PDA

View Full Version : OK, you Tube Screamer aficionados....



duhvoodooman
February 3rd, 2007, 07:08 PM
There has long been a debate about which IC chip, a.k.a. "opamp", sounds best in the Tube Screamer and it's many clones and derivatives. Well, here's a chance to hear for yourself the difference between several different opamps and pick your favorite. Below is a link to an audio clip I recorded using my Zonkin' Yellow Screamer, in between my Strat and my Delta Blues amp. The clip starts with a clean run-through, followed by the same sequence played through six (6) different opamps.

Now, I'm not going to tell you what they are, other than to say they're all different and one of them is the JRC4558D that is the model used in the original TS-808. It's not a "NOS" chip, but from what I've read, that doesn't make much if any difference anyway.

Take a listen and vote for your favorite. And make any other editorial comments you wish, such as how they sound vs. each other, which one you like least, etc. Once everybody who is interested has had their shot, I'll tell you what/which the 6 are....

The clip is HERE (http://www.box.net/public/qdy90yanft).

*** EDIT 2/4 ***

Suppose I ought to give a few details on how things were set up for the recording. Recorded using my Strat on the bridge-middle-in-series pickup setting and tone settings at about 7.5. Delta Blues on the clean channel and the volume down low; B = 7, M = 10, T = 8, reverb = 7. The ZYS was set up as follows:


Gain Range - Normal
Bass Rolloff - 340 Hz (slight bass boost vs.TS stock)
Clipping Diodes - Silicon (TS stock, except asymmetric)
Level - 10:30 o'clock
Drive - 3 o'clock (~80%)
Tone - 12 o'clock

Amp was mic'ed into my sound card and recording/editing was done with Audacity.

marnold
February 3rd, 2007, 07:39 PM
My favorites (in order) are probably #1, #6, #5. #1 is very smooth. #6 has a more bite and better note definition, IMO. So what do I win?

Mark
February 3rd, 2007, 11:48 PM
Im diggin 1 and 6 the best.

NPauly
February 4th, 2007, 05:32 AM
There are subtle differences, but that could also be from the sequence being played slightly different each time. None of them really stands out ... IMHO

(they're all the same opamp -- wouldn't that be funny)

The differences are so subtle that I highly doubt they would even make a difference in a recording studio, much less live. Could it be that the different opamps respond drastically differently to different components -- one opamp sound wonderful with certain components, but sounds horrible when paired with others, and vice versa, etc etc etc ...

F_BSurfer
February 4th, 2007, 07:12 AM
Hard to say which I like best between 4, 5, 6 I've only listen to the clips about 5 times 1 has the biggest differances than the rest the last three seem more balanced on the low mid and high tones.........oh heck I'll take #5

warren0728
February 4th, 2007, 07:53 AM
on first run through i think i liked 2 or 3 the best....they all sounded good though...

ww

Hogfullofblues
February 4th, 2007, 08:11 AM
Hmmm...
Surprising to me, but I can't hear a whole lot of diff between them, and then I'm not quite sure what exactly is making that slight change. And they all sound good.
In order to actually vote then, I'm afraid you will have to send me a Zonkin Yellow Screamer for further extensive long term testing. I'll return it, promise. http://bestsmileys.com/wink/2.gif

tot_Ou_tard
February 4th, 2007, 09:05 AM
Yup, there's a difference between them.

The lick has two regions, the single note melody in the first half and some chords at the end. So I suggest discussing this based on how the setting handles each portion. BTW, I still say that I would select (0) = off a lot. That is sweet clean playing. I only had time to listen focusing on the rythm work.
I'll try to come back & leave my initial impressions on the leads later.


Lead:
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)

Rythm:

1) Nice breaking up tone. Still has some of the ringout on the last chord.
2) More breakup and a tad darker.
3) A little tighter, but not like 4 & 5.
4) Brighter and tighter with less sustain. More modern and even.
5) Similar to 4 but darker.
6) This one is darker than all the rest & is my least favorite.

I'd choose 1) for a vintage sound & 4) for a more modern sound here.

duhvoodooman
February 4th, 2007, 09:05 AM
There are subtle differences, but that could also be from the sequence being played slightly different each time. None of them really stands out....The differences are so subtle that I highly doubt they would even make a difference in a recording studio, much less live...
This is my opinion, exactly. The differences seem very subtle, easily overwhelmed by other factors. Given what I've heard, the debate over which opamp is "the best" for a Tube Screamer seems pretty silly. At least so far.


Could it be that the different opamps respond drastically differently to different components -- one opamp sound wonderful with certain components, but sounds horrible when paired with others, and vice versa, etc etc etc....
That's an interesting thought, one that I've also considered. I haven't played nearly enough through all of these opamps to be able to say yea or nay. I may fool around with them on one of my humbucker guitars and through my Valve Jr. today to see if I pick up any additional differences.


(they're all the same opamp -- wouldn't that be funny)
Nope, six different IC's, I swear!

Tinky-Winky
February 4th, 2007, 11:25 AM
The thing that surprised me was that though there were definable differences, ALL the settings sounded good to me - having read some discussions on which IC is best I expected some of these to sound mediocre.

duhvoodooman
February 4th, 2007, 11:52 AM
Yes, there are very definitely audible differences. I guess it comes down to the question of are they significant or not? I would agree with your statement that they all sound good. And reading some of the comparative language in the TS "lore", you'd think some of them would sound amazing and others would stink. Clearly not the case, IMO....

duhvoodooman
February 4th, 2007, 12:10 PM
OK, here's a couple of more clips I just finished using my Valve Jr. and my Epi Dot. I picked this combo for a darker overall sound, in addition to it being a humbucker guitar vs. the first clip using my Strat. I have the volume way down on the VJr. to keep it from coloring the sound with any breakup. The Dot was played in the dual pickup position with the tone settings midway. Throughout the two recordings, I had the ZYS set up as follows:


Gain Range - Normal
Bass Rolloff - 720 Hz (TS stock)
Clipping Diodes - Silicon (TS stock, except asymmetric)
Level - 10 o'clock
Drive - 3 o'clock (~80%)
Tone - 12 o'clock

The first clip is a single note lead up high on the neck--once clean, then six times with the different opamps. The second clip is the familiar ZZ Top Tush rhythm line a couple of times through, and I hold the last chord for a bit.

The order of the six opamps is different than in the original Strat clip and different between the two clips, so don't make any assumptions on what you're hearing in the three clips based upon the order! Here are the links to the clips:


Dot Lead (http://www.box.net/public/v53ipmo9hr)

Dot Rhythm (http://www.box.net/public/72zyx0m2la)

SuperSwede
February 4th, 2007, 12:11 PM
All of them sounds really good! But if I had to pick one, it would have been 4.

marnold
February 4th, 2007, 05:10 PM
All of them sounds really good! But if I had to pick one, it would have been 4.
Yeah, I'd say #4 or #5. I'd be interested to see how that would agree (or not) with my previous selections.

duhvoodooman
February 4th, 2007, 07:00 PM
Yeah, I'd say #4 or #5. I'd be interested to see how that would agree (or not) with my previous selections.
On the lead or rhythm clip?? The order of the opamps is different between the two!

Tone2TheBone
February 4th, 2007, 09:44 PM
When I get to work tomorrow with a faster server I will have a listen. :)

SuperSwede
February 5th, 2007, 04:21 AM
On the lead or rhythm clip?? The order of the opamps is different between the two!

I was talking about the first clips...

NPauly
February 5th, 2007, 08:34 AM
To my ears there is more of a difference between the opamps with the humbuckers than with the single coils, but the differences are still too subtle to make much of a difference in most situations. I could use any of those opamps and after tweaking my playing, amp settings, guitar settings, etc be happy with the result. In other words they are all an excellent starting point for finding a good tone -- just pick one and tweak as necessary.

It would be a completely different story if one or two of the opamps stood out from the rest as being either drastically superior or inferior. And then I would completely agree that using the noticeably different opamps would definitely have an impact on your tone, but as things currently stand they are all extremely usable and all provide an excellent foundation for dialing in a usable and pleasing tone.

marnold
February 5th, 2007, 09:18 AM
On the lead or rhythm clip?? The order of the opamps is different between the two!
I was referring to the rhythm clip.

duhvoodooman
February 6th, 2007, 06:30 AM
OK, if anybody wants to add an opinion or comment before I post the listing of what opamp was used where, do it soon. I'll post them later today....

tot_Ou_tard
February 6th, 2007, 07:22 AM
It would be a completely different story if one or two of the opamps stood out from the rest as being either drastically superior or inferior. And then I would completely agree that using the noticeably different opamps would definitely have an impact on your tone, but as things currently stand they are all extremely usable and all provide an excellent foundation for dialing in a usable and pleasing tone.

What NPauly said!

duhvoodooman
February 6th, 2007, 08:55 PM
OK, interested Fretters, here's the lowdown. The six opamps I used are as follows:


JRC4558D - NJR Corp. (original TS-808 IC)
RC4558P - Texas Instruments (included in the BYOC kit & a popular TS clone chip)
RC4559P - Texas Instruments
TL072CP - Texas Instruments
LM833N - ST Microelectronics (low noise; good for high gain)
OPA2134PA - Burr Brown (a ringer; an audiophile chip costing 5 to 10x the price of the others)

Here is the order they were played in each of the three audio clips:


http://duhvoodooman.com/miscimages/musical/opamp_order.gif

My favorites are the RC4558P, RC4559P and LM833N, though the differences are pretty minute. The Burr Brown chip sounds nice on single note passages, but lacks "authority" (for want of a better word) on chording, IMO. Your mileage may vary!! ;) :DR

marnold
February 7th, 2007, 09:26 AM
OK, interested Fretters, here's the lowdown. The six opamps I used are as follows:


JRC4558D - NJR Corp. (original TS-808 IC)
RC4558P - Texas Instruments (included in the BYOC kit & a popular TS clone chip)
RC4559P - Texas Instruments
TL072CP - Texas Instruments
LM833N - ST Microelectronics (low noise; good for high gain)
OPA2134PA - Burr Brown (a ringer; an audiophile chip costing 5 to 10x the price of the others)

Here is the order they were played in each of the three audio clips:


http://duhvoodooman.com/miscimages/musical/opamp_order.gif
Very interesting! Maybe my ear is better than I thought. In both cases, I chose the original TS-808 chip and the "ringer." I also liked the LM833N one. The reason why I preferred those ones is because they have some "smoother" distortion than the RC chips. Not that any of them were bad. In a live situation maybe the RC ones might cut through the mix a bit better.

Say DVM, is that JRC4558D used in the reissued TS-808s currently available from Ibanez or just the old, collectible, originals? If it isn't the JRC, what one are they using these days?

duhvoodooman
February 7th, 2007, 11:57 AM
Very interesting! Maybe my ear is better than I thought. In both cases, I chose the original TS-808 chip and the "ringer." I also liked the LM833N one. The reason why I preferred those ones is because they have some "smoother" distortion than the RC chips. Not that any of them were bad. In a live situation maybe the RC ones might cut through the mix a bit better.
I agree--the RC chips have a little more grit, which I like for chord work. I guess I kind of lean toward that edgier sound 'cuz afterall, it's distortion I'm looking for with an OD pedal. Gotta admit that Burr Brown chip sounds mighty good on single note work, though.


Say DVM, is that JRC4558D used in the reissued TS-808s currently available from Ibanez or just the old, collectible, originals? If it isn't the JRC, what one are they using these days?
It's a current production JRC4558D chip, made by NJR Corp, formerly Japan Radio Corp., which is where the "JRC" comes from. This was the original supplier for the TS-808, though not all 808's contain this chip, from what I've read. At least 3 versions were used, since the the Ibanez print only specified a "4558 chip", but the JRC is by far the most common. There are NOS versions of this chip available (at exhorbitant prices, as you might imagine), and industrious folks often rip apart old Japanese audio equipment from the early 80's to "harvest" used versions of these original JRC4558D chips. The claim is made that, since NJR moved the production location some years back, current production of this chip is somehow "different" than the old version. Smells like BS to me! I suspect that many of the people who promote these claims probably have a financial stake in perpetuating the aura of superiority of the NOS version. I think my little audio clip experiment demonstrated how subtle the differences are, even between different models of opamps. Now somebody is gonna tell me that the same model/design made by the same company in two different manufacturing locations are going to have audibly significant differences?? Sorry, I ain't buying it!

For anyone interested in reading up on this subject in more detail, HERE (http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/articles/opamps.htm) is a great article by Andreas Moller, who I've found to be a very knowledgeable & objective guy who calls 'em as he sees 'em.

Tone2TheBone
February 7th, 2007, 12:25 PM
I think you said I liked the Burr Brown Voo when I heard your files. I too prefer a smooth overdrive. There was something transparent in that BB chip that I liked.

marnold
February 7th, 2007, 04:54 PM
It's a current production JRC4558D chip, made by NJR Corp, formerly Japan Radio Corp., which is where the "JRC" comes from. This was the original supplier for the TS-808, though not all 808's contain this chip, from what I've read. At least 3 versions were used, since the the Ibanez print only specified a "4558 chip", but the JRC is by far the most common.
According to http://www.webphases.com/simon/4558.jpg this picture from this review (http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?session=9a1093ac5e98b7b3ac22f344e3cd8 118&Cat=&Number=221049&Main=207733), my Behringer has some version of the 4558 chip, although it doesn't appear to be a JRC one.


For anyone interested in reading up on this subject in more detail, HERE (http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/articles/opamps.htm) is a great article by Andreas Moller, who I've found to be a very knowledgeable & objective guy who calls 'em as he sees 'em.
Good article with lots of stuff to think about.

The long and the short of it is that if my TO800 would puke on me, I would probably just get a TS808 reissue (or maybe a ZYS of my very own :) ).