Americans, who are the citizens most able to afford to participate in the sport but don't...

Of course, now there's a large percentage of Americans who knew little or nothing about the sport and now think of it as the sport where everybody cheats.

[Spudman]

Of course, now there's a large percentage of Americans who knew little or nothing about the sport and now think of it as the sport where everybody cheats.

A lot of them did/do cheat at the pro level, but that doesn't mean that anyone else participating at the local level has to.

[Tig]

It would be catastrophic if the NFL tested at the same level as cycling, which random tests out of season. I remember the commissioner saying he "won't let the players become pin cushions" (blood tests in place of urine tests). Ah, but that's a new thread...

[R_of_G]

A lot of them did/do cheat at the pro level, but that doesn't mean that anyone else participating at the local level has to.

Of course not. The more people publicly condemning the cheaters should hopefully carry the message to the lower levels of the sport.

And Tig is absolutely right, if the NFL had a similar drug-testing regime in place, there'd be no season because too many guys would be suspended. Perhaps the cyclists just need better collective bargaining?

[Spudman]

This doesn't affect the general public the same way that continually testing football players would...because the only people that give a crap about cycling is cyclists. :rollover Did you know that the highest paid and most highly regarded professional athlete in the early 1900s was a cyclist? I would have loved to be competing back then...uh, knowing what I know now.:socool

[Tig]

I read the biography of Marshall "Major" Taylor, the first pro black athlete during that time. I'm not sure how well he was paid, but he dominated the sport.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/32/Taylor-Marshall_1900.png/220px-Taylor-Marshall_1900.png

[Dragon Soaring]

Lance and team did what they had to do to win. It is nothing more nothing less.

He benifited from the most succesful doping program in sports history.

Like it or not US Postal/Discovery kicked the worlds collective buts 7 times during what was/is probably the most doped sporting contest

[Spudman]

I agree.


Lance and team did what they had to do to win. It is nothing more nothing less.

He benifited from the most succesful doping program in sports history.

Like it or not US Postal/Discovery kicked the worlds collective buts 7 times during what was/is probably the most doped sporting contest

[R_of_G]

Lance and team did what they had to do to win. It is nothing more nothing less.

He benifited from the most succesful doping program in sports history.

Like it or not US Postal/Discovery kicked the worlds collective buts 7 times during what was/is probably the most doped sporting contest

I think that'd be fair if Armstrong didn't deny it so vehemently for so long.

If the contention is "everybody cheats, we just did it better" than he shouldn't spend a decade trashing the lives of anyone who was telling a truth you suggest he should be proud of. He should have thanked those people for helping the public see what a phenomenal success he was at cheating.

[Tig]

You crystallized my thoughts.

[Robert]

Crystallized my thoughts too.