PDA

View Full Version : Fender Champion 600



tot_Ou_tard
July 1st, 2007, 06:05 AM
My Champ 600, just came in!

It's not too loud to crank during the day. Much quiter and less gain than an Epi VJ, from what I hear. I've never played a VJ.

I live in a townhouse & play in the basement.

So far, I really like the sound. On the low input when dimed it is just into grind territory, but it can be pushed into either a fuller or more saturated sound with my Twin Tube Classic or my Bad Monkey (or both!).

It is rich and bright, but not too bright.

My other amp is an AD30VT and I am used to controlling gain and tone via the amps knobs. With the 600 I crank the amp and use the guitars volume and tone to acheive what I want. Since it has a nice high end, you can easily get darker tones by rolling back the tone knob.

The sucker is teeny, tiny and is easy to cart around.

Mine buzzes a bit when plugged into the low input and quite a lot when plugged into the high input.

It was clear from the way it was packaged that it was previously returned by another customer.

I've bought some nice tubes to try, but I am waiting to decide whether I want to exchange it & see if I get one with less buzz.

Are there any safety precautions I should observe when I replace the 12AX7 or the 6V6?

oldguy
July 1st, 2007, 11:24 AM
Glad to hear you like your new amp. Sounds like a sweet deal.
Safety.... shut the amp off and unplug it.
Let the amp cool down so the tubes don't burn your fingers.
Work the tubes back and forth gently to get them out.
Pay attention to the pin alignment on the 12ax7 as you're removing it, so you can put it back properly.

tot_Ou_tard
July 2nd, 2007, 05:43 AM
Glad to hear you like your new amp. Sounds like a sweet deal.
Safety.... shut the amp off and unplug it.
Let the amp cool down so the tubes don't burn your fingers.
Work the tubes back and forth gently to get them out.
Pay attention to the pin alignment on the 12ax7 as you're removing it, so you can put it back properly.
So nothing other than what I thought. Thanks Oldguy!

Yeah, its a lot of fun. I like it more each time I play it.

Tone2TheBone
July 2nd, 2007, 09:18 AM
What size speaker is that thing?

warren0728
July 2nd, 2007, 12:22 PM
stopped by guitar center last night to try one and they were out of stock....said they can't keep them in stock

ww

tot_Ou_tard
July 2nd, 2007, 07:59 PM
What size speaker is that thing?
6 wee tiny itsy bitsy inches. :D

Tone2TheBone
July 3rd, 2007, 11:34 AM
6 wee tiny itsy bitsy inches. :D

Is that all? Mmmm too small for me. I hope you're enjoying it though congrats.

oldguy
July 3rd, 2007, 07:55 PM
Is that all? Mmmm too small for me. I hope you're enjoying it though congrats.


Not me. I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger on one of these. I LOVE the sound of the 6V6 tube pushed to slight breakup. They resonate at a different frequency than an EL-84, it's a g-o-o-d sound.
Heck, you could always run it through a 2x12 (or bigger) cab if you wanted.
Or run it through a Hotplate and use the line out into a bigger amp or PA system. Yep, I think I might...
I need one, no..... I want one...... hey, it's a Fender..... yep.....

tot_Ou_tard
July 4th, 2007, 06:18 AM
It doesn't sound boxy to me and the bass is there in a balanced way.

It doesn't have a deep full shake the timbers bottom.

The volume is perfect for what i use it for & it sounds really nice at low volumes.

So far, I mainly use the low input and push it with pedals if I want full saturation.

The Twin Tube Classic works great for this.

I'm still trying to decide if it is worth exchanging it in an attempt to get one with less buzz.

tot_Ou_tard
August 5th, 2007, 05:18 PM
I've decided to keep it. I love the little sucker. I've been trying several NOS tubes in it. Well worth the money.

Here's a heads up for all those that want to change the 12AX7 preamp tube.

The metal casing is glued on. Just wiggle it for O, say 15-20 minutes, & it'll twist off.

Tone2TheBone
November 5th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Cool tOt. Does it sound as decent as this one? If so I know what I want for Christmas.

lBU7YYS0yHE

I love that shimmer. Way better sounding than a Valve Jr. It sounds great with that Tele. In terms of volume tOt just how loud can it get? Enough to freak you out if you played power chords on it? I loved that sound on the vid and it manages to sound very Fendery.

Mr Grumpy
July 25th, 2008, 02:42 PM
I have to try one of these things. All the clips ive found have impressed and I love that snappy fender tone, been really living on the tweed settings on my AD30 and toneport of late - Ive found them the warmest and most versatile for my 2 electrics (and my 2 ears). The champ seems to be just what Ive been looking for. Might have to sell the Vox though, for space and domestic harmony reasons.........

tot_Ou_tard
July 26th, 2008, 12:21 PM
Cool tOt. Does it sound as decent as this one? If so I know what I want for Christmas.


I love that shimmer. Way better sounding than a Valve Jr. It sounds great with that Tele. In terms of volume tOt just how loud can it get? Enough to freak you out if you played power chords on it? I loved that sound on the vid and it manages to sound very Fendery.
I missed this post of yours Tone.

Yup, mine does that shimmering thing. I sometimes just stand there grinning after I play a passage & let the shimmer wash over me.

The 6in speaker might not be to your liking, but as far as I'm concerned that's one of it's features. You can get the power tubes cooking at a lower volume than with an 8 or 12 inch speaker.

As far as freaking you out with power chords, I don't know what it takes to do that to you ;).

Danzego
July 28th, 2008, 06:33 PM
Oooh, nice. I spent all of my Blues Jr. amp money on building a new computer (my other one was six years old) since Fender raised the price on the thing almost 25% at the end of last year and Guitar Center went to fixed pricing (not a good combination). But THIS...this sounds good, little enough to let loose a bit in the house, and I might be able to save up for this a little easier...

...provided Fender doesn't crank the price on this one, too. :mad:

Ch0jin
July 28th, 2008, 07:11 PM
Danzego, if it helps, just keep telling yourself "It's so much cheaper than a vintage champ, in fact compared to those these are a total bargain..."

Danzego
August 25th, 2008, 10:54 AM
Ok, I finally pulled the trigger on one of these babies. I got a 10% off anything coupon on the back of the latest Guitar Center catalog and I received a promotional $25 gift card in the mail from them the other day for this past weekend (buying that US Strat Standard apparently made me a "preferred customer").

They let me stack those two deals, so that made the amp $155. An offer I couldn't refuse. :AOK:

It sounds great, btw. Anyone considering it, definitely stop by your local store and try one out. Cranking it up does give a nice snap, but it's definitely going to take a pedal to get some hair going. Now I just have to figure out which pedal I want to do that with.


Oh, and what do you guys mean when you say "shimmer"? I've heard this many times from people referring to tube amps, but this being my first true tube amp (not a hybrid, like my Vox AVT50), I don't know what I'm listening for. Hints? Clues? :confused:

tunghaichuan
September 2nd, 2008, 01:20 PM
tot,

Did you return the Champ or keep it? What tubes have you tried?


My Champ 600, just came in!

It's not too loud to crank during the day. Much quiter and less gain than an Epi VJ, from what I hear. I've never played a VJ.


The EL84 as in the VJ is a high gain tube, it doesn't take much signal to turn it on full blast. The 6V6 is lower gain and I believe the tone network in the Champ 600 cuts down the gain even further.



Are there any safety precautions I should observe when I replace the 12AX7 or the 6V6?

Just wait till they are cool enough to handle, and make sure they are seated firmly into the sockets. Oh yeah, make sure the amp is off when you change them.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
September 2nd, 2008, 02:57 PM
tot,

Did you return the Champ or keep it? What tubes have you tried?

tung
I kept it.

I've got an NOS RCA blackplate Triple Mica 5751 as the preamp tube & a NOS RCA JAN 6V6GT/VT107A power tube.

Spudman
September 2nd, 2008, 05:17 PM
I just stumbled across this demo and he's using the new Squier Classic Vibe Tele too.
zVGWICF5-i8

tot_Ou_tard
September 2nd, 2008, 05:53 PM
Sweet, sweet, sweet. Thanks Spud!

Someday I'm gonna upgrade the transformer on mine.

tunghaichuan
September 2nd, 2008, 06:22 PM
Someday I'm gonna upgrade the transformer on mine.

I was just in Guitar Center today and happened to look in the back of the cabinet. There is not a lot of room for a new OT. I doubt if a Hammond 125CSE would fit in there. If I had to guess, I would guess that the mounting centers are 2 & 3/8", but you might want to measure for yourself.

One OT that might work is the Fender Champ 12 replacement OT. It is a 10watt unit that has 2 & 3/8" mounting centers, but it is about 1" taller than the stock OT. It also only has an 8ohm secondary, so you'd have to find an 6", 8 ohm replacement. It is also kind of expensive, about $40-$50 IIRC.

Another OT option is this one:

http://store.triodestore.com/tfchxfwi48oh.html

It has a 4 ohm tap and an 8 ohm.

Finally there is this one:

http://www.turretboards.com/valve_junior_page.htm#heyboer%20replacement%20OT

Again, kind of pricey, but it is a Heyboer, so it will sound good. It has 4/8/16 ohm secondaries. It it is billed as a Valve Junior replacement, but with the 6.6k primary, it is more suited for use with a 6V6.

Let me know if I can be of any help when you decide to change out your OT.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
September 2nd, 2008, 07:28 PM
tung,

I'd love to hear more about how OT's affect the sound. I have no experience & find it difficult to imagine what they would do.

What exactly does a tap mean? Are these wires that one needs to solder onto a jack? I'd love to have flexibility to use the Champ 600 as a head so 4/8/16 Ohm outputs seems like a great idea. Is it possible to have all three readily available?

tunghaichuan
September 2nd, 2008, 08:03 PM
I'd love to hear more about how OT's affect the sound. I have no experience & find it difficult to imagine what they would do.


Basically all an OT does is convert a high voltage, high impedance, low current signal into a low voltage, low impedance, high current signal that can drive a loud speaker. It is an interface between the high impedance tubes and the low impedance loud speaker. An OT is basically two coils of wire. An AC signal across one of the coils superimposes itself on the second. The primary connects to the tube(s) anode(s). The secondary connects to the speaker.

Generally a specific tube likes to "see" a specific primary impedance, or impedance range. It is a trade off between maximum power out (which most guitar amps go for) and lowest distortion (which most tube hifi goes for). 6V6s in single ended operation, like your Champ 600, work well from 5K to 7.5K.

Single Ended EL84 circuits like about 4K-5K. The original Valve Junior OT was 7.5K and it sounded terrible in that circuit. The new VJ OTs are 5.2K and sound *much* better.

Physical size is also a factor. The Hammond 125ESE, which is about 4 times the size of the stock VJ OT sounds much better than the stock OT. The highs and lows are much smoother. Which brings us to physical construction. The better the materials used in an OT, the better it sounds.



What exactly does a tap mean? Are these wires that one needs to solder onto a jack? I'd love to have flexibility to use the Champ 600 as a head so 4/8/16 Ohm outputs seems like a great idea. Is it possible to have all three readily available?

Taps can be either on the primary or secondary. The primary and secondary are merely long coils of insulated wire. A tap refers to a connection of another wire somewhere along its length. Usually a tap on the primary (tube side of the circuit) is an ultra linear tap, which is mostly used in hifi circuits, but has been used in a few guitar circuits, notably some early 70s Fenders and the Dr Z Route 66.

Taps on the secondary are for interfacing with 4, 8, & 16 ohm speaker loads.

Your Champ has one speaker out jack, no? I'm not sure if there is enough room to add two more jacks or not, you'll have to check. Another option is that you might be able to shoehorn an impedance selector switch into the amp so you can have a selectable impedance out, a la Marshall. My personal preference is to have three separate jacks as there is no switch to fail.

I really need to save up some cash and buy either the Champ 600, or the Gretsch G5222 which is the same amp with different cosmetics.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
September 2nd, 2008, 08:24 PM
Your Champ has one speaker out jack, no? I'm not sure if there is enough room to add two more jacks or not, you'll have to check. Another option is that you might be able to shoehorn an impedance selector switch into the amp so you can have a selectable impedance out, a la Marshall. My personal preference is to have three separate jacks as there is no switch to fail.

tung
It's fantastic to have you back tung!

Yes, it has one speaker out jack. Maybe I should wait until I have a cab to change the OT.

Does a beefier OT make the amp louder? I don't really want it to be louder. The volume works very well for me.

tunghaichuan
September 2nd, 2008, 08:48 PM
It's fantastic to have you back tung!


Thanks, good to be back.



Yes, it has one speaker out jack. Maybe I should wait until I have a cab to change the OT.


If the OT you get is much taller than the stock OT, that may be a good plan. It looks like the speaker magnet is fairly close to the top of the OT.



Does a beefier OT make the amp louder? I don't really want it to be louder. The volume works very well for me.

Theoretically, no. The power tube and speaker's sensitivity rating determine how loud the amp is. Having said that, you may get more perceived loudness due to the extended highs and lows of the beefier OT. But again, the speaker can only reproduce sound in its bandwidth. You're not going to get thunderous lows out of a 6" speakers.

BTW, the speaker really is a limiting factor in bass response. I used to run a Silverface Champ into a 4 ohm 4X12" cab and had no problems getting massive amounts of bass out of that little 5W circuit.

I did a quick check on the net and found that the Eminence Alpha 6A is a 6", 8 ohm speaker. It has a sensitivity rating of 93 which is a lot less than the 97-100 of most speakers. It is also rated at 100 watts :eek: I wonder if it would fit in that cabinet?

tung

tot_Ou_tard
September 3rd, 2008, 06:13 AM
Theoretically, no. The power tube and speaker's sensitivity rating determine how loud the amp is. Having said that, you may get more perceived loudness due to the extended highs and lows of the beefier OT. But again, the speaker can only reproduce sound in its bandwidth. You're not going to get thunderous lows out of a 6" speakers.

BTW, the speaker really is a limiting factor in bass response. I used to run a Silverface Champ into a 4 ohm 4X12" cab and had no problems getting massive amounts of bass out of that little 5W circuit.

I did a quick check on the net and found that the Eminence Alpha 6A is a 6", 8 ohm speaker. It has a sensitivity rating of 93 which is a lot less than the 97-100 of most speakers. It is also rated at 100 watts :eek: I wonder if it would fit in that cabinet?

tung
If perceived loudness is only due to some extension of the frequency response, I can live with that for benefit. Yes, I know that a 6' speaker is the limiting factor. Someday, I'll get a cab.

I have a Weber 6" AlNiCo in there now which I am very happy with. I don't want it quieter, just not too much louder.

tot_Ou_tard
September 4th, 2008, 06:02 PM
On another forum some players have discussed replacing the grill cloth on these.

They claim that the thick material mutes the sound.

Is this nonsense or could this be worth doing?

Here's a review:

http://guitargear.org/2008/03/03/review-fender-champion-600-post-mortem/

tunghaichuan
September 6th, 2008, 07:15 AM
I don't know if this has been posted, but here goes:

http://300guitars.com/index.php/articles/diy-hot-rodding-the-new-fender-champion-600/

As far as the grill cloth goes, how thick is it? How close is the weave?

tung

tot_Ou_tard
September 6th, 2008, 08:01 AM
I don't know if this has been posted, but here goes:

http://300guitars.com/index.php/articles/diy-hot-rodding-the-new-fender-champion-600/

As far as the grill cloth goes, how thick is it? How close is the weave?

tung

There's no weave, it's faux suede & seems rather thick.

tunghaichuan
September 6th, 2008, 09:16 AM
There's no weave, it's faux suede & seems rather thick.

Hmm....

How is the grill cloth attached? Would it be easy to remove? Most importantly, how does the amp sound through the grill cloth? I know Antique Electronic Supply sells acoustically transparent grill cloth, but the question is: would it be worth it?

tung

tunghaichuan
September 14th, 2008, 08:36 PM
Picked up my Champ 600 today.

After about 20 minutes of scraping, I still could not get the preamp tube shield off. I ended up removing the screws holding it down and removing both the collar and the shield. I had a spare collar and shield in my tube socket stash so I just replaced the one that came with the amp.

I replaced the crappy Chinese 6V6 with a NOS GE 6V6GTA and the preamp tub with a Sovtek 12AX7WXT. I was getting some residual noise, so I swapped back the stock Chinese tubes, but the noise was the same. Next I tried a JJ 6V6S, and it sounded the best of all.

The amp is excessively bright, even with the thick grill cloth covering the speaker. The tiny speaker sounds kind of tinny to me.

Just for kicks I hooked up my two 1x12" cabs loaded with Celestion speakers and the amp sounded much better.

There seems to be some power supply hum, does anyone else who has one of these have the same hum? It is not depended on volume of the amp, and doesn't go away when the guitar is turned down.

Edit: I checked a couple of transformers I have against the Champ 600, and it looks like the stock OT has 2 & 3/8" mounting centers. This is good news as there are couple that will bolt right up. The Champ 12 OT will bolt right up, but it is very expensive for what it is and only has an 8 ohm winding. A good replacement might be the Ver 1 & 2 Valve Junior OT. It has a 7.5k primary. The combo amps had 4 & 8 ohm secondaries and the heads had 4, 8, and 16 ohm secondaries. 7.5K was a bad match for the EL84 in the VJ, but it is better suited to a 6V6 anyway. My guess is that the OT was originally designed for a Champ circuit, but Epi put them in the VJ because they got a lot of them cheap. Even the new version 3 OT would work even though it has a 5K primary. But it does have the advantage of 4, 8, & 16 ohm secondaries. Finally, the Champ OT that is sold by Triode Electronics can be ordered with 2 & 3/8" mounting centers, has 4 and 8 ohm secondaries and costs less than $20. And it is made in America, Chicago to be exact.

Definitely a candidate for a gut and rebuild.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
September 15th, 2008, 01:01 AM
Mine had some hum in the beginning, but it's either gone away, or I don't notice it any more.

tunghaichuan
September 15th, 2008, 06:39 AM
To those of you who have Champ 600 amps, would you do me a favor?

Turn on the amp and let it warm up. Listen to the speaker with the volume all the way down. Does the amp have any hum?

I took mine apart to change the tubes and now it seems noisier with more hum than it did. It could be my imagination though. :confused:

TIA,

tung

Bilsdragon
October 29th, 2008, 08:52 AM
Has anyone tried a TS9 with this little puppy? I'm more an operator than a tech when it comes to amps and such, so I'm not sure if it's ok to run your pedals thru this thing or not. A sound clip would be great. :AOK:

markb
October 29th, 2008, 02:20 PM
Have at it with pedals without fear I'd say. The only problem I could see would be boosting the bass too much and blowing the speaker but that's an issue with any amp if you run it flat out.

tot_Ou_tard
December 2nd, 2008, 11:18 AM
Several months ago I replaced the faux suede grill cloth with an oxblood one from Antique Electronics Supply. The Oxblood with yellow would have fit the aesthetics better, but I knew that I wouldn't be able to get the yellow lines neat & parallel.

I'm about to pull the trigger on an OT.

tung, do you still recommend the Heyboer VJ replacement. What do you think of Mercury Magnetics? Too pricey? Which one would work?

tunghaichuan
December 2nd, 2008, 11:46 AM
I'm about to pull the trigger on an OT.

tung, do you still recommend the Heyboer VJ replacement. What do you think of Mercury Magnetics? Too pricey? Which one would work?

FWIW, having not tried either one:

The MM OT is going to be expensive, but by all accounts it is supposed to sound very good.

The Heyboer will sound good as well. If you're talking about the one that the Turretboards.com site sells, the 6.6K primary is a good match for the 6V6. It also has 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps which is nice.

One thing I've been meaning to try is to put a 7.5k Ver. 2 Valve Junior OT in my Champ 600 to see how that sounds. I would bet that it doesn't sound as good as the Heyboer or MM OTs :D

tung

tot_Ou_tard
December 2nd, 2008, 07:09 PM
I'm leaning toward the Heyboer, but for comparison's sake, which Mercury OT would work?

How do the various taps on the Heyboer work given that the speaker in the 600 is 4 Ohm?

tunghaichuan
December 2nd, 2008, 07:12 PM
For comparison's sake, which Mercury OT would work?



To tell the truth, I don't know. You might contact Mercury and see if they will sell you just the OT. I know the make a mod kit for the Champ.

The one thing I would be sure of is if the OT will fit on the chassis. The stock OT is tiny and fairly close to the 6V6. If you use the Mercury you may have to relocate the OT to another spot on the chassis.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
December 2nd, 2008, 07:16 PM
To tell the truth, I don't know. You might contact Mercury and see if they will sell you just the OT. I know the make a mod kit for the Champ.

The one thing I would be sure of is if the OT will fit on the chassis. The stock OT is tiny and fairly close to the 6V6. If you use the Mercury you may have to relocate the OT to another spot on the chassis.

tung

They say on the website that they won't sell you the OT from the kit separately, but they do have lots of champ OTs that they will sell.

tot_Ou_tard
December 5th, 2008, 07:12 AM
I emailed Mercury & they verified that they won't sell the OT from the kit.

I just ordered the Heyboer.

http://www.turretboards.com/valve_ju...placement%20OT (http://www.turretboards.com/valve_junior_page.htm#heyboer%20replacement%20OT)

tunghaichuan
December 5th, 2008, 12:01 PM
I would be very surprised if the Heyboer OT didn't sound good. The 6.6k primary will sound great with a 6V6.

I'm not a big fan of MM. The Valve Junior kit that they sell has two transformers you don't need, the PT and the choke. That's why they don't sell OT without the kit, no one would buy the kit otherwise.

There is also the issue of physical size. The Heyboer has the same mounting footprint as the VJ OT, which has the same mounting footprint of the Champ 600. The Heyboer should bolt right up with no modifications. I'm not sure about the MM OT; I believe it is physically much bigger than the Heyboer and may not fit on the 600's chassis well.

I think you made the right choice. :AOK:

tung



I emailed Mercury & they verified that they won't sell the OT from the kit.

I just ordered the Heyboer.

http://www.turretboards.com/valve_ju...placement%20OT (http://www.turretboards.com/valve_junior_page.htm#heyboer%20replacement%20OT)

tot_Ou_tard
December 5th, 2008, 07:22 PM
Coolio! A friend at work with mucho soldering experience is gonna help me.

I hope to pick up some good soldering tips in the process.

tot_Ou_tard
December 6th, 2008, 07:18 AM
tung,

What do you think of this Heyboer sold by Allen Amps? The price is essentially what I paid for the one from turretboards. Is that 8k primary too much? How exactly does varying the primary impendance (from low to high) impact the tone?

Upgrade single-ended output transformer for Champ™ style amps using a single 6V6 power tube (8,000 ohm primary impedance) and either a stock 4 ohm or custom 8 ohm speaker. Custom wound exclusively for Allen Amplification and made in the USA by Heyboer. Smaller than the TO11C, the TO8C is more appropriate for a BF/SF Champ™, VibroChamp™ or Bronco™ style chassis but a big improvement over the stock unit. Rated 60ma continuous. Wound on a paper tube with paper-layered and interleaved windings. Special grain-oriented high-performance lamination steel is used for maximum output and clarity. Excellent choice for a 6V6 based 5F1, 5F2A or similar amp. 2-1/4"H x 2"W with 2-3/8" mounting centers and weighing 1 lb. Durable black oxide finish. 6" Unistrand pretinned leads for fast installation. Includes stainless-steel mounting hardware!
http://www.allenamps.com/images/to8c_tn.jpg (http://www.allenamps.com/images/to8c.jpg)

tunghaichuan
December 6th, 2008, 08:11 AM
I have not tried it. I was thinking of trying the Heyboer replacement he sells for the Blackheart Little Giant amps. I've heard nothing but good things about Allen's Heyboer replacement OTs.

I believe vintage Blackface and Silverfact Champs and Vibro Champs used an OT with a 7.5k primary. So 8k is not out of line for a 6V6. It probably wouldn't sound that great in an SE EL84 circuit like the Valve Junior. An SE EL84 tube wants to "see" about 5K or so. So the Heyboer from Turretboards.com is a little high for an EL84, but a little low for a 6V6.

Generally speaking, the lower the primary of the OT (within reason) the more power the circuit puts out, but at the expense of added distortion. The higher the primary, the cleaner the output but at the expense of less power. It is not a good idea to go too low or too high as either one can cause problems. Not to worry though. When I use Hammond 125ESE OTs with 6V6s, I use the 5K setting and they sound fine. So anything from about 5K to 8K works well for a 6V6. EL84s tend to be a little more sensitive to the primary so 4k-6k is a reasonable range.

tung



tung,

What do you think of this Heyboer sold by Allen Amps? The price is essentially what I paid for the one from turretboards. Is that 8k primary too much? How exactly does varying the primary impendance (from low to high) impact the tone?

Upgrade single-ended output transformer for Champ™ style amps using a single 6V6 power tube (8,000 ohm primary impedance) and either a stock 4 ohm or custom 8 ohm speaker. Custom wound exclusively for Allen Amplification and made in the USA by Heyboer. Smaller than the TO11C, the TO8C is more appropriate for a BF/SF Champ™, VibroChamp™ or Bronco™ style chassis but a big improvement over the stock unit. Rated 60ma continuous. Wound on a paper tube with paper-layered and interleaved windings. Special grain-oriented high-performance lamination steel is used for maximum output and clarity. Excellent choice for a 6V6 based 5F1, 5F2A or similar amp. 2-1/4"H x 2"W with 2-3/8" mounting centers and weighing 1 lb. Durable black oxide finish. 6" Unistrand pretinned leads for fast installation. Includes stainless-steel mounting hardware!
http://www.allenamps.com/images/to8c_tn.jpg (http://www.allenamps.com/images/to8c.jpg)

ShortBuSX
December 6th, 2008, 08:13 AM
Are yall replacing the output transformer because its noisy?
Ive got a buddy whos GASin for one of those Gretsch 600 deals.

tunghaichuan
December 6th, 2008, 09:59 AM
Are yall replacing the output transformer because its noisy?
Ive got a buddy whos GASin for one of those Gretsch 600 deals.

I'm going to replace the OT in mine because it is small and cheesy looking. It only has a 4 ohm tap, so it can only be connected to a 4 ohm speaker (the stock speaker doesn't sound that good). Since the Champ 600 and Gretsch have a chassis-mounted output jacks, an OT with multiple output taps will allow connection to different cabs. I'm even thinking of putting in an impedance selector to make it more flexible.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
December 15th, 2008, 08:34 PM
I cancelled my order from turretboards & instead got the Heyboer from Allen Amps.

I also picked up a Carling 3-postion toggle switch (On-Standby-Play) and a switchcraft shorting 1/4" jack.

These came in today.

The jack is to put in an 8 Ohm speaker out.

Can anyone tell me how to wire up the standby switch & create the 8 Ohm Out.

The wiring diagram on the transformer has two wires for the 8K primary and three additional wires: ground, 4Ohm, 8Ohm.

tunghaichuan
December 15th, 2008, 08:50 PM
I cancelled my order from turretboards & instead got the Heyboer from Allen Amps.


Interesting, any reason why? Just curious.



I also picked up a Carling 3-postion toggle switch (On-Standby-Play) and a switchcraft shorting 1/4" jack.


It's been a while since I wired one of those, I'll see if I can dig out some info I had.




These came in today.

The jack is to put in an 8 Ohm speaker out.

Can anyone tell me how to wire up the standby switch & create the 8 Ohm Out.

The wiring diagram on the transformer has two wires for the 8K primary and three additional wires: ground, 4Ohm, 8Ohm.

I believe the 4 ohm jack on the chassis is grounded to the chassis, no? (i.e., no insulating washers, the jack is attached directly to the chassis.)

I'll have to look at my Champ to see, but you'll have to drill another hole for the 8 ohm jack. Once it is installed (and the OT) you solder the 8 ohm tap from the OT to the hot lug of the 8 ohm jack. You solder the 4 ohm tap from the OT to the hot lug of the 4 ohm jack. If the jacks are chassis grounded, you solder the ground wire to either of the solder lugs on the 4 or 8 ohm jacks.

For the primary, there are two connections: the anode of the 6V6 and the B+. I believe these are spade connections on the PCB. You may want to pick up some female connectors at Lowe's or Home Depot. One wire goes to the B+ the other goes the the anode connection. The amp will squeal with the wires attached one way as there is negative feedback. If the amp squeals as you turn it up, reverse the two primary leads.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
December 15th, 2008, 09:08 PM
Interesting, any reason why? Just curious.



It's been a while since I wired one of those, I'll see if I can dig out some info I had.




I believe the 4 ohm jack on the chassis is grounded to the chassis, no? (i.e., no insulating washers, the jack is attached directly to the chassis.)

I'll have to look at my Champ to see, but you'll have to drill another hole for the 8 ohm jack. Once it is installed (and the OT) you solder the 8 ohm tap from the OT to the hot lug of the 8 ohm jack. You solder the 4 ohm tap from the OT to the hot lug of the 4 ohm jack. If the jacks are chassis grounded, you solder the ground wire to either of the solder lugs on the 4 or 8 ohm jacks.

For the primary, there are two connections: the anode of the 6V6 and the B+. I believe these are spade connections on the PCB. You may want to pick up some female connectors at Lowe's or Home Depot. One wire goes to the B+ the other goes the the anode connection. The amp will squeal with the wires attached one way as there is negative feedback. If the amp squeals as you turn it up, reverse the two primary leads.

tung
No particular logical reason, but I got the standby switch & jack w/o additional shipping charges. I probably could've found those on the turretboards site, but then I'd still have to cancel the order.

Thanks tung! I'll have to take a look at the jack. How does one tell which lug is the hot one?

Yes, I'm planning on drilling a hole for the 8 Ohm out. To be more precise, my friend will & I'll watch & learn.

tunghaichuan
December 15th, 2008, 09:18 PM
No particular logical reason, but I got the standby switch & jack w/o additional shipping charges. I probably could've found those on the turretboards site, but then I'd still have to cancel the order.

Thanks tung! I'll have to take a look at the jack. How does one tell which lug is the hot one?

Yes, I'm planning on drilling a hole for the 8 Ohm out. To be more precise, my friend will & I'll watch & learn.

Does the jack look like this one:

http://www.effectsconnection.com/oscommerce/images/switchcraft%2012A%201.jpg

That is a Switchcraft shorting jack. You won't need the shorting arm and it won't harm anything to leave it unconnected.

The lug that connects to the center ring is ground. You can tell by plugging in a guitar cord. The part closest to the cord is the grounded part. The tip is the hot lead. You can also test the jack with a DMM as well to get the connections.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
December 15th, 2008, 10:03 PM
Does the jack look like this one:

http://www.effectsconnection.com/oscommerce/images/switchcraft%2012A%201.jpg

That is a Switchcraft shorting jack. You won't need the shorting arm and it won't harm anything to leave it unconnected.

The lug that connects to the center ring is ground. You can tell by plugging in a guitar cord. The part closest to the cord is the grounded part. The tip is the hot lead. You can also test the jack with a DMM as well to get the connections.

tung Thanks again tung!

I left the parts at work as I was gonna bring in the amp tomorrow.

I understand which lug is ground (near the word SWITCHCRAFT). What is the shorting arm? Is the tip the long metal part that will connect to the tip of 1/4" plug? If so, which of those two other lugs is connected to the tip (ie the hot lead)?

tot_Ou_tard
December 16th, 2008, 07:34 AM
I know the answer, but I'm just making sure that the OT in the Champion 600 is the little silver transformer & not the much larger silcer & black one.

That is, the one on the left of the 6V6 in this shot of someone ele's modded Champion 600.

http://demont.net/harmony/myharmonies/Jaybird/champ600new.jpg

tot_Ou_tard
December 16th, 2008, 07:54 AM
tung,

Do you know which wire I should have soldered to which lug of the Carling 3-position progressive toggle to get ON-STANDBY-OFF in the three positions?

Here is the Carling documentation on the switch.

http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/cirdiagrams.pdf

tunghaichuan
December 16th, 2008, 03:21 PM
Thanks again tung!

I left the parts at work as I was gonna bring in the amp tomorrow.

I understand which lug is ground (near the word SWITCHCRAFT). What is the shorting arm? Is the tip the long metal part that will connect to the tip of 1/4" plug? If so, which of those two other lugs is connected to the tip (ie the hot lead)?

Correct, "Switchcraft" is stamped on the grounding ring. The shorting arm is the shorter of the two longer protusions from the jack. The longer one is the tip and connects to the either the 4 ohm or 8 ohm tap. The ground connects to the ground lug. I believe the shoring arm solder lug is in the center and the hot lead is at the bottom of the above photo.

tung

tunghaichuan
December 16th, 2008, 03:22 PM
I know the answer, but I'm just making sure that the OT in the Champion 600 is the little silver transformer & not the much larger silcer & black one.

That is, the one on the left of the 6V6 in this shot of someone ele's modded Champion 600.

http://demont.net/harmony/myharmonies/Jaybird/champ600new.jpg

You are correct. The OT is the one on the left in the above photo.

tung

tunghaichuan
December 16th, 2008, 03:24 PM
tung,

Do you know which wire I should have soldered to which lug of the Carling 3-position progressive toggle to get ON-STANDBY-OFF in the three positions?

Here is the Carling documentation on the switch.

http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/cirdiagrams.pdf

I looked for my documentation. About ten years ago I bought two switches for my Super Champ and installed one. There was some documentation but I could not find it. I know it is somewhere, but I have a room full of amp-related junk to sift through. I'll post when I am able to find it.

tung

tot_Ou_tard
December 16th, 2008, 05:47 PM
Thanks yet again tung! I looked at my switch & it looks exactly like your photo. Here is the wiring diagram that came with the Allen Heybooer OT.



http://www.thefret.net/imagehosting/thum_8049483dbbae7c7.jpg (http://www.thefret.net/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=849)

tot_Ou_tard
December 17th, 2008, 12:00 PM
Does anyone know the wiring scheme on the stock 600 OT? Which color wire goes where?

oldguy
December 17th, 2008, 12:21 PM
OMG!!! You didn't take all the wires loose, did you???










:D :D :D
Google it, there's gotta be a modder's site for those somewhere.

tot_Ou_tard
December 17th, 2008, 04:55 PM
I did a bunch of googling but couldn't find the answer. I managed to figure it out by looking at the circuit board & making educated guesses.

Here is the correspondence (at least the amp works & sounds great)

Fender Champion primary: Blue & Red.

Blue = Heyboer Blue. Red = Heyboer Brown.

Fender Champion 4 Ohm speaker: Black & Yellow.

Black = Heyboer Black = Ground. Yellow = Heyboer Green.

There was no soldering done. The female clips were left on the circuit board & the stock wires clipped. The Heyboer OT wire were cut & connected via crimping connectors.

The mounting holes match up with the stock ones. Unfortunately the bell covers on the new OT are a little bit too big & bumps into the frame of the speaker.

We pivoted the OT using one of the stock holes & drilled a new hole in the chassis. It pivoted to a great location as there was no circuitry on the other side. My friend used a tap bit to create threads in the new hole, but using a nut on the other side would work well too.

I gave it a quick try & it sounded great. :AOK::AOK::AOK:

Thanks tung!

I'll put the Standby switch in when I find out what gets wired to what.

tot_Ou_tard
December 19th, 2008, 07:15 AM
I got some time to play the 600 with the new OT last night. It sounded great.

I don't do detailed reviews, because I'm still learning how to play & my opinions are likely to change as I get better but mainly because it would take away from focusing on playing.

That said, I'm very happy with the change. The amp seems to have woken up. I'd say that it just has "more" & leave it at that. Very sweet.

I can't wait to hear it through a cab.

Andy
December 19th, 2008, 11:11 AM
guess I've been convinced not to buy a champ600, sounds like to much work and additional investment to get something to sound...good.

If I ever get into that level of tweaking mode, I probably would just go ahead and buy an amp head kit and build what I really want.

however thanks to this thread, there is some good info posted for reference.
in the end you still have a 6" spkr and I guess I'm spoiled by 12's

tot_Ou_tard
December 19th, 2008, 11:21 AM
guess I've been convinced not to buy a champ600, sounds like to much work and additional investment to get something to sound...good.


No it sounded good to me to start with. I'm just using it as a way to become comfortable messing with my gear. It does sound better now, however. ;)

tunghaichuan
January 2nd, 2009, 12:16 PM
Check this thread out on the Epi forum:

http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=5598

:AOK:

tung

tot_Ou_tard
January 2nd, 2009, 08:31 PM
Check this thread out on the Epi forum:

http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=5598

:AOK:

tung
Very sweet looking indeed!

tot_Ou_tard
January 10th, 2009, 12:48 PM
Curiousity killed the cat, but at least it hasn't seemed to fry my amph.

I couldn't find information on how to wire the Carling 3-position progressive toggle as an on/stanbdby/off switch, but I did notice that the stock on/off switch has four leads all of which are connected to wires so i just connected them to the Carling in the same order.

On is on :AOK: & off is off :AOK: but "standby" appears to be short for "standby & do nothing" as the amp is completely silent & the tubes are cold.

What should I have done? There is some mention of B+ on the web whatever that is.

Danzego
January 13th, 2009, 02:01 PM
I picked up a Champ 600 late last summer and I don't think it's such a bad sounding amp at all.....depending on what you're playing through it with.

When I play my Epi LP through it, I wouldn't say the Champ gives you anything special at all. It comes across like a speaker with a volume knob, pretty much (which, I guess, is all it really IS :rotflmao: ). Maybe I need to add some coloring effects or something. However, when I play my Fender US Std Strat through it, I think it sounds really good for a lil' amp. Perhaps it really accentuates the versatility and great sound of a Strat in the first place, I don't know. But it sounds good with the Strat to my ears.

I got a Bad Monkey last week and set up right, it adds some great sounds there, too. I just turned down the gain and matched my tone with the pedal off and on, then brought up the gain and added just a touch of high end. Voila!

jim p
April 17th, 2009, 05:16 PM
Hi, I was just looking through the posts and wondered if anyone has tried by passing the feedback on the Champ 600. I was looking at the schematic today that Fender is nice enough to have on line and see as in most Fender amps this one has feedback. I am going to post adding a variable feedback to the Crate V5 so thought I would ask about this amp.
On the noise front see that they do not have DC filament supply and the Crate has a Pi filter with a choke in the plate supply both of those would reduce the noise on this amplifier. On a single ended amp noise on the plate supply comes right through the transformer to the speaker so a choke in the plate supply makes a big difference.

Bilsdragon
April 18th, 2009, 05:02 AM
I bought this amp about a month ago to use at lunch at work. My friend and I use a little storage room at lunch time and have to keep the volume down. I knew I would drive the 600 with a pedal since there would be no crunch possible a low volume. We play Led Zeppelin, Pearl Jam, Bowie, STP, and a couple of Alice in Chains songs to give you an example of the crunch tone that I was looking to create. I've used the amp with a bone stock DS-1, a Monte Allums modded TS9 Tube Screamer, and a Bad Monkey. Each pedal has their pluses, but the modded TS9 just gets the job done. The volume knob really can't be turned up past 4 with the pedal turned on or we'll be in the volume range to bother other people in the building just to give you my limits at work. It's a challenge to get a favorable tone at that volume. I tweak around on the pedal and the guitar to get the sounds I want. I keep the Bad Monkey at work since I usually use the other two with my V18 at home. I did swap the stock tubes for JJ's like Tung mentioned earlier and may even swap the ot for the stocker from an epi valave junior. Overall this little amp is great for what it is. If you need a bedroom amp or something portable, this thing is a good choice. Now my buddies V5 on the other hand is so shrill that I feel like stabbing myself with an ice pick when I hear it. I'm sure it will sound better after he tweaks it like some of the mods mentioned in the V5 thread.

tot_Ou_tard
April 18th, 2009, 05:07 AM
For those that wish to know what negative feedback is & its affect on tone:

http://www.aikenamps.com/NegativeFeedback.htm

If you're going the negative feedback route, Jim, maybe you should also think
about removing the fixed tone stack.

BTW, since the Gries 5 is my new squeeze, I've brought the 600 to work. Fantastic amp for that! Good looking, unobtrusive, & since I don't crank it in that enviroment there is no amp noise to speak of. I took the NOS tubes out (they are now in the Gries) & I have a production JJ 83s & a Tung-Sol 6V6 in it now. It sounds great.

Hey bilsdragon, I just noticed your "bring an amph to work post".

jim p
April 18th, 2009, 09:32 AM
My question is if anyone has used the amp with and without negative feedback. I see on the site 300Guitars there are some mods where they have removed R7 to take the feedback out. I was thinking you could change the value of R7, R23 and R3 then add a pot with a cap in series to set the level of feedback or have no feedback. Having no feedback is how the Valve Jr. and the Crate V5 amps are set up. Fender has almost always had feedback in there amplifier designs. For anyone who wants an overdriven sound no feedback is probably how they would want the amplifier set up.
For a low volume overdriven sound the cheep way to go would be to try adding an L-Pad in series with the speaker look for postings on this. I also noted where someone added a cap across there L-Pad to get some of the highs back although they did not post values and a pot and cap may be the better way to go.
A quick way to see how the amp is with no feed back is to short out R23 (47 ohm resistor) or put a 10uf cap accost it.
Another thing I saw on the 300 Guitars site is that the stock 6V6 has fried R10 on some amps then they talk about going to a higher wattage resistor after replacing the tube, I think I would rather fry a resistor vs. the output transformer; a resistor is a lot cheaper.
You could also consider converting the filament voltage to DC to reduce noise. At the 300 Guitars site they say that the routing of the filament tap from the transformer may need to be rerouted to reduce noise.
Also by looking at the schematic it looks like they have to high of a voltage on the screen grid all the old tube data sheets have it as 285 volts here it is probably 358 volts.
One thing to reduce noise from the outside world would be to change C3 to a 1.5uf from the stock 22uf to reduce amplification of 60Hz.
I don’t have one of these amps but wanted to find out about these things for general knowledge about this amplifier.
You could add reverb to this amp also but you will need to add a switch capacitor voltage doubler IC and supporting shrubbery this will also require rectifying the filament supply. Then you would follow what I have posted for adding reverb to the Crate V5 any interest let me know, thanks.