SS question -- don't shoot yet!

[birv2]

I've played out at a local jam a few times. The last time I went, I took my new Behringer OD100 pedal, my guitar, and one cable. Why only one, you ask? Because I knew that I could plug into whatever amp was there, and that amp would have a cable from the last person. My "group" was on second, and we got about a minute's notice that we had to be up there, plugged in, tuned, set list prepared and ready to rock.

The amp was there from the previous player (a fender twin), but no extra cable. So I played without the pedal. I wasn't happy about the sound for my solos.

I have a Peavey Envoy 110 at home (40 watts), and tried it with the pedal. Sounded great! So my new plan is to take the Peavey, the pedal, and TWO cables. So my question is this: is 40 watts on a solid state amp loud enough for a blues jam in a smallish room, considering you'll be playing with drums, bass, and at least one other guitar?

Bob

ps -- I would take my Vampire but don't want to throw my back out....:rotflmao:

[birv2]

I guess everyone plays tube amps?

:thwap:

Bob

[Robert]

Should be loud enough - just try it and find out! :AOK:

[Tone2TheBone]

40 watts from a SS no way. Nowhere near loud enough.

[Radioboy950]

Might be enough for a smaller gig or practice.

I’ve played out with a SS Peavy Studio Pro 112 (65w) and a TubeScreamer, and that was very adequate for an “oldies” band. I mic’d it through the PA at a music festival once and it was great.

Can you mic it??

Wouldn’t use it to cover AC/DC when the other guitar player is screamin’ through a Marshall half-stack. :messedup:

[Spudman]

You won't have any problems. The amp will most likely carry the room, but you might have a hard time hearing it which will make it seem like the amp isn't loud enough. Just make sure to tilt it or place it high enough that your ear catches all that you want.

Remember that the Envoy with 1 10" speaker is going to loose bottom end when it is on a stage getting washed out by bass and drums. It will however have some bottom out in the room because bass frequencies are longer waves and develop as they move further from the source. So don't freak out if you don't hear the lows like you do at home next to the amp. It's all about mid range baby.

[Brian Krashpad]

40 watts from a SS no way. Nowhere near loud enough.

I would tend to agree with this. I've played tube amps for a good long while now, but unless the band you're playing with is pretty quiet, 40W SS I would think would not be loud enough. One hard hitter behind the skins and you're toast.

Now, I have a 40W '66 Super Reverb tube amp (4x10) that's held it's own against 100W Marshall halfstacks no prob, but as everyone realizes there's a big apparent volume difference between SS and tube amp wattage.

I wouldn't want to play unmic'd w/a SS amp unless it was in the 80-100W range, and at least a 2x12.

[birv2]

Wow. Thanks for all the replies! I guess we'll just have to try it and see, since I got everything from "no way" to "no problem".

I wish my Vampire weren't so heavy. Since at this jam, you're only on for 3 songs, it's a lot to lug in, set up, and then scoot off stage with. Maybe I should use the weights in the basement and work up to it....

Does anyone else play out at jams? How do you handle the gear situation?

Thanks again!
Bob

[Robert]

The jams I go to aren't that loud, so my Vox AD50VT or my 18 watt tube amp can handle the volume easily. It all depends on what them other guys in the band are doing... how loud they are.

[Tone2TheBone]

Wow. Thanks for all the replies! I guess we'll just have to try it and see, since I got everything from "no way" to "no problem".

I wish my Vampire weren't so heavy. Since at this jam, you're only on for 3 songs, it's a lot to lug in, set up, and then scoot off stage with. Maybe I should use the weights in the basement and work up to it....

Does anyone else play out at jams? How do you handle the gear situation?

Thanks again!
Bob

Say Bob can you put some wheels under that Vampire? Did that with my extremely heavy Marshall combo and it was at least halfway easier to move around to gigs. Still had to lift it up and down off the van though.

[ted s]

Me thinks one of the amp guys should pipe up.. that's always got me as well.
If and amp is rated for eg. 40 watts output what difference how it gets there ?
I'm not slamming anyones opinion I just don't get it even though I think myself that 40 tube watts is louder than 40 ss watts. :messedup:

[LagrangeCalvert]

Wow. Thanks for all the replies! I guess we'll just have to try it and see, since I got everything from "no way" to "no problem".

I wish my Vampire weren't so heavy. Since at this jam, you're only on for 3 songs, it's a lot to lug in, set up, and then scoot off stage with. Maybe I should use the weights in the basement and work up to it....

Does anyone else play out at jams? How do you handle the gear situation?

Thanks again!
Bob

Well....I use a Valve JR (5 watt tube amp) with a 1x12 open back with an eminence swamp thang....and use a BBE green screamer to push the amp even harder. Its retubed in the preamp section with a 12AV7 so it stays clean to barely gritty turned all the way up, then when the BBE is kicked in there is a volume jump and it gets really creamy/Overdriven.Its a Blues Jam that you can play as long as the crowd likes you (unfair I know) ....AND I bring my 30 watt Peavey Delta blues...There can be anywhere from 1--4 guitarists on stage AND horns/bass and drums SO I can get lost if a volume war ensues, then they get yelled at. IMHO 40 SS watts are more than enough. The reason a SS amp doesn't sound as loud is that a tube amps harmonics....when a SS amp is turned up the SINE is square (the wave of sound) so the harmonics come off the ear as distortion...not harmonics, and our ears "hear" the tube amp's harmonics in the 3rds and 5ths and that makes it louder because we hear it as pure sound and not a distorted square wave.....

If anyone knows better please elaborate,

But a SS and Tube amp of the same wattage are just as Loud as the other ,in theory, now that goes without saying some companies rate amps Higher/Lower than they really are.

Plus I really think Tone Pots bleed off some volume.


If anyone can give a better explanation of these things PLEASE DO, cause its not a shot at me if I'm corrected.

Josh~Lagrange Calvert

[birv2]

Say Bob can you put some wheels under that Vampire? Did that with my extremely heavy Marshall combo and it was at least halfway easier to move around to gigs. Still had to lift it up and down off the van though.

I've actually considered it. Checked out prices on some stuff at Home Depot where you can get a rectangle of slats with wheels on the bottom. Looked like a possible solution. I'm not the handiest dude with hand tools, so I'm a bit wary of putting wheels on the amp itself....

The other thing I looked at was one of those mini-hand trucks, since you could navigate steps better. Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Bob

[Tone2TheBone]

I've actually considered it. Checked out prices on some stuff at Home Depot where you can get a rectangle of slats with wheels on the bottom. Looked like a possible solution. I'm not the handiest dude with hand tools, so I'm a bit wary of putting wheels on the amp itself....

The other thing I looked at was one of those mini-hand trucks, since you could navigate steps better. Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Bob

Bob I would not recommend a hand truck for moving an amp. Way too many things could happen and by this I mean bad things. :eek: :) Hand trucks are tricky to maneuver. Just do the best you can with what you have for now. Crank that 40 watter up and play and have fun. In the interim practice your drilling and measuring skills on old boards laying around the yard then invest in 4 wheels from Home Depot and "install" them on one of those old boards as a test. Once you're confident carefully mark the screw holes of the wheel plates on the bottom corners of the Vampire and drill the holes to install the wheels. If you need more info PM me Bob.

[birv2]

Bob I would not recommend a hand truck for moving an amp. Way too many things could happen and by this I mean bad things. :eek: :) Hand trucks are tricky to maneuver. Just do the best you can with what you have for now. Crank that 40 watter up and play and have fun. In the interim practice your drilling and measuring skills on old boards laying around the yard then invest in 4 wheels from Home Depot and "install" them on one of those old boards as a test. Once you're confident carefully mark the screw holes of the wheel plates on the bottom corners of the Vampire and drill the holes to install the wheels. If you need more info PM me Bob.

Thanks for the advice, T2TB. I definitely don't want bad things to happen to the amp! It seemed like a good idea, but I guess not. Putting wheels on the amp sounds like a good project for over Christmas. I'll practice my drilling.:rotflmao:

Putting wheels on the amp wouldn't change the sound in a bad way, would it? I'm pretty new at the amp thing, or at least making mods. But it sounds like the best way to get around Heavy Amp Syndrome (HAS). Just glad I'm not into Marshall stacks... (reminds me of Blue Cheer -- anyone remember that picture of them playing in front of that wall of Marshalls? Hope they paid their roadies well).

Bob

[tunghaichuan]

Ted, et al.,

My understanding is that to an engineer, wattage is wattage. Theoretically a 40w ss amp is as loud as a 40 tube amp.

In reality, a 40w tube amp will sound louder than a 40w ss amp. The reason why is the way the different amplifying devices distort. Tubes gradually distort. As the input signal is increased, the amp clips gradually and the wave form clips is rounded over but at lower levels this may not be percieved as distortion. The sound gets "warmer" or "fatter."

I've had techs tell me that a 50 watt Marshall head will actually put out 60 watts clean. When pushed into distortion, it will put out over 100 watts with lots of harmonic distortion. Same with a tweed Deluxe. Clean it is about a 12watt amp. When cranked up all the way, it puts out around 24 watts, distorted.

SS devices, OTOH, stay clean with low levels of harmonic distortion right up until the amp clips, and then they "square wave," i.e., produce lots of harmonic distortion. This severe, sudden clipping is one of the reasons that SS amps don't sound as good as tube amps for distortion.

The one thing that SS amps do is squeaky clean. One of my favorite amps is the Roland JC-120, which sounds great clean, but horrid when used with the distortion circuit.

Amp manufacturers have been known to measure SS amps right at the onset of clipping, which artificially inflates the wattage of their amps. So that 40 watt amp is with a significant amount of THD. Clean, it may be closer to 20 or 30 watts (SWAG).

tung


Me thinks one of the amp guys should pipe up.. that's always got me as well.
If and amp is rated for eg. 40 watts output what difference how it gets there ?
I'm not slamming anyones opinion I just don't get it even though I think myself that 40 tube watts is louder than 40 ss watts. :messedup:

[ted s]

Nice explanation Tung, thank you. So, I guess its perception and how our ears react to the audio characteristics. (All else as equal as it can be)

[Algonquin]

The one thing that SS amps do is squeaky clean. One of my favorite amps is the Roland JC-120, which sounds great clean, but horrid when used with the distortion circuit.

tung
The distortion dial on a JC-120 is truly a waste of time... no disrespect to Roland, but they would have been better off omitting this feature.

This doesn't mean that you can't get a good overdrive sound out of it, you just have to use pedals for that.

I know my JC is old, but it suprises me a little bit that I don't see more of them in the folks equipment lists here. If I ever had an issue with mine, I wouldn't think twice to pick up another.
:AOK:

[SuperSwede]

The distortion dial on a JC-120 is truly a waste of time... no disrespect to Roland, but they would have been better off omitting this feature.


Yeah, I really agree! It could possibly be used as a gimmick, but I thought for several years that there was something wrong with my JC120 (which I sadly dont have anymore), eventually I discovered that it was supposed to sound that way! But like you said, it takes pedals really well (especially tube screamers IMO).

Back to the subject, a cranked 40watt SS amp will possibly be loud enough to be heard in a 3 man band but the sound will be far from enjoyable. A cranked 40 w SS amp usually doesnt sound very sweet, and the speakers in amps like that are often low-end.

[WackyT]

Tube amps produce even harmonics when driven to distortion which sounds good to the human ear, and SS amps produce odd harmonics when driven to distortion which sounds harsh to the human ear.

[LagrangeCalvert]

Tube amps produce even harmonics when driven to distortion which sounds good to the human ear, and SS amps produce odd harmonics when driven to distortion which sounds harsh to the human ear.


Like I said in the earlier post, in 3rds and 5ths......

SS wattage IS equal to Tube wattage. Its all about Deception, and what I mean by that is tube amps trick you into thinking their louder because we hear their harmonics as extra sound and as Tung pointed out SS amps are clean until the point of breakup....then their SS Diode's are Clipping and the SINE is square, sounding like distortion rather than harmonics...and most of the time are ears perceive SS harmonics as pure nasty distortion/sound.....

Hope all this clears up your amp situation.


Start doing box squats to get those quads and lower back strong to pick that damn thing up:AOK:

[WackyT]

Like I said in the earlier post, in 3rds and 5ths......


...and our ears "hear" the tube amp's harmonics in the 3rds and 5ths and that makes it louder because we hear it as pure sound and not a distorted square wave.....

The 3rds and 5th harmonics are odd not even.

[LagrangeCalvert]

The 3rds and 5th harmonics are odd not even.

I didn't mean in a literal sense....meaning "even" just meaning to our ears they even/right.

SS harmonics come off as distortion


sorry I didn't clarify earlier DUDE!