Disturbing event here in Camrose

[Robert]

This is a tragedy that happened to some close friends of mine here in the small city of Camrose. It is just unbelievable. We are all shaking our heads here in disbelief.

"Police in the Canadian province of Alberta have charged four teenage boys with killing a cat by cooking it in a microwave oven during a recent break-in.

Police allege that after breaking into a home in Camrose, near Edmonton, last month the four teens took a cat living there and cooked it inside the oven, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. reported Sunday."

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/01/06/teenagers_charged_with_fatally_cooking_cat/2539/

[WackyT]

That is just sick and disgusting! I have always believed in an eye for an eye for any crime you commit. Place these kids in a giant industrial microwave and let them feel exactly what that poor cat felt.

[tjcurtin1]

Look at our popular culture - death and destruction on TV and in movies as entertainment and then (apologies to you gamers) video games in which you score points for perpetrating horrific acts of violence.... Why should we be so surprised?

[ted s]

That is absolutely sickening !
I am speechless. Unfortunately, the Young offenders act will no doubt protect
the heartless little bastards from the true punishment due.
14 and 15 years old ?! How can anyone actually bring themselves to do this ?

[stingx]

Only the lowest of low scum would mistreat an animal like that. These same pieces of crap are also very likely to harm children too. I don't know about Canada but if I were in charge here I know exactly how to clear out over populated prisons.

[oldguy]

Too sick for words....

[Jimi75]

Look what poor values our race has reached. This is sick and I can not believe which disgusting mind is able to treat an animal like this.

[duhvoodooman]

Look at our popular culture - death and destruction on TV and in movies as entertainment and then (apologies to you gamers) video games in which you score points for perpetrating horrific acts of violence.... Why should we be so surprised?
Exactly. A decadent society produces deviant behavior like this. Sad....

[R_of_G]

Two points...

First and foremost, these kids are despicable. I am more willing to forgive acts of violence against people than against animals. With people there is always the remote possibility the violence was deserved but overdone. With animals, there is no excuse. The punishment should be as harsh as local laws allow.

Secondly, I think blaming the media is a bit much. I'm not saying the images people get from the modern media should be held up as an ideal, but I think it's far too easy to shift the blame in that direction. Can somebody point to a time before video games and show me a society without violence, without crime, without horrible acts?

If you want to blame parents for allowing the tv to raise the child than that I agree with. It's not the tv's fault that the parent doesn't (a) take the time to check what the kid is watching, or (b) talk with the kid about what he/she sees on tv and in video games and explain the difference between that and real life. My parents let me have a tv in my room when I was 8. I had video games all along as they were being invented. The difference is, I also had parents who paid attention to me and explained to me the difference between fantasy and reality.

[Lev]

I am more willing to forgive acts of violence against people than against animals.


+1 - We have 3 cats and this is really sick beyond belief.

[R_of_G]

+1 - We have 3 cats and this is really sick beyond belief.

We have two whom I love no less than I would my own human child. Had this been one of mine I would be out for blood.

[Bloozcat]

If someone did that to my cat, they'd better hope that the authorities got to them before I did...

Hopefully, the Canadian authorities are looking into the home lives of these boys. Animal cruelty is often an indicator of child abuse, and often manifests itself later in life when the child reaches adulthood and become the abuser himself. This is pretty common knowledge, but here's a link that discusses the problem.
http://www.sniksnak.com/ac/abuse.html

[duhvoodooman]

R_of_G,

I can't speak for TJCurtin1, but my point was not to blame the media, but what I see as a continual slackening of moral standards in our society as a whole. The media ultimately only provides what we ask it to by our buying & viewing habits. Reading the news each day only seems to reveal new low points in how we treat our fellow man, animals, and our environment in general. And rather than focus on what is truly important, instead we choose to wallow--and revel--in Britney's latest pathetic misadventures. Hence my comment that ours is a decadent society, and getting worse by the day. It's truly sad, IMO.

[R_of_G]

I see what you're saying DVM, and to some extent I agree. We could impose all the moral standards we want [though I find them subjective] but ultimately it comes down to personal responsibility. The parents of these kids seem to have abdicated theirs.

[stingx]

When it comes to f00ked up kids I ALWAYS look to the parents. You know the apples don't fall far from the tree...

[Spudman]

Interesting how we defend the very animals that other cultures look at as merely food.

Ya it's stupid to do what they did, but is it any different than before microwaves? Haven't kids always done stupid things to animals or even each other? How come nobody is outraged that children in Brazil are carrying guns and shooting other children simply because of infantile reasons like "he just made me mad or he swore at me or any other number of childish reasons?

RoG and Sting are right that parents are the reason these things happen. Education and moral blueprints are the parents responsibility for sure, but I'll also blame a society that has made people believe in a capitalistic way of life to the extent that both parents have to work and cannot attend as readily to a child's upbringing. If you spend more time around a child and teaching a child they do and develop as they see and learn. Want good kids? Be good and teach good.

Voodoo makes a good point too about the fact that we accept this kind of information as part of our daily intake. So lets look at the fact that because of instant worldwide information we hear more often about these types of events. I'm sure these things went on before. We just never heard about them as often because information wasn't readily available. If Robert had not of posted this most of us probably wouldn't have any idea that it happened and life would continue on as usual.

You guys are all worked up over this cat incident, but nobody is saying anything about innocent people being blown up, killed or tortured around the world. Why is that?

[R_of_G]

You guys are all worked up over this cat incident, but nobody is saying anything about innocent people being blown up, killed or tortured around the world. Why is that?

Believe me, if we were allowed to talk about "politics" here, you'd have heard it from me a LONG time ago.

[Lev]

You guys are all worked up over this cat incident, but nobody is saying anything about innocent people being blown up, killed or tortured around the world. Why is that?

There are millions of sickening atrocities happening all over the world every day and commenting on this particular cat incident in no way minimizes those incidents. The concept of kids with machine guns blowing each other away is abhorrent to any sane human being. But because it's not something that most of us have to deal with on a daily basis is becomes easier to block from our consciousness. That's not to say that it's right to block this stuff out!!

This particular story I guess hit a chord with many of us pet owners and animal lovers because it's something we can relate to more easily than the issues you mention. Hence I felt sickened when reading this story.

[Spudman]

Believe me, if we were allowed to talk about "politics" here, you'd have heard it from me a LONG time ago.

Me too.:D

I'm curious how this cat issue is any different than human issues? Is it that humans are a political subject and animals aren't? It seems as if at the bottom of this it is about taking life needlessly and unrepentantly. Where and why should we draw a line between humans and animals?

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I just want to understand why there are these differences.

[R_of_G]

Me too.:D

I'm curious how this cat issue is any different than human issues? Is it that humans are a political subject and animals aren't? It seems as if at the bottom of this it is about taking life needlessly and unrepentantly. Where and why should we draw a line between humans and animals?

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I just want to understand why there are these differences.

Couldn't agree with you more if I tried Spud. My thoughts are that we allow ourselves to be steered by "political" ideas that create false differences between groups of people which allow us to justify some of the violence in the name of "protection." It is less plausible to imply that these differences apply to animals. For instance, you can't reasonably label a whole species of animals as "evil terrorists" and allow people to accept their destruction as beneficial to protecting our own interests.

[tunghaichuan]

There have always been sickening atrocities. There are more today mainly because:

1. There are more people in the world.

2. Communication is so interconnected and instantaneous that we find out about them immediately.

3. Technology makes it easier for atrocities to be perpetuated on a mass scale.

tung




There are millions of sickening atrocities happening all over the world every day and commenting on this particular cat incident in no way minimizes those incidents. The concept of kids with machine guns blowing each other away is abhorrent to any sane human being. But because it's not something that most of us have to deal with on a daily basis is becomes easier to block from our consciousness. That's not to say that it's right to block this stuff out!!

This particular story I guess hit a chord with many of us pet owners and animal lovers because it's something we can relate to more easily than the issues you mention. Hence I felt sickened when reading this story.

[WackyT]

I don't know of any other animal species outside of humans that promotes the total destruction of another division of their own species.

[tunghaichuan]

I don't know of any other animal species outside of humans that promotes the total destruction of another division of their own species.

Ants do. Ants and human beings are the only animals that make war on their own kind. But ants don't use manufactured weapons.

tung

[R_of_G]

There have always been sickening atrocities. There are more today mainly because:

1. There are more people in the world.

2. Communication is so interconnected and instantaneous that we find out about them immediately.

3. Technology makes it easier for atrocities to be perpetuated on a mass scale.

tung

Excellent points Tung. This is why I hesitate to lay any of the blame on "violent media," or lack of "moral guidelines" in society. These things aren't new, we're just more likely to hear about them now in our instant-news society.

[Spudman]

But we have the power and the ability to be different. To consciously make choices.

[duhvoodooman]

But we have the power and the ability to be different. To consciously make choices.
Amen. And too many of us, as a species, are making the wrong ones. Not that it's anything new. But there are nearly 7 billion of us now....

[tunghaichuan]

But we have the power and the ability to be different. To consciously make choices.

The human race has always had this ability, at least as far as modern humans go. But we never seem to exercise this options as a race, do we?

I would argue that we are not any more philosophically advanced today than 3-4 thousand years ago. Today we can kill more people on a larger scale due to technology. In fact, I think this is the root of it all: violence is an extremely effective tool for change. It is an easy path to take, and a quick one at that. If someone doesn't agree with you, kill them, problem solved until someone decides to kill you. The technology makes it even easier.

For every Buddha, Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, there have always been thousands like Atilla the Hun, Hitler, or Idi Amin. While pacifism is a lofty ideal, it is an impractical one. The question for me is how does a pacifistic group of people protect themselves from another group who is inherently violent.

One co-worker remarked that when a people of superior technology come in contact with a people of lesser technology, it almost never goes well for those with lesser technology.

Tung

[R_of_G]

for the second time in this thread, i agree with tung wholeheartedly.

[pes_laul]

that is sickening a similar event happened last week in kent city when a stray cat had its ears cut off

[Justaguyin_nc]

I got 16 cats..inside and outside..
they are as humane as any creature..
as loving as any spouse..
as caring as any parent..

You probably know what I would do if I could get away with it..
Darn DNA and Forensic science!


So I just got two things to say..

1) Lynch the kids by their.."ya knows" but don't kill them..
thats just not the correct thing for humans to do..:master:

Then tell them it's not their fault.. it's their parents,
the media and the times we live in :whatever:

2) Tortured deaths? This stuff happens daily to Humans..
what's the difference.. NONE.
Let the Nuke wars begin worldwide already!!
those that survive.. let's start over the right way..
whatever that may be or not be..
Im tired of hearing about it..
I got bread to feed those that come in hunger..
I got guns for those that come in anger...
let it be their choice..not mine...:bravo:

nuff said..:thwap:

press the buttons already :poke: press the buttons already

[pie_man_25]

That is just sick and disgusting! I have always believed in an eye for an eye for any crime you commit. Place these kids in a giant industrial microwave and let them feel exactly what that poor cat felt.


I agree that the very notion of such a thing is just sick and disgusting, and I personally hate cats and dogs, however would not consider such a thing, however, to say an eye for an eye would leave us ALL blind, I understand and agree with your anger, but disagree with this point, consider this, what if those kids parents then put YOU into a microwave and showed you how you made them feel? what if your wife got your brother(s) and friends and put them in a microwave etc..., re-enacting this isn't going to make this a better place, it's just going to keep us hating. I unerstand your feelings, however I disagree with your opinion, and that, is what disgusts me, to quote a 2,000 year old carpenter: he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword, love the sinner, hate the sin.

also, in response to media, consider that it is the responsibility of the parents/guardians to make sure that their child is only exposed to positive media.

[pie_man_25]

I would argue that we are not any more philosophically advanced today than 3-4 thousand years ago. Today we can kill more people on a larger scale due to technology. In fact, I think this is the root of it all: violence is an extremely effective tool for change. It is an easy path to take, and a quick one at that. If someone doesn't agree with you, kill them, problem solved until someone decides to kill you. The technology makes it even easier.

For every Buddha, Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, there have always been thousands like Atilla the Hun, Hitler, or Idi Amin. While pacifism is a lofty ideal, it is an impractical one. The question for me is how does a pacifistic group of people protect themselves from another group who is inherently violent.
Tung

to answer your question tung, to make lasting peace is to be prepared for war, adolf hitler knew he could strike because the USA was in their isolationist phase, and the other nations were exahausted and would simply appease them until he may have gotten too powerful, I don't exactly know the social situations of attila or Idi Amin, nor dhave I heard of the latter. But to make lasting peace you need to change our minds with the truth, remember that Adolf Hitler was VOTED into power by telling his people what they agreed with and also that their situation was caused by jewish people, you get the point that a lie told often enough becomes the truth, its called transcending the lie. I personally am a pacifist, I don't believe in violence as a problem solver, but unfortunately when somebody isn't willing to listen and act with reason, you need to defend yourself, it doesn't mean that you enjoy it, or even that you need to harm them, you could simply be restraing them, until they are willing to listen, or are at least in a docile state, and unfortunately you are left with no choice but to respond in a negative way afterwards. You don't have to like it.

in this instance you should probably watch the anime trigun, there's a lot of fiction there, but you could undertand a lot from it.

[tunghaichuan]

Pie_man_25,

My question was rhetorical, there are no purely pacifist societies. They cannot exist in a world where violence is inherent.


But to make lasting peace you need to change our minds with the truth, remember that Adolf Hitler was VOTED into power by telling his people what they agreed with and also that their situation was caused by jewish people, you get the point that a lie told often enough becomes the truth, its called transcending the lie.

For me truth is an elastic concept. Who's truth? How many people have died fighting over the "truth" of your capenter's words?


I personally am a pacifist, I don't believe in violence as a problem solver, but unfortunately when somebody isn't willing to listen and act with reason, you need to defend yourself, it doesn't mean that you enjoy it, or even that you need to harm them, you could simply be restraing them, until they are willing to listen, or are at least in a docile state, and unfortunately you are left with no choice but to respond in a negative way afterwards. You don't have to like it.

Being a pacifist is pretty cut and dried for me. Anyone who uses violence for any reason is not pacifist by my definition. Thus, you can see the dilema: how do you insure that your beliefs continue on if you can be wiped out by violence at any time.

I agree with you, an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind. Rather, I would see these individuals punished by being made to wear an orange prison jumpsuit, chained together and out on the highways year around picking up trash. Maybe two or three years of this and then put on probation so that they could be watched. If they showed no signs of sociopathy, then they would have paid their debt. If they showed little or no remorse, then they would be locked away to prevent them from being a threat to society.

tung

[just strum]

Wow, this sure brought out some anger. I lean towards what Tung has noted. I may place a little more emphasis on the parents or lack of.

Our prison system here or almost anywhere in the world serves little use other then development centers of prisoners that will most likely commit far more heinous crimes upon release.

What needs to be taught is REALITY. People must learn at a very young age the impact of their actions, both good and bad.

[R_of_G]

For me truth is an elastic concept. Who's truth? How many people have died fighting over the "truth" of your capenter's words?

You're 3 for 3 with me today Tung. Objective/absolute truth is something in which I don't believe.

[tunghaichuan]

You're 3 for 3 with me today Tung. Objective/absolute truth is something in which I don't believe.

I have been told by more than one person that I don't perceive reality "normally" (whatever that is). It is nice to have at least one person agree with me; it makes gives me hope that I'm not totally insane :messedup:

tung

[R_of_G]

I have been told by more than one person that I don't perceive reality "normally" (whatever that is). It is nice to have at least one person agree with me; it makes gives me hope that I'm not totally insane :messedup:

tung

Yeah, I seem to hear that a lot myself. Once I was having a conversation/debate about violence and war with my dad who told me "you sound like John Lennon." I think he was trying to insult me but it was one of the nicest things anyone has ever said about me.

[oldguy]

Recipe for success...

Teach, your children well... that they are not superior beings, meant for a higher purpose, but evolved from lower life forms, which they have the right to enslave, torture, devour, and kill.
Assimilate, those who disagree with you. By whatever means necessary. If they won't conform, castigate and discard them, they are worthless.
Destroy.....anything that stands in the way of your goal......which is...?????

And the madness continues.....
Blame the parents, blame the religion, blame the politics, blame the country, blame the lawyers, blame the leaders, terrorists, etc, etc, etc........
Then..... Keep some vittles on hand for friends...and some bullets on hand for enemies...and know the difference between the two.

Keep fighting the good fight, whether you ultimately make a difference or not.
Microwaving an animal....as I said..... too sick for words.

[Kazz]

First and foremost, these kids are despicable. I am more willing to forgive acts of violence against people than against animals.


At least people can try and defend themselves.....poor animals....This kind of stuff really makes you wonder.....then there is that story of the guy down in Texas who called the police to say he had killed his girlfriend and was in the process of cooking her....The world has gone to hell in a handbasket.

[R_of_G]

The world has gone to hell in a handbasket.

I agree with what Tung said earlier, we've been like this for a long long time, we just hear about it more often now. Brutality is, unfortunately, one of our oldest and most enduring traits.

[just strum]

I agree with what Tung said earlier, we've been like this for a long long time, we just hear about it more often now.

That's the result of a media blitz and the unfortunate perceived urge to stop and look at the train wreck.

I will not give up on the human race and I believe some day we will grow tired of people and shows that cater to violent views.

[R_of_G]

That's the result of a media blitz and the unfortunate perceived urge to stop and look at the train wreck.

I will not give up on the human race and I believe some day we will grow tired of people and shows that cater to violent views.

We very well may, but I doubt that will put an end to the violence, just an end to how much of it we hear about. The violence has been there all along and has not shown signs of abating to this point so as pessimistic as it may seem, I see no reason to see the trend suddenly reversing itself. Whether we look at it or not, the train wreck still happens.

[Bloozcat]

The arguement that if we practice "an eye for an eye and soon we'll all be blind", is really over simplified. It assumes that the world is equally divided between the perpetrators of evil and those who are basically good. It also assumes that vengence will be the automatic response to evil, instead of justice. If we believe in the just rule of law, then it's justice we seek, not vengence. What a society considers to be just punishment is, of course, a matter of debate.

I'll admit that my first reaction to something like what occured here had it happened to my pet, would be vengence. But in reality, I am a law abiding citizen and I would have deferred to the justice system instead -even if I might have reservations as to it's ability to render true justice.

[just strum]

I just received this in an e-mail and thought it somewhat fit the discussion. It's one of those "Pass it on to 10 people" e-mails and I honestly never have done that until now. Some of you older folks will enjoy the walk down memory lane, you younger folks missed an enjoyable time, but this period in life can be even more enjoyable if we wake up.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN...?

All the girls had ugly gym uniforms?


It took five minutes for the TV warm up?


Nearly everyone's Mom was at home when the kids got home from school?

Nobody owned a purebred dog?



When a quarter was a decent allowance?


You'd reach into a muddy gutter for a penny?

Your Mom wore nylons that came in two pieces?

All your male teachers wore neckties and female teachers had their hair done every day and wore high heels?

You got your windshield cleaned, oil checked, and gas pumped, without asking, all for free, every time? And you didn't pay for air? And, you got trading stamps to boot?

Laundry detergent had free glasses, dishes or towels hidden inside the box?

It was considered a great privilege to be taken out to dinner
at a real restaurant with your parents?

They threatened to keep kids back a grade if they failed. . . and they did?

When a 57 Chevy was everyone's dream car...to cruise, peel out, lay rubber or watch submarine races, and people went steady ?

No one ever asked where the car keys were because they were always in the car,
in the ignition, and the doors were never locked?

Lying on your back in the grass with your friends
and saying things like, 'That cloud looks like a '
and playing baseball with no adults to help kids with the rules of the game?

Stuff from the store came without safety caps and hermetic seals because no one had yet t ried to poison a perfect stranger?

And with all our progress, don't you just wish, just once,
you could slip back in time and savor the slower pace,
and share it with the children of today?

When being sent to the principal's office was nothing
compared to the fate that awaited the student at home?

Basically we were in fear for our lives,
but it wasn't because of drive-by shootings, drugs, gangs, etc. Our parents and grandparents were a much bigger threat!
But we survived because their love was greater than the threat.

Send this on to someone who can still remember
Nancy Drew, the Hardy Boys, Laurel and Hardy,
Howdy Dowdy and the Peanut Gallery,
the Lone Ranger, The Shadow Knows,
Nellie Bell , Roy and Dale, Trigger and Buttermilk.


As well as summers filled with bike rides, baseball games,
Hula Hoops, bowling and visits to the pool, and eating
Kool-Aid powder with sugar. Didn't that feel good, just to
go back and say, 'Yeah, I remember that'?



I am sharing this with you today because it ended with a double dog dare to pass it on. To remember what a double dog dare is, read on. And remember that the perfect age is somewhere between old enough to know better and too young to care.

How many of these do you remember?

Candy cigarettes

Wax Coke-shaped bottles with colored sugar water inside
Soda pop machines that dispensed glass bottles


Coffee shops with tableside jukeboxes


Blackjack, Clove and Teaberry chewing gum



Home milk delivery in glass bottles with cardboard stoppers


Newsreels before the movie
P.F. Fliers


Telephone numbers with a word prefix...(Raymond 4-601).
Party lines


Peashooters
Howdy Dowdy

45 RPM records

Green Stamps
Hi-Fi's

Metal ice cubes trays with levers
Mimeograph paper
Beanie and Cecil

Roller-skate keys
Cork pop guns
Drive ins

Studebakers

Washtub wringers
The Fuller Brush Man
Reel-To-Reel tape recorders
Tinkertoys

Erector Sets
The Fort Apache Play Set
Lincoln Logs

15 cent McDonald hamburgers


5 cent packs of baseball cards - with that awful pink slab of bubble gum
Penny candy
35 cent a gallon gasoline


Jiffy Pop popcorn

Do you remember a time when...

Decisions were made by going 'eeny-meeny-miney-moe'?
Mistakes were corrected by simply exclaiming, 'Do Over!'?
'Race issue' meant arguing about who ran the fastest?
Catching the fireflies could happily occupy an entire evening?


It wasn't odd to have two or three 'Best Friends'?

The worst thing you could catch from the opposite sex was 'cooties'?


Having a weapon in school meant being caught with a slingshot?

A foot of snow was a dream come true?

Saturday morning cartoons weren't 30-minute commercials for action figures?

'Oly-oly-oxen-free' made perfect sense?
Spinning around, getting dizzy, and falling down was cause for giggles?

The worst embarrassment was being picked last for a team?
War was a card game?

Baseball cards in the spokes transformed any bike into a motorcycle?
Taking drugs meant orange-flavored chewable aspirin?

Water balloons were the ultimate weapon?

If you can remember most or all of these, then you have lived!!!!!!!

Pass this on to anyone who may need a break from their 'grown-up' life . .

I double-dog-dare-ya! !




I have lived it....

[R_of_G]

Strum, you aren't suggesting that during the time period referenced things were "better" in regards to the general topic at hand here though, right? Nostalgia is nice, but it can be blinding as well. Maybe society did a better job of keeping it's ills out of the spotlight, but they were no less there.

[Bloozcat]

Geez strum....

If that doesn't make you feel your age, I don't know what will...

I remember all of it...and more....:)

[tunghaichuan]

I just received this in an e-mail and thought it somewhat fit the discussion. It's one of those "Pass it on to 10 people" e-mails and I honestly never have done that until now. Some of you older folks will enjoy the walk down memory lane, you younger folks missed an enjoyable time, but this period in life can be even more enjoyable if we wake up.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN...?

[snip]

I have lived it....

Strum,

I take your point, but wasn't it also at this time when black people were still lynched on a regular basis? A black man couldn't marry a white woman? Black people had to use different bathrooms, couldn't eat in the same restaurants as whites? etc.

Husbands could beat their wives and children without fear of prosecution. Women had to stay in these marriages as there were no other options and divorce wasn't one of them.

It was at this time that 6 million Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps. And millions of Russian, American, British, Australian, and Canadian soldiers died stopping the Nazis.

It was around this time that Mao and the Communists took over China. How many millions were persecuted under his regime?

There was still apartied in South Africa.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

On a more personal level: it was at this time that my grandfather would regularly beat the sh!t out of my mother, my uncle and her two sisters. And not only was he physically abusive, he was emotionally and verbally abusive. My mother came from a "decent" middle class home. My mother and her siblings still bear the emotional scars today.

For the vast majority of people, the world has always been a sick, ugly, violent place. I know it looks like I'm only focusing on the bad, but OTOH, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

I gave up on humanity a long time ago. And even when someone comes along who transcends the violence and hatred, who preaches love and tolerance; this person usually has to die for his/her beliefs.

You may think I'm a cynic, but I'm not. I came to terms with the fact that I'm a frustrated idealist. This is what depresses me so about the human condition so: humanity as a group is capable of great things. But the majority always seem to choose stupidity, hatred, intolerance and violence. As a race, humanity is doomed unless we evolve into something better.

tung

[tunghaichuan]

Strum, you aren't suggesting that during the time period referenced things were "better" in regards to the general topic at hand here though, right? Nostalgia is nice, but it can be blinding as well. Maybe society did a better job of keeping it's ills out of the spotlight, but they were no less there.

Thanks, R_of_G. You stated what I meant to say more eloquently (and briefly) than I did.

Strum, that idlyllic middle-class america illusion never existed for the vast majority of the world. If it existed for you, then count yourself blessed. You are very lucky indeed and I envy you.

tung

[R_of_G]

surprise, surprise, we agree again Tung.:bravo:

[tunghaichuan]

To backtrack a little, I haven't given up totally on humanity. This forum is proof that things aren't completely bad. Everyone I've met on this forum has been great, and it gives me hope that if a community like this exists, then others may exist as well. :AOK:

tung

[stingx]

I'll stick up for an animal, or a baby, and even the elderly over an adult human being any day. People cause their own problems in life...a ripple in a pond as it were that then reaches onto others such as their offspring. I can't and don't feel bad for starving people in Africa, for instance. There's issues there that those people need to address themselves, for instance. You can send them all the food you want but if their current infrastructure hoards up all the offerings what can you do right? Here's rule number one - take care of you and your own first. You want kids? You better be the best damn parent on the planet. You have an obligation to ensure that kid doesn't end up a serial killer, etc. If everyone stove to "do the right thing" there'd be far less problems. Now let me tip out of this thread before I start going off big time. Remember, just because they eat dog in Korea doesn't mean I have to view mine as a meal.

[just strum]

Tung, exactly correct. During those times many things you noted were happening, but all of the things in that e-mail were also happening. 30, 40 or 50 years later we remember the good things and it brings joy. Few of us were impacted by the things you list, although millions of others were. Many people back then weren't aware of the things you listed due to the inability at the time of the media to reach a lot of people as they can today. Or, they have blocked it out of their mind. There are atrocities today as much as there were back then.

To dwell on the negative only results in revenge. Look at the Middle East, much of the fighting can be linked back to hundreds of years ago and they fight because they dwell on it.

If the world survives, people will look back on these times we live in now with fondness.

To dwell on the negative only results in revenge. Look at the Middle East, much of the fighting can be linked back to hundreds of years ago and they fight because they dwell on it.

This has gotten way OT, but some interesting points were made.

As for my cat, fortunately she's so damn big (30 lbs+) she wouldn't fit in the micro.

Tung, don't give up on humanity.

[just strum]

Geez strum....

If that doesn't make you feel your age, I don't know what will...

I remember all of it...and more....:)

I know exactly what you are saying. As I read it for the first time I was flashing back to different parts of my life. I would say I experienced about 75% of it and that's enough.

[sunvalleylaw]

I think that the light is often outnumbered by the dark. I am optimistic about which will prevail in the end.

[R_of_G]

I think that the light is often outnumbered by the dark. I am optimistic about which will prevail in the end.

Dark and light are a matter of perspective. As there are no absolutes we should strive for balance. You can't ever eliminate a concept [ie, "evil"].

[ted s]

Hey Strummy, howzabout a pic of said 30 lb. feline ?

[sunvalleylaw]

Dark and light are a matter of perspective. As there are no absolutes we should strive for balance. You can't ever eliminate a concept [ie, "evil"].




Hmm. Interesting point to ponder further. I posted longer last night, but pulled it as I felt is was too outside the limits of this thread and forum. I still think cooking cats is dark, but how one approaches the situation and handles the kids involved is complicated and would require insight, compassion, accountability and balance. I thought Tung had some good ideas on a sentence recommendation for them. I would want to understand the instant facts and the social histories involved before saying anything more specific however.

[Bloozcat]

It is a natural thing for people to view the state of the world within the confines of their existence. We in the western world have lived our lives in relative security since WWII. So, to say that we're going to hell in a hand basket, is relative to what we have known in our short existence, both as a people today and as a country (the USA that is, although Canada's existence as a nation pretty much parallels that of the US). It doesn't take into account the horrific events that have been a part of history since shortly after man came on the scene. Unfathomable evil and atrocities have occurred all throughout history and will likely occur again. The times change, the years change, civilizations change, but man doesn't. While most human beings are basically good, many human beings also display an inexplicable tendency to follow those who are evil as well. Man never learns the lessons of history, and so dooms himself to repeat them.

Life in this country is certainly less innocent than it was in the late 40's, 50's, and into the 60's. People in general were less cynical then, more caring about their neighbors and even strangers, and more moral and ethical than today. No, that doesn't mean that everyone has gone bad, just that there are more today who don't give a crap. We wouldn't have all the law suits we see today if that wasn't the case. We'd see fewer broken homes if people of today took committments as seriously as they did then. And no, just because there was spousal abuse then that wasn't reported, that it was widespread in families. People were less interested in instant gratification, and more concerned with something more lasting like family. It wasn't a perfect period by any means, but the moral fabric of the nation then was more solid than it is today. I've lived through most of this period, and I can attest to the changes. While I wouldn't want to trade the good things we have today for what we lacked back then, neither do I like it that the good things from then have been traded in many cases for worse today.

[duhvoodooman]

Very well said, BC. :AOK:

[Tone2TheBone]

This is by far the best thread I've ever read anywhere. Keep it up.

ps - I can still hear Data talking anytime you post your thoughts Blooz.

[tot_Ou_tard]

Look at our popular culture - death and destruction on TV and in movies as entertainment and then (apologies to you gamers) video games in which you score points for perpetrating horrific acts of violence.... Why should we be so surprised?
When I grew up boys used to put firecrackers in frogs. I hated that & said so, I got teased a lot, but that's nothing in the scheme of things.

[R_of_G]

I would want to understand the instant facts and the social histories involved before saying anything more specific however.

And that's exactly my point Steve. Every case is unique.

[R_of_G]

People in general were less cynical then, more caring about their neighbors and even strangers, and more moral and ethical than today.

Now that is a matter of perspective. For example, I doubt very many who lived under segregation would consider the 1950's a more moral/ethical time than today when it does not exist. Morals/ethics can only be subjective as there is no such thing as absolute truth in which to ground them. We can all agree that something sounds ethical but does that make it universally true? Does anything make it universally true? I certainly don't think so. I'm not saying as a society we shouldn't strive to determine an ethical code, but when we decide that it is something that applies in all situations across the board we are teetering on the edge of authoritarianism.

BTW, thanks to Spud for expanding this thread. This is the most interesting OT discussion we've had and I think we are all doing a good job of respecting one another [not that I am surprised by that].

[Bloozcat]

Now that is a matter of perspective. For example, I doubt very many who lived under segregation would consider the 1950's a more moral/ethical time than today when it does not exist. Morals/ethics can only be subjective as there is no such thing as absolute truth in which to ground them. We can all agree that something sounds ethical but does that make it universally true? Does anything make it universally true? I certainly don't think so. I'm not saying as a society we shouldn't strive to determine an ethical code, but when we decide that it is something that applies in all situations across the board we are teetering on the edge of authoritarianism.

BTW, thanks to Spud for expanding this thread. This is the most interesting OT discussion we've had and I think we are all doing a good job of respecting one another [not that I am surprised by that].

Relax R_of_G, it was a general statement of an overview of society as a whole back then. Yes, there were specific issues back then that have been addressed as time has passed, but this should not be seen as a zero sum game. To put it in a more positive light, think of the better aspects of society back then, accompianied by advances in civil rights right along with it. They don't have to be mutually exclusive of each other. In fact, if these two issues had evolved together as I've described, perhaps there would have been less of a breakdown of the black family. I work a lot (most of my time in the field) in black areas, and it's really disheartening to see the dysfunction. Again, if society in general had more of a committment to family, don't you think that this could have translated into a higher level of committment in the black community as well? You've jumped from a general premise to the specific to the absolute in your arguement R_of_G. Societal norms are never absolute, they're just the prevailing mores of that society as dictated by the people of that society in general. My only wish in this is that society could have realized the need for maintaining societal committments in general , just as it had in realizing that inequality and segregation was wrong specifically.

[R_of_G]

Relax? I'd ask how you could determine my mood from typed words but what's the point. I think I'll just bow out of this thread. For the record, I'm as calm as a still pond, but it's irrelevant.

[Bloozcat]

Relax? I'd ask how you could determine my mood from typed words but what's the point. I think I'll just bow out of this thread. For the record, I'm as calm as a still pond, but it's irrelevant.

It's ok, buddy!

I guess you could say that the underlined, italicized, and bold, that sort of came off as a little excited...:D

[R_of_G]

It's all good Bloozcat. You're still cool with me. If I came across in anyway as offensive to you I cry your pardon. I've enjoyed this thread and though we disagree I respect both your opinion and the well thought out way youve expressed it so far. :AOK:

[Bloozcat]

It's all good Bloozcat. You're still cool with me. If I came across in anyway as offensive to you I cry your pardon. I've enjoyed this thread and though we disagree I respect both your opinion and the well thought out way youve expressed it so far. :AOK:

Same here! No offense intended, no offense taken. :AOK:

I just enjoy debates. It's always good to hear opposing points of view, lest we get a little stale in our thinking...

[just strum]

Hey Strummy, howzabout a pic of said 30 lb. feline ?

Ok, it will help take the edge off of the thread. I agree it's a good thread, but maybe the interpretation got a little twisted.

Ok, I never took a picture of her, but I tracked her down. I tried to pick her up and give you a shot on the scale, but she would have no part of it. She doesn't look 30+, but my son has weighed her and I can assure you she is over 30. As you can tell, she's really pissed at me.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h16/auroraohio/Picture222.jpg

She weights more than these two deadbeats put together.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h16/auroraohio/Picture220.jpg

[R_of_G]

It's always good to hear opposing points of view, lest we get a little stale in our thinking...

Exactly! If we all thought the same way about everything, the world would be very boring.

[just strum]

Exactly! If we all thought the same way about everything, the world would be very boring.

...and almost assured to be doomed.

It's different view points that keep things honest or as close to honest as possible.:AOK:

[ted s]

Neat pics Strum, some of my best friends are cats and dogs ;)

Has ElCato experienced any kidney or liver issues being a "big boned" girl ?

[pie_man_25]

Pie_man_25,

My question was rhetorical, there are no purely pacifist societies. They cannot exist in a world where violence is inherent.



For me truth is an elastic concept. Who's truth? How many people have died fighting over the "truth" of your capenter's words?



Being a pacifist is pretty cut and dried for me. Anyone who uses violence for any reason is not pacifist by my definition. Thus, you can see the dilema: how do you insure that your beliefs continue on if you can be wiped out by violence at any time.

I agree with you, an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind. Rather, I would see these individuals punished by being made to wear an orange prison jumpsuit, chained together and out on the highways year around picking up trash. Maybe two or three years of this and then put on probation so that they could be watched. If they showed no signs of sociopathy, then they would have paid their debt. If they showed little or no remorse, then they would be locked away to prevent them from being a threat to society.

tung

what you should also consider, is that this carpenter you ignorantly assumed was mine I never really believed in, I simply used it as a reference to say that this isn't solving anything, and yes I can see your point that much killing has been done in his name, which is exactly why I don't believe in him anymore. However, who's to say that that kid deserves to be put in a jumpsuit, after all if there is no real truth then who are we to say that this kid truly deserves this fate, what do you say if he isn't a sociopath? I'm sorry you now have a criminal record, have gone through with that and you can't get a job and I ruined your life? But at the same time,if he is a sociopath, he should be put ins some sort of assylum, I agree with you there, but who sould decide what fate befalls him is my question to you.

we should remember that insanity is measured by those thought to be sane, what is sane? what is right and wrong? is society right? I mean, this one guy beat the shit out of a 93 year-old man because he couldn't get out of the way fast enough, and people are barely ever saving seats for the elderly on buses anymore, those who wear hats rarely ever tip them. But at the same time, in this day age people are more free to accept political opinions and decide faith and jobs for themselves, are we willing to trade freedom for decency? how free is too free? how do we define decency? should we try to be both, accepting and decent? what I'm trying to say is that society literally can't be perfect.

[just strum]

I agree with you, an eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind. Rather, I would see these individuals punished by being made to wear an orange prison jumpsuit, chained together and out on the highways year around picking up trash. Maybe two or three years of this and then put on probation so that they could be watched. If they showed no signs of sociopathy, then they would have paid their debt. If they showed little or no remorse, then they would be locked away to prevent them from being a threat to society.

tung

Chain a bunch of sociopaths to each other and living together probably reduces the odds of them coming out three years later being remorseful. Where do criminals learn new scams, new ways to harm others - you probably would find most learn it in prison. Should we just kill them? It cost more to kill someone than it does to lock them up for life (all their free legal advise and cost of court time, appeals...).

This thread has so many side subjects, but the subject of punishment continues to come to the surface. Give me an example of one form of punishment utilized today that actually deters or reeducates the one being punished. Locking up the truly harden criminals is understandable, but locking up people for offenses like armed robbery, selling pot - well you get the idea. Anyone that comes out of prison and turns their life around has beaten the odds.

Another area that breeds crime, is poverty. I lived it, I came out of it and I will tell you right now that poverty is a recruiting ground for crime. Look at it on a grander scale - human bombers are usually from poor families and poor parts of the world. The leaders of these organizations would like you to think they do it for faith and their country, village, town or whatever, but so many of them are promised large sums of money for their family. How often do you hear about a wealthy man strapping a bomb to himself and walking into a store and blowing it up? Does oshama bin ladin have the ba77s to strap a bomb to his chest or fly a plane into a building - No, he recruits from poor regions of the world.

We need to reallocate our money for prisons and poor parts of the world to go towards eduction and housing and I feel we would see a drastic reduction in crime.

Thank you for your time and vote for me when you go to the polling booth.

[Spudman]

Sorry Strum. I can't vote for a man who doesn't know that the only real form of punishment that has been proven to correct and deter further criminal actions is being forced to listen to "Achy Breaky Heart" 24 hours a day. If you are planning to run for office you need to know these things. :D

[R_of_G]

Locking up the truly harden criminals is understandable, but locking up people for offenses like armed robbery, selling pot - well you get the idea.

Armed robbery and selling pot are comparable? When you add a weapon to the crime, you add the possibility that the weapon will be used. For example the guys that broke into Shawn Taylor's house and wound up shooting him intended to just commit robbery. When their intended victim turned out to be home, it escalated to murder. Without the gun that would not have happened. It'd still just be robbery though they'd have been caught. I'm not sure adding the potential for fatal violence can be compared to selling pot.

BTW Strum, I do agree with the rest of your post, particularly that none of our means of "punishment" actually do anything to prevent further crime.

[Justaguyin_nc]

Selling pot attached to armed robbers? Are you serious?
(only reason I posted in this again)
I never knew a soul on pot that went out and robbed more than a twinkie!
Selling meth/coke/crack maybe..but not pot! There is a HUGE difference.
Legalize it already! What a nice tax collection we can add!!:bravo:

now my added rant...(we all have them)

The poor (raises hand) who have lived through crimes
ranging from home invasions, armed robberies etc etc.

I lived through it and not blinded by give peace a chance although it would be nice.
Guns are needed in every home to prevent this.

The police can't be everyplace and are less likely to be in your POOR neighborhood when you need them.

Until you been home invaded or mugged and felt helpless at the time, you just wont get it. but will after.

I like the 3rd world laws for crimes and believe they have
less internal crime then we do.

don't pay your tax, prison used as slave labor.

Theft, cut off a hand.

Anything worse, Kill'em.

But then they kinda get crazy about women
compared to men and blow it. sigh

Take away all these rights we give those in prisons
and quit making them comfortable while the poor
freeze in the winter and burn through the summers
and go hungry.
Humane treatment does not include a
fittness room.

The average POOR person has a better home in prison.
Although not as nice a time with their neighbors.

Chain gangs, no air, little heat and basic food to survive
is how a prisoner should be treated.
That is why they are prisoners.
Then they probably would not want to be repeat offenders.

This has been a good thread for thought.
Unfortunate it seems, so many still believe in love and peace throughout the world.

You wont ever see it, Just enjoy the moments you do.

While the flowers are put in the barrels of guns, those
holding the guns will just grin and shoot it back at them.

Genicide, cleansing.. look around.. it's all happening every
day people.
head in the ground or your arse? pull it out already.

Ofcourse all this is meaningless.. the thread I mean.. think about
it..
From kids killing cats to all this religion to guns to theft
to smoking pot..whats the point?

we all got internet, guitars and someplace to use them in.
So we are not poor.. anymore..
and those kids killing that cat..
well, they probably will go with a slap on the wrist.
While We, will start another GAS thread... holding on to our opinions
and beliefs till something does happen to ummm us...which changes them.:thwap:

[Tone2TheBone]

Justa - Finally a gun thread! I'm in. *chambers a round in his Heckler & Koch*

just strum - I thought it was cheaper to terminate prisoners than to keep them alive?

Justa you're right this thread is a dead horsie already but I thought I'd ask one last question to strum.

[Robert]

I think I will soon close this thread. I think enough has been said, so hurry up if you have anything more to say.