Talk me out of it (Squier '51 modding content)

[marnold]

Hey! Remember when we used to talk about Squier '51s all the time?

OK, now that my son has an acoustic, my mind goes back to modding my Squier '51. I like the '51's style enough that I'd like to work with it, but I'm not sure about the money I'd have to sink into it. Here's the things I'd like to do:

1) Replace the bridge with a Wilkinson WTBC
2) Replace the neck/tuners with something like this: http://www.warmoth.com/Showcase/ShowcaseNeck.aspx?Body=1&Shape=4&Type=1&Paint=1&Path=Tele,Warmoth%20Pro,Finish&fWood=1&i=TN5089
3) Swap out the pups
4) Replace the volume pot with a concentric volume/tone

The problem is that when I total all of this up, I keep thinking that I could just get a Charvel Desolation LP-style instead.

The bridge sucks mainly because the screws for the saddle height won't stay in place. The Wilkinson is cheap. The only issue is that I'd have to drill new holes. The neck is because the neck on my Jackson has spoiled me. The Warmoth link above has a really nice neck with jumbo frets, compound radius, etc. I'd have to reverse the nut, but that's trivial. The main problem I have with the original pegs are the tuning ratio.

Pups could be pushed off. I just think that, compared to my Jackson's JB/Jazz combo, the '59s pickups sound wimpy. That and the volume pot thing could be held off.

[marnold]

I just checked and the lefty neck has the adjustment at the heel, which is out for me. They've got a righty one with a 1 5/8" nut in the same thing that would adjust at the side.

[piebaldpython]

'51 Squiers are slide-guitar monsters.....you can leave the neck as is. Ya gotta get it.

[Spudman]

I'd do just the bridge if it's that big of a problem. Have you just tried some Loc Tite to see if those screws stop turning. That's a cheap fix. I've left mine stock except for a chrome HB mounting ring. I'm not a big fan of the round knob to change pickup selection, but I can certainly live with it. I think the thing pretty much rocks hard just the way it is.

Still, you really should get the Charvel. :hungry

[cebreez]

Hey guys! Funny to come across this thread. I've been sitting and staring at my son's 51' Squier I gave him. He just got a new acoustic for Christmas and wanted me to do some work on the Squier. Neither one of us uses the tremolo so the bridge is just locked in place but I am definitely thinking new pickups. Not sure what your thinking marnold but how about a "Texas" hot humbucker at the bridge and a classic tele lipstick at the neck? I think that might actually make that basswood body growl a little bit.

[marnold]

The problem with Loctite is that the saddle is stuck there forever. The new bridge would be less than $30. The neck would be the biggest cost.

Yeah, I'd really like that Charvel, but I'd like to be able to play one first. No place around here carries them.

And Pbp, I've heard many people say that, but I'm not a slide player.

[markb]

Loctite isn't permanent. Get a little bottle of threadlock and dribble onto the screws. It just takes a bit more effort to break the seal when you want to adjust it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0045UQ8GQ/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/278-8309263-7506541?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_r=0M8V7J606MA07GZRVJTR&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_i=B003ZUXQIA

[Eric]

Loctite isn't permanent. Get a little bottle of threadlock and dribble onto the screws. It just takes a bit more effort to break the seal when you want to adjust it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0045UQ8GQ/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/278-8309263-7506541?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_r=0M8V7J606MA07GZRVJTR&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_i=B003ZUXQIA
Agreed. I have some of the non-permanent stuff and, while it takes a little effort to break it once it's dry, it's definitely possible. I just loosened some 1/4" cables recently to do some repair work. I think they come in difference strengths.

Here's my take on your situation (from my experience): either do the cheapest option or nothing at all. Unless you are ridiculously dedicated to the Squier, you will probably just return to your best guitar (DK2M) and play that 90% of the time. There's really no sense in making a Squier '51 into another Jackson. You will never recoup the modding costs if you decide to sell.

That said, if you want to do it just for kicks (and not with the expectation that you will make this into a #1 guitar), it sounds like a good project for learning. You could even try sanding down the existing neck to your preferred profile.

[marnold]

Agreed. I have some of the non-permanent stuff and, while it takes a little effort to break it once it's dry, it's definitely possible. I just loosened some 1/4" cables recently to do some repair work. I think they come in difference strengths.

Hmmm. I thought it was tougher than that. I learned something!


Here's my take on your situation (from my experience): either do the cheapest option or nothing at all. Unless you are ridiculously dedicated to the Squier, you will probably just return to your best guitar (DK2M) and play that 90% of the time. There's really no sense in making a Squier '51 into another Jackson. You will never recoup the modding costs if you decide to sell.

That's a good point about trying to back it into a Jackson. I guess there is some of that. That would be a bad idea (tm).


That said, if you want to do it just for kicks (and not with the expectation that you will make this into a #1 guitar), it sounds like a good project for learning. You could even try sanding down the existing neck to your preferred profile.

And it would be for kicks, more or less. It would never supplant my Jackson. Basically, I'd like to have a good hardtail guitar in addition to my Floyd-equipped one. The problem with sanding the neck is that I'd prefer bigger frets too :)

I go through this phase every so often where I want to mod it and then that feeling goes away. I'll be patient.

[Eric]

Basically, I'd like to have a good hardtail guitar in addition to my Floyd-equipped one.
That makes sense. My gut just tells me that if I was in your situation, I'd rather buy a decent hardtail and be done with it. My level of dedication to any one guitar is very very low, however, so the situation may be entirely different for you.

[marnold]

Ya know, I just sat down and played that '51 for a while. I don't think I really mind the neck or the pickups that much. Maybe just the bridge and be done with it. Hmmm. I really do like the vibe of this guitar.

<Linus Van Pelt>Maybe it's not such a bad guitar after all</Linus Van Pelt>

[Eric]

<Linus Van Pelt>Maybe it's not such a bad guitar after all</Linus Van Pelt>
What would be really amazing is if, when you started playing that guitar, each member of your family started dancing like one of the kids in the school play.

[marnold]

Hmmm. Maybe these might be the answer. No drilling in the body then. I want to hear what the new guy in the other thread thinks about his. One guy on the Squier '51 modding forums complained that it dulled the tone too much, but he will only use brass. This guitar is awfully bright so a little warming certainly wouldn't hurt it. I've got to up the bass and cut back on the presence on my amph when I use it.

http://www.amazon.com/GraphTech-PS-8000-00-Electric-Guitar-String/dp/B0002E4Y9C

[keletcaster]

If anything I think they improve tone & sustain real nice. They reduced my string breakage better then 50% too. Thats originaly why I went to them. I know a lot of players that use them & never heard them called dull sounding. With the nuts they are the closest sounding to bone & way easier to work with. No matter what path you take there will be someone that says its the wrong one. :)

[marnold]

If anything I think they improve tone & sustain real nice. They reduced my string breakage better then 50% too. Thats originaly why I went to them. I know a lot of players that use them & never heard them called dull sounding. With the nuts they are the closest sounding to bone & way easier to work with. No matter what path you take there will be someone that says its the wrong one. :)

Definitely the truth there. Interestingly, I've never broken a string in my life. Of course, most of my life I was a bass player and you have to try pretty hard to break one of those. I'm mainly interested because they would work as a drop-in replacement on the '51 and so I wouldn't have to deal with the bridge rattling ever again. I'm also having very minor issues on a couple of strings with intonation because the adjustment screw is beginning to dig into the string itself.

[marnold]

Well, I noticed that they were down to one set left (from three yesterday) rather than hope that they get more at the same price, I ordered them today. I'll give a report when they come in. If that goes well, I may look at a Tusq or graphite nut.

[keletcaster]

Cool! I bet you like em' That price was good too.

[mrmudcat]

:socoolRev I wholeheartedly agree with keletcaster I choose these alot on my guitar mods never dull sounding fo-sho and increase sustainability always!! I do like some metals and bone for saddles and bridges but most of the times I was chasing the sounds in my head!:socool

[mrmudcat]

:rollover

[marnold]

Well, I got the new saddles and installed them this evening. Those height screws definitely aren't going to move! I also put the .010-.052 set that I had the original plastic nut slotted for. I've got the intonation more or less set. Now with the new strings and new saddles, I'm going to have to let the neck set, adjust the truss rod, and then do the final height settings. After that I can finalize the intonation. It's weird acoustically not hearing hearing the bridge rattle all over the place. I'll be able to listen to it plugged in tomorrow--kids are asleep now.

[marnold]

More tweaking. I forgot how much work can go into finding that balance between string height and fret buzz. I basically played above the 12th fret and tried to set the saddle height to where fret buzz was more or less eliminated. Some is tolerable, but not when it's killing sustain. They basically follow the curvature of the neck. I couldn't help but think this would be easier with a 16" radius :)

Anyway, I checked the neck bow and there's a little too much. I tweaked the truss rod a bit and retuned. Everything seems pretty good now, but I'll let the neck settle for a day before I check it again. I'm glad I taught myself to do my own setups, even though the process is rather tedious.

I also got to play it plugged in. It definitely makes a difference--and a good one at that. The saddles do tame the high-end a bit. For the lack of a better term, it sounds more natural and less metallic/clangy. It is still a fundamentally bright guitar, even more so than my DK2M.

So in the last analysis, I think the $35 was well-spent. The original Squier 51 saddles left a lot to be desired in every way. These are much, much better without breaking the bank. The black saddles look cool against the chrome bridge plate and black pick guard. The only quibble is that I might have to get a couple of slightly shorter screws for the low E and G strings. I'm not worrying about it for now because if they are contacting the strings, it is only barely. Thus the GraphTech PS-8000-00 Electric Guitar String Saver Saddles gain the coveted Rev. Rawk seal of approval.

[Eric]

Cool deal. So are you officially talked out of modding this guitar, or have you officially modded it at this point?

[marnold]

Cool deal. So are you officially talked out of modding this guitar, or have you officially modded it at this point?

Well, not to the extent that I originally thought. I'm still pondering tuners. I don't know if anything else is imminent. Of course, tomorrow things might be different. :-)

[Eric]

Should you decide to replace tuners, I've used these a couple of times and I like them:

http://www.azguitarparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=22

[marnold]

Should you decide to replace tuners, I've used these a couple of times and I like them:

http://www.azguitarparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=22

Any idea on the size or tuning ratio? I can't seem to find specs on them.

A lot of people on the Squier '51 modders forum like these from Stew Mac, along with the requisite bushings:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Gotoh_Tuners/Gotoh_Vintage-style_Oval_Knob_Tuners_6-In-Line.html
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Tuner_parts/Tuner_Bushings/10_5mm_Round_Conversion_Bushings.html

At least with these, I'd know that the tuners/bushings will work for sure with the '51, although I'd have to drill for the set screws. I kind of like the vintage tuner thing where you stick the end of the string in the post and twist from there. My bass tuners are like that.

[marnold]

One thing that surprised me having just played both back to back is how much louder acoustically my '51 is compared to my DK2M. Probably in no small part due to the floating trem and thinner neck. DK2M is still way more fun to play, though :)

[marnold]

Since I've got a little money for my birthday, I've been thinking about getting the conversion bushings and tuners I linked to in post #25. I might just get a new nut while I'm at it because I might as well get as much as I can on a Stew Mac order.

And, yes, I'm back to thinking about pickups again. That'd be more expensive, obviously, but still fun to ponder. My ideas were (basically in order of potential hum :) )
1) SD P-Rails at the bridge and a regular SD single coil
2) Lace Hot Gold Dually (13K/13K, 13K/6K, or 6K/6K) and a single Lace Hot Gold
3) Replicate my old Floyd (sort of) with an SD Screamin' Demon at the bridge and a Dimarzio Area 67

The big argument against #1 is hum potential and it's more difficult to wire to get full use of the P-Rail. That's why I think it's the least likely of the three. The third option is the one I'm most familiar with. Known quantities, I know I'll like both pickups. I'd probably switch the push-pull pot to switch between both pickups in series or parallel. The Lace sensors have always intrigued me. I'd probably opt for the 13K/6K dually so it wouldn't overpower the single one. I'd set it up so that I could use the 13K sensor separately. My only "concern" with them is their inherent compression. My lack of talent could probably use that, though. The juxtaposition of the modern-looking Laces on a throwback-looking guitar is rather delicious too.

I know the many arguments against this. No return on investment, lots of money on a cheap guitar, etc. The thing is that I like the vibe of the guitar. I've got it already. I'd like a hard tail to complement my beloved Jackson. Yet it's different enough from the Jackson so it doesn't seem like I've got two of the same thing. I'd probably also keep the '51 in Eb. Plus, I haven't smelled solder fumes in a while.

[sunvalleylaw]

I think a mod project on a cool, kitschy guitar that you like sounds swell. I say go for it. No talking you out of it coming from me!

[deeaa]

If the neck is an issue due to shape, well just reshape it slightly! Simply sand it to your liking. I would recommend shaving material from below your thumb in the normal playing position only, i.e. only shave the upper portion of the neck behind the E string to more of a / shape instead of (. That makes the neck feel very thin but still fills the hand nicely. It's amazing how great a difference just a little shaving can do, just 1,5-2mm off and the feel is completely different.

[deeaa]

Like this, the modded neck shape on the right. Maybe a little exaggerated here but the idea.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mA-SlNW3ruo/URn9GlNSz7I/AAAAAAAAH1c/cj9rwLHoqqE/s912/neckp.jpg

Really works well for me!

[marnold]

Judging from the silhouette, I can see why you like that shape :)

The more I play it, the more I realize the neck isn't a big issue. I would like bigger frets for sure, but that's not a deal-breaker. The bridge was and the new saddles took care of that. The tuners are the next thing. Actually my Jackson's tuners aren't much better, but with a locking nut they are all but irrelevant except at string changes.

[marnold]

Hmmm, or maybe a Fred instead of the Screamin' Demon . . . hmmm.

[marnold]

OK, I've got a 13K/13K Lace Hot Gold Dually and a single 6K Hot Gold in my MF shopping cart. Your time to talk me out of it or encourage me in my madness is rapidly running out. Must order before it's no longer the 18th . . .

[Eric]

So you don't like the '51 as is? I don't find pickups to make that big of a difference.

(This is me talking you out of it.)

[marnold]

(This is me talking you out of it.)

Hehe. Well played.

But, the order was just placed. Clips to follow once a) they get here and b) I can get my soldering iron fired up. I'll wire up the push-pull to shunt one of the Dually coils to ground, making it a standard 13K Hot Gold. I was convinced to buy the 13K/13K instead of the 6K/6K when I watched a video on YouTube where someone had a Strat loaded with Hot Golds (including a 13K bridge) and a neck-on mod. I thought the bridge+neck tones were really nice. Also MF had this one in stock whereas the other one wouldn't be available until the end of March. If it turns out to be too much, I can return it within 45 days and get the other one.

[marnold]

Well, the pickups are in! I forgot what solder smells like. I had a bit of an issue with the Dually. When I grounded one of the ground wires, the pickup cut out entirely. One call to Lace later and it turns out one of the leads got pinched in the pickup cavity when I installed it.

Initial impressions are that the Dually is big and powerful and more in the low mids than my JB in my Jackson, while still retaining nice highs. Split into one 13K hot gold, it sounds not unlike a hot Tele bridge pickup, which is good because I like that. The neck pickup I think sounds more single coil-like than my old Area 61s did. The Lace are low noise but not no noise, so it's much better than my old single coil, but not dead quiet like the Area 61s were. The middle position, whether one coil or two at the bridge, is very nice.

Much more "testing" is required, of course :) Basically the bridge pickup is a massive, dramatic change. It went from being a high-end heavy PAF-ish pup to a fire breather.

[marnold]

Here's a link to the thread with clips: http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php/21295-Lace-Hot-Gold-Now-with-Clips!

I also placed a StewMac order for tuners, bushings, nut, and a Switchcraft jack. The jack I mainly added for kicks since the current one seems to be functioning fine. It was less than four bucks, so no biggie.

The cost for everything (not counting my installation time) will be:
Squier '51 $99 (technically free since it was a Christmas gift)

Parts
Lace Hot Gold single coil $66.60 (spooky!)
Lace Hot Gold dually $88.20
GraphTech saddles $34.29
Gotoh tuners $37.92
TUSQ XL nut $13.35
Conversion bushings $7.87
Switchcraft jack $3.64
StewMac shipping $9.75

Parts Total $261.62
Grand Total with guitar original cost $360.62

The pickups came from Musicians' Friend and were the lion's share of the overall cost. Thankfully I got 10% off for their President's Day sale. The saddles came from Amazon. The remaining parts are coming from StewMac. I don't think that the total is bad overall. Of course, if I had to have all of this professionally installed it would be much more expensive. Have soldering iron, will travel.

By way of comparison, you can get a new MIM Fender for about $499 from MF. There would be compromises WRT to pickups and jack and maybe nut and tuners too. There would be no point in doing this if I didn't like the guitar on a fundamental level. I think the '51 is just plain cool. It gives me a lot of tonal flexibility and is an excellent counterpart to my Jackson DK2M.

About the only other thing I might do it swap out the volume pot for one with a smoother taper, but that's a something for another day. That would be a trivial cost relative to everything else. I also got Fender/Schaller strap locks for it back when I first got it, but I have no idea what I paid for them. I put those on all of my guitars that I've ever owned.

[marnold]

Today I broke down and took it to a luthier to install the Gotoh tuners. I had a hard time finding an afternoon to devote to the project. Plus the supplied screws were so long, I was afraid that I'd drill through the entire headstock. Ended up being $25+tax, which works for me. They do seem to be easier to zone in whilst tuning. I've got brand new strings on there, so it's still a little hard to tell until the strings finish stretching out entirely. The tuners are much stiffer than the original ones. You're certainly not going to bump them out of tune. They are also the "vintage" style where you start winding the string by sticking the end in the top of the post. That should make string changes quicker.

[Robert]

Always nice to have someone else do the dirty work, rather than doing it yourself! That's how I feel most of the time...

[marnold]

Today I broke down and took it to a luthier to install the Gotoh tuners. I had a hard time finding an afternoon to devote to the project. Plus the supplied screws were so long, I was afraid that I'd drill through the entire headstock. Ended up being $25+tax, which works for me. They do seem to be easier to zone in whilst tuning. I've got brand new strings on there, so it's still a little hard to tell until the strings finish stretching out entirely. The tuners are much stiffer than the original ones. You're certainly not going to bump them out of tune. They are also the "vintage" style where you start winding the string by sticking the end in the top of the post. That should make string changes quicker.

After a good amount of time with these tuners, I can say that they were definitely worth the upgrade. It stays in tune much better now and it is easier to get into tune in the first place. It still isn't going to replace my Jackson as my #1, but I now enjoy playing it much more. When I switch to it from the Jackson, I no longer feel as great a drop-off (or as great a desire to put it down and pick the Jackson back up). The Hot Golds are also enough different from the JB/Jazz combo that I get a good amount of tonal diversity.

[Eric]

After a good amount of time with these tuners, I can say that they were definitely worth the upgrade. It stays in tune much better now and it is easier to get into tune in the first place. It still isn't going to replace my Jackson as my #1, but I now enjoy playing it much more. When I switch to it from the Jackson, I no longer feel as great a drop-off (or as great a desire to put it down and pick the Jackson back up). The Hot Golds are also enough different from the JB/Jazz combo that I get a good amount of tonal diversity.

Cool deal. Since you're now into multiple instruments, do you want to buy a bass or cab from me? I have one too many of each of them.

[marnold]

Cool deal. Since you're now into multiple instruments, do you want to buy a bass or cab from me? I have one too many of each of them.

Well, I've already got a bass that I'm quite happy with. One's enough for me.