P90 vs. H90 pickups

[red]

Hello.

As you may or may not know, Gibson is using what they call a "H90" pickup for their BJA Les Paul Junior (http://www.gibson.com/en%2Dus/Divisions/Gibson%20USA/Guitars/LesPaul/Billie%20Joe%20Armstrong%20Les%20Paul/). I've asked them what that actually is, and got this answer:

"The H-90 pickups are complete P-90 pickups that have an under-wound enamel wire coil stacked below the single coil of the P-90. This provides some hum cancellation in the pickup. [...] BJA's pickup is not entirely hum-canceling, only reduces the hum from what you'd get on a P-90."

I understand that at least in theory it is possible to make a H90 into a real P90 by modifying the wiring, however I was not able to obtain the exact information on how to go about doing that. IIRC, there's another guitar from Gibson that uses a push-pull pot or a similar device for coil-splitting a H90 pickup (I forget which guitar that is).

My questions are:

1. Has anyone actually played a BJA LP Jr.? How does it compare with a regular Gibson Custom Shop LP Jr. Reissue with a regular P90 sound-wise? I understand the pickup on the BJA is noticeably hotter than a regular P90, but are there any other big differences? Does the hum-cancelling attempt cut into the vintage P90 sound? Any sound clips are appreciated - there's no shop where I live that will have them in stock unless I actually pay for one.

2. Any ideas if the BJA pickup is coil-splittable, and if it is, does anyone know of a wiring diagram for this? I'm thinking, if I do eventually get one but dislike the sound of the H90 I might be able to revert it to a P90 by myself without paying for a new pickup.

Thanks.

[markb]

It sounds like the pickup has a passive dummy coil to provide some hum cancellation. Yes, it could be coil tapped but would require rewinding to do it. Any single coil can be coil tapped by taking a tap off at some point in the winding, I think Shecter used to do this on their single coils back in the late 80s. Duncan and Vintage Vibe offer tapped single replacement pickups iirc.

[LagrangeCalvert]

My seymour duncan Quarter pounder single coils are a 4 wire that you can have a toggle for hot and vintage output.

IMHO I really wouldn't pay that much for either guitars you mention, but I nit pick AND I would want WAAAAY MORE for the money of the "stripped down rocker" BJA uses/owns w/e.

BUT if you really like it and have played a Junior style (with a wraparound bridge) Paul or epi, then I say go for it.

Any wrapping of wire, weather it be a dummy coil OR used will have an effect on tone. LACE SENSORS are a good example of this...and some of the FENDER pups...along with a bunch more. I say do a little more research on this subject to make your decision tone.... as long as your happy with the playability and tone AND it gets the sound YOU want then its a great buy, right?

[red]

Any wrapping of wire, weather it be a dummy coil OR used will have an effect on tone. LACE SENSORS are a good example of this...and some of the FENDER pups...along with a bunch more. I say do a little more research on this subject to make your decision tone.... as long as your happy with the playability and tone AND it gets the sound YOU want then its a great buy, right?
Thanks for the reply!

Yes, I agree that the guitar is pricey, and yes, I agree that a guitar is a guitar and if one feels right then that's all you usually need (well, that and the cash to buy it).

The playability I'm fine with, I don't know much about the tone though. I've looked it up on YouTube, but couldn't find any relevant BJA LP Jr clips, and I've Google'd it too without much success. There are two small clips on the Gibson website but you can't figure out much from them.

I'd be more than happy to buy a cheaper LP Nasville Jr (but not a regular LP Jr, as it's finished with polyurethane and IMHO that tends to kill the vibe of the body wood), but that one is a 3-piece body (of probably lower quality mahogany), the tuners I understand are pretty bad too, and the finish is reportedly bad (not because it's "satin" but because people have received them with "ink spots" on the neck and so on). So a more expensive one simply seems a more prudent choice - Gibson says the BJA has got a 1-piece mahogany body, the finish is nitrocellulose lacquer, and it's basically a reissue minus the thickness of the neck and the pickup - and the pickup can be changed, to get back to 99.9% vintage reissue specs. I'm not what you'd call a Billie Joe Armstrong or Green Day fan really, but you have to give credit where credit's due.

So I'm not looking at it as a more expensive regular LP Jr, but as a much cheaper vintage reissue. I'd get a cheaper one if I could test 15 of them in a local store and go home with the winner. But not being able to even test one as luck might have it, I'm reluctant to pay less and settle for something that won't really do.

As for the simplicity of it, that's actually what I'm after. I'm a "set-your-pickup-switch-once-and-forget-about-it" kind of guy, so if there's only one pickup and it's where it's supposed to be, all the rest are overkill :).

That being said, yes Gibson are the kings of overpricing and no guitar they've ever built deserves the pricetag.

[LagrangeCalvert]

not to play devils advocate BUT have you checked out PRS singlecut guitars? They have some pretty nice stuff and its right down the alley your looking for but with no gibson name tag.

http://www.music123.com/Paul-Reed-Smith-SE-One-Electric-Guitar-514459-i1368510.Music123

http://www.music123.com/Paul-Reed-Smith-SE-Soapbar-II-Maple-Electric-Guitar-519372-i1150577.Music123


just some thoughts.

[red]

not to play devils advocate BUT have you checked out PRS singlecut guitars? They have some pretty nice stuff and its right down the alley your looking for but with no gibson name tag.
Thanks for the suggestion, I actually had no clue that PRS makes that sort of thing.
I'll look it up and try to find some clips, maybe find one to try somewhere.
Does it have a nitrocellulose lacquer finish? I couldn't figure that out from the PRS website specs. Also, the complete lack of a "tone" pot worries me. You can get all sorts of sounds only by using the tone knob, and it's especially important IMHO for single coil guitars. I'm assuming the lack of it means "rolled all the way up".

[LagrangeCalvert]

yeah....I agree a tone pot is crucial and it can be added (if your into modding).

I also have no idea what kind of finish it has.....anyone else want to chime in on this one? I just remembered that PRS made some like this.

[Brian Krashpad]

Thanks for the reply!



I'd be more than happy to buy a cheaper LP Nasville Jr (but not a regular LP Jr, as it's finished with polyurethane and IMHO that tends to kill the vibe of the body wood), but that one is a 3-piece body (of probably lower quality mahogany), the tuners I understand are pretty bad too, and the finish is reportedly bad (not because it's "satin" but because people have received them with "ink spots" on the neck and so on).

Where have you seen Juniors listed as having a poly finish?

The only Gibsons I've ever heard of with a poly finish were the LP Special Humbucker 'SL" models, "SL" standing for "sans laquer."

[red]

Where have you seen Juniors listed as having a poly finish?

The only Gibsons I've ever heard of with a poly finish were the LP Special Humbucker 'SL" models, "SL" standing for "sans laquer."
I can't remember, I've heard about this "cheaper" one (http://www.thomann.de/gb/gibson_les_paul_junior_vsb.htm) as having a polyurethane finish - I'm not sure that I got the information at the time from a vendor or from Gibson, probably not from Gibson though. I think some of those are still selling from Musician's Friend, and somebody there posted a review saying it has a 9-piece body as well.

[wingsdad]

Not only did Gibson have this type of P-90 before, but they were at the heart of a remarkably low-priced Memphis-made Gibson, the BluesHawk. I think its last MSRP was about $1,200, including gigbag. It had the dummy coil going on, and so they called the pickups 'Blues 90's'.

Here's a link I've somehow saved to what used to be its page on the Gibson website in 2002:
http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/Hawk/BluesHawk/BluesHawk.html
The BluesHawk is strange, for a Gibson. Strangely 'Fenderish'. A 25 1/2" scale length like a Strat or Tele, as opposed to the common 24 3/4" Gibson electric scale length. String-through-body like a Tele. Very lightweight with a Semi-hollow poplar body with a maple cap top. 'Belly' Contour on the back like a Strat. And the Vari-tone switch, combined with the 3-way Strat-style selector gives you 18 different pickup/tone combinations. Nitrocell lacquer not poly, finish.

The BluesHawk was introduced in '96 as a follow-up to the NightHawk, and finally discontinued in 2006. There were a few different 'Hawks' in the Hawk Series, including it's 'top of the line' model, the 'Little Lucille', that came with the only hardshell case customized to fit a Hawk, and with B.B.'s mojo, went for about $200 more.

Why did they stop making it? Too cheap? Too Fender? Because it's slightly odd body shape didn't let it fit in an LP case?

They occasionally pop up on e-bay, and BlueBook or Vintage Guitar says they're worth about $700-$800 in good shape.

I managed to get a '99 in nice shape 2 years ago for $700. Here's front & back shots of her. The access panel in the middle of the back is how you got at the dummy coil if you wanted to disconnect it:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/Forum%20Profile/BluesHawk1x3.jpghttp://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/BluesHawk2sm.jpg

Great little axe. Alas, I, let her go for a modest profit on trade-in to cap a bargain deal on my Fender AmVint 62RI Strat.

[red]

Not only did Gibson have this type of P-90 before, but they were at the heart of a remarkably low-priced Memphis-made Gibson, the BluesHawk. I think its last MSRP was about $1,200, including gigbag. It had the dummy coil going on, and so they called the pickups 'Blues 90's'.
Excellent contribution to the discussion! I can't thank you enough, there are clips and everything on that website! I love the way that guitar sounds, maybe I should check eBay out :).

[wingsdad]

You're very welcome, red. ;)

I copied & pasted my post to make a topic thread of its own on the BluesHawk in the Gibson area of the Instruments seciton here.

There, I added this tidbit that I'd left out before:

MORE INFO: BluesHawks (& other Hawk Series guitars) have something of a 'cult following', with that 'cult' having an informative website started & maintained by a guy in England, loaded with info:
http://www.blueshawk.info/intro.htm

Besides e-bay, this site is a good spot to search for used/vintage & sometimes new stuff, from guitars to pickups, for sale usually by dealers specializing in this sort of thing, like Elderly Instruments in Michigan, but not on e-bay. I didn't see any Hawks there just now, but a couple of years ago, there were a couple.
http://www.gbase.com/

[mrmudcat]

Red as B.K. suggested not poly, for sure nitro,and as far as I know 2-3 piece bodies on a standard lp jr.:beer:

With any guitar ,especially from online vendors.I tend to read reviews with an open mind.:D A "9 piece body" comment would of set off my B.S. alarm!:thwap: I love the straight out p-90 sound,raw and noisey! Good luck in your search.Red I would ask the vast array of very smart cookies here about pups ,bodies etc etc .I feel confident you will get correct info based on facts and not just some M.F.reviewer who has no clue.It is hard to get a perfect model from the online bunch,so flaws (inkspots???) are mostly due to neglect on this level.Gibson Q.C. has declined,so im sure they have fubared a few and sent them out also:rockon:

[red]

With any guitar ,especially from online vendors.I tend to read reviews with an open mind.:D A "9 piece body" comment would of set off my B.S. alarm!:thwap: I love the straight out p-90 sound,raw and noisey! Good luck in your search.Red I would ask the vast array of very smart cookies here about pups ,bodies etc etc .I feel confident you will get correct info based on facts and not just some M.F.reviewer who has no clue.
Thanks for the reply!

Well, I suppose the Musician's Friend reviewer fed my paranoia gnome. I have a tendency to believe that large, profit-oriented multi-national corporations such as Gibson are in fact capable of wrapping dog waste in tin foil and selling it for $1000, so I tend to believe such reviews :), but it's always possible that the reviewer is missing some screws.

As for the finish being nitro or poly, I don't actually know what the case is and I've never asked Gibson about it, so you may be right. I just tended to go with the rumours, but since I've never actually touched one, I admit I might be wrong in suggesting it's polyurethane.

And yes, I do agree that this forum has a higher-than-average collective IQ and that's why I started this thread! :)

[snoglobe]

On a recent business trip to Houston, I braved going in to a Guitar Center and picked up a Billie Joe Armstrong LP Jr. for $800 with the cheetah fur lined hard shell case. It had two minor cracks in the finish where the pots were tightened down to much, virtually invisible, beats paying the 1499 that Fuller's Vintage Guitars wanted for a pristine one.

I haven't compared it to the GC's LP Jr. which they sell for $799 because they didn't have any. Haven't played the $2000+ Vintage reissue. Happy with the guitar, happy with the deal. It's hard to elicit any delicacy out of this guitar, it's ballsy and snotty and rude. The perfect punk and angry blues guitar. I have other strats and teles for different sounds, but when I want to blow off some steam, the BJA does the job.

Hope this helps.

[red]

I haven't compared it to the GC's LP Jr. which they sell for $799 because they didn't have any. Haven't played the $2000+ Vintage reissue. Happy with the guitar, happy with the deal. It's hard to elicit any delicacy out of this guitar, it's ballsy and snotty and rude. The perfect punk and angry blues guitar. I have other strats and teles for different sounds, but when I want to blow off some steam, the BJA does the job.

Hope this helps.
It does, thank you. I don't mind punk sounds, but I was hoping it could get into Rolling Stones' "Midnight Rambler", or "Tumbling Dice" territory. Even if it doesn't, though, since the only real difference from a Custom Shop reissue seems to be the pickup, I can eventually slap a Gibson P90 on that and make it more vintage-sounding with much less money than a reissue would cost.

What amp are you using with that guitar? Is it tube or solid state?
Does the pickup retain enough highs to make you think of a regular P90? I guess my question is, is it kind of a "hot-P90" sound, or altogether different?

If you've got the time and the means, and it's not too much trouble, maybe you could post some sound samples of it with clean sound, and maybe a touch of tube distortion, if you have a tube amp.

Thanks!

[snoglobe]

It does, thank you. I don't mind punk sounds, but I was hoping it could get into Rolling Stones' "Midnight Rambler", or "Tumbling Dice" territory. Even if it doesn't, though, since the only real difference from a Custom Shop reissue seems to be the pickup, I can eventually slap a Gibson P90 on that and make it more vintage-sounding with much less money than a reissue would cost.

What amp are you using with that guitar? Is it tube or solid state?
Does the pickup retain enough highs to make you think of a regular P90? I guess my question is, is it kind of a "hot-P90" sound, or altogether different?

If you've got the time and the means, and it's not too much trouble, maybe you could post some sound samples of it with clean sound, and maybe a touch of tube distortion, if you have a tube amp.

Thanks!

Both solid state and tube.

I play it through a Tech 21 TM10 when I'm jamming at my friend's house (no pedals, but I mess with the settings).

At home it goes through a tweed Blues Junior (jensen speaker) with a fresh set of JJ tubes set for maximum clean headroom (makes my teles twang nicely). The BJA is played on the BJr through a Boss OS-2 Overdrive Distortion for blues/rock and a Boss DF-2 Super Feedbacker/Distortion for the snotty punk sounds.

I've never played a regular P90 before through this setup, or any amp for that matter, so I can't give you a fair comparison or even begin to discuss the tonal differences between the two. But I do know that when I plugged in for the first time and hit the first chord with distortion that it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

[Brian Krashpad]

It does, thank you. I don't mind punk sounds, but I was hoping it could get into Rolling Stones' "Midnight Rambler", or "Tumbling Dice" territory.

Keep in mind, after 30 years of punk rock, a "punk" guitar sound isn't terribly desciptive, because punk guitarists have made sounds all over the map. Guitarists in the first, pre-hardcore wave of punk rock used a guitar sound that honestly wasn't all that different than the sound used in more raucous classic rock and glam rock, including the Stones, Kinks, etc. Many of the British firstwave punks in particular were huge fans of the New York Dolls and Johnny Thunders in particular, and Thunders played Les Paul Juniors and Specials with P-90's almost exclusively. As a result people like both the guitarists for the Buzzcocks, as well as early Mick Jones of the Clash used P-90's, as do some of today's punks that harken to the early pre-hardcore punk rock and roll, such as Billy Joe of Green Day and the guitarists in Social Distortion. To me their guitar sound is simply a Seventies rock guitar wide open.

[red]

Keep in mind, after 30 years of punk rock, a "punk" guitar sound isn't terribly desciptive, because punk guitarists have made sounds all over the map. [...] To me their guitar sound is simply a Seventies rock guitar wide open.
Indeed, and there's a guy who wrote a review (http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar/product/Gibson/Billie+Joe+Armstrong+Les+Paul+Junior/10/1) at Harmony Central that's articulate enough, claims he's a working musician playing guitar for 30 years, owns 20 guitars and plays "hard-edged sixties garage rock and blues and was going for that vintage Leslie West tone, and this baby's got it". He also claims that "harmonics are loud and clear, the pickup snarls and roars, and with it's resonant neck and body, the guitar has amazing sustain".
This guitar sounds better and better the more I read about it (pun not intended :) ).

[snoglobe]

Keep in mind, after 30 years of punk rock, a "punk" guitar sound isn't terribly desciptive, because punk guitarists have made sounds all over the map. Guitarists in the first, pre-hardcore wave of punk rock used a guitar sound that honestly wasn't all that different than the sound used in more raucous classic rock and glam rock, including the Stones, Kinks, etc. Many of the British firstwave punks in particular were huge fans of the New York Dolls and Johnny Thunders in particular, and Thunders played Les Paul Juniors and Specials with P-90's almost exclusively. As a result people like both the guitarists for the Buzzcocks, as well as early Mick Jones of the Clash used P-90's, as do some of today's punks that harken to the early pre-hardcore punk rock and roll, such as Billy Joe of Green Day and the guitarists in Social Distortion. To me their guitar sound is simply a Seventies rock guitar wide open.

I'm old enough to have enjoyed punk the first time around - Clash, Damned, Buzzcocks (one of my faves), Pistols, DOA, Subhumans, etc. When I reference the punk sound, that's what I hear in my head, plus later soundalikes such as Social Distortion, Green Day which I enjoy. It just has that grit to it, combined with enough frantic energy that appeals to me.

[Brian Krashpad]

I'm old enough to have enjoyed punk the first time around - Clash, Damned, Buzzcocks (one of my faves), Pistols, DOA, Subhumans, etc. When I reference the punk sound, that's what I hear in my head, plus later soundalikes such as Social Distortion, Green Day which I enjoy. It just has that grit to it, combined with enough frantic energy that appeals to me.

That's my reference point too. I'm glad I got to see the Ramones before they started having so many health problems, also got to see Nine Nine Nine, Devo, and Plasmatics back in the day, but mostly had to be content with records since I wasn't in NY, London, Cleveland, or LA. I did see the Damned in '89. I really need to see the Buzzcocks, especially since they're still touring and recording! Singles Going Steady is one of my all-time faves, and what I've heard of their newer material is still quite good.

Btw if you like that old school sound you might like my band, Crash Pad. My vocals can be in the really annoying Jello Biafra-ish vein though. :AOK:

PS-- sorry about the thread hijack

[snoglobe]

That's my reference point too. I'm glad I got to see the Ramones before they started having so many health problems, also got to see Nine Nine Nine, Devo, and Plasmatics back in the day, but mostly had to be content with records since I wasn't in NY, London, Cleveland, or LA. I did see the Damned in '89. I really need to see the Buzzcocks, especially since they're still touring and recording! Singles Going Steady is one of my all-time faves, and what I've heard of their newer material is still quite good.

Btw if you like that old school sound you might like my band, Crash Pad. My vocals can be in the really annoying Jello Biafra-ish vein though. :AOK:

PS-- sorry about the thread hijack


Nine Nine Nine was one of the best concerts I had been to, it was on their Biggest Prize In Sport tour.

[Brian Krashpad]

Nine Nine Nine was one of the best concerts I had been to, it was on their Biggest Prize In Sport tour.

That's when I saw 'em too. The first band I was ever in used to cover "Homicide," "English Wipeout," and "Biggest Prize in Sport."

[red]

PS-- sorry about the thread hijack
Hijack away, I'm somewhat of a fan of old school punk myself, from The Ramones and The Clash to Black Flag :). That's why I said I don't mind a little "punk tone" as long as "Tumbling Dice" won't sound like the Metallica version. Though I gather that won't be the case, so it sounds like the BJA is a pretty safe bet.

Slightly off-topic on my own thread :), there's a video of Keith Urban (no I don't like his music at all) going around on YouTube at the moment (the song I believe is called "Stupid Boy" or something similar), and it looks like he's actually using a "regular" now-discontinued-but-still-available on Musician's Friend and Thomann Gibson Les Paul Junior (I think I can tell because the knobs on the tone and volume pots are black plastic as opposed to the brownish ones on BJA and the reissues and all the vintage ones I've seen). I might be wrong, maybe they made LP Jrs with black pot knobs sometime in the past, or he might have a vintage one with the knobs replaced. Picture and some more talk about it here (http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1717922&postcount=72). The sound is not much because IMHO he's using too much distortion and reverb for the guitar to be able to really shine through, but I find it interesting that a famous professional musician is using "the cheap version".

I really wish I knew for sure if the finish is nitro or poly on that. Maybe I should email Gibson.

[Brian Krashpad]

Hijack away, I'm somewhat of a fan of old school punk myself, from The Ramones and The Clash to Black Flag :). That's why I said I don't mind a little "punk tone" as long as "Tumbling Dice" won't sound like the Metallica version. Though I gather that won't be the case, so it sounds like the BJA is a pretty safe bet.

Slightly off-topic on my own thread :), there's a video of Keith Urban (no I don't like his music at all) going around on YouTube at the moment (the song I believe is called "Stupid Boy" or something similar), and it looks like he's actually using a "regular" now-discontinued-but-still-available on Musician's Friend and Thomann Gibson Les Paul Junior (I think I can tell because the knobs on the tone and volume pots are black plastic as opposed to the brownish ones on BJA and the reissues and all the vintage ones I've seen). I might be wrong, maybe they made LP Jrs with black pot knobs sometime in the past, or he might have a vintage one with the knobs replaced. Picture and some more talk about it here (http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1717922&postcount=72). The sound is not much because IMHO he's using too much distortion and reverb for the guitar to be able to really shine through, but I find it interesting that a famous professional musician is using "the cheap version".

I really wish I knew for sure if the finish is nitro or poly on that. Maybe I should email Gibson.

I've seen him playing a Junior on some awards show. I've always felt a good player is a good player.

There's a small piece in the February issue of Guitar Player about a pro sideman from Las Vegas who recently recorded an album and managed to get both Ron Wood and Jeff Beck to play on it. Both of his famous guests played through a Fender Hot Rod Deville, by no means a bad amp, but certainly not some unattainable Holy Grail amp or even one that's near the top of many Fender purists' lists (like say a vintage Super Reverb, etc., might be).