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sunvalleylaw
March 4th, 2008, 10:23 PM
Dreadman graciously offered his knowledge on setting up acoustics and curing common ills. See below:

QUOTE
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunvalleylaw
It now has some serious fret buzzing issues and a hump in the neck where it joins the body and needs some work. If I fret high E at 10 at get a note at 12 or 13 right now." end SV quote


Dreadman then said:
Very common problem. If you want more info about it and the steps for a low effort, low cost do-it-yourself repair start a new thread and I'll post what I know. END QUOTE"


My acoustic has fret buzzing issues in open position, and due to what I am told is a hump in the neck where it joins the body, frets improperly. Example, fret high E string at 10 and get a note somewhere at 12 or 13. Seems to affect the higher pitched strings mostly. The Martin rep, when he was at the local store last year giving a seminar and giving out free re-stringings, said my nut may be a bit low and might ultimately need some shimming or something. He had it set up so it played better than before, monkeying around with my adjustable truss rod, but my guitar weeks later fell, and that good set up went away. I like the guitar, but it is not worth much I don't think, and don't want to spend much on a set up or repair. Here is a clip that demonstrates the fret buzzing problem. (ok, no jokes about the playing being the problem. I am working on that. ;) )

http://www.box.net/shared/9h25rks0s4

Thanks Dreadman, and any of you other knowledgeable acoustic folk, for any help you can offer. :)

Tone2TheBone
March 4th, 2008, 10:56 PM
The first thing I'd do is shim the bridge first...then maybe put a whole new tusq nut on it. Not saying it's the best thing to do mind you just the first thing I would do. And then I'd have me a beer. :)

luvmyshiner
March 5th, 2008, 08:16 AM
Steve, Dread's the "go to man" on these issues, but my understanding is that the dreaded (heh, heh) 12th fret hump can be caused by humidity problems. I began having a similar problem with my D10S about a month ago. Two weeks in a hard shell case with a humidifier took care of the problem. I did have to adjust the truss rod after the guitar re-humidified, but no biggie there.

There are a lot of little humidifiers commercially available. I use a home made one that Pike suggested on that "other" forum:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m159/luvmyshiner/P2240013.jpg

It's just a soap box, with holes drilled in the top, and a damp sponge inside. I would probably give that a shot before looking at adjusting the action.

Tone2TheBone
March 5th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Hey Shiner how often do you put the soapbox in the guitar case? Here in NM as you know it's dryer than dirt and I want to make sure mah new Martini is well taken care of.

sunvalleylaw
March 5th, 2008, 09:34 AM
My guitar had no humidification for the first 5 or 6 years I owned it, and I was not playing it much then. When I started playing it regularly, I started using one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-GUITAR-VIOLIN-CELLO-CLARINET-INSTRUMENT-HUMIDIFIER_W0QQitemZ360028313039QQihZ023QQcategory Z47077QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


It seemed to help, but I was not super regular, and over time it got worse. Humidity is part of the issue I think, but I think it has set up woes as well.

luvmyshiner
March 5th, 2008, 09:41 AM
Hey Tone. Most of the year our humidity level runs right around 46% which is great. During the winter months when we run our heater a lot (gas), the humidity drops to 30-35%. That's the time we usually start having problems. I start watching the guitars closer when the humidity drops below 40% for signs of humidity problems. Things like changes in the top of the guitar, the dreaded 12th fret hump, or unidentified buzzes and such. If I see any signs I go ahead and case the guitar with a humidifier.

Some of the guitars are more susceptible to humidity problems than others. I'm not sure why.

sunvalleylaw
March 5th, 2008, 09:47 AM
Taylors are reported to not do well up here in the high desert. Thin top. Martins, and the Gibsons made in Montana, also intermountain, do better.

sunvalleylaw
March 5th, 2008, 09:50 AM
Steve, Dread's the "go to man" on these issues, but my understanding is that the dreaded (heh, heh) 12th fret hump can be caused by humidity problems. I began having a similar problem with my D10S about a month ago. Two weeks in a hard shell case with a humidifier took care of the problem. I did have to adjust the truss rod after the guitar re-humidified, but no biggie there.

There are a lot of little humidifiers commercially available. I use a home made one that Pike suggested on that "other" forum:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m159/luvmyshiner/P2240013.jpg

It's just a soap box, with holes drilled in the top, and a damp sponge inside. I would probably give that a shot before looking at adjusting the action.

That is a good idea. A local guy who owns a lot of nice guitars uses a sponge in a plastic baggie with holes also. Cheaper and easier yet. I may try to get the guitar re-humidified that way, as the old school Herco one (clay in a plastic tin) does not seem to add enough humidity for this guitar's needs.

Cal
March 5th, 2008, 09:55 AM
During "central heating" season I use two "super guitar Dampits."

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj25/DetailFreak/DampitsWithR308S.jpg

One in the guitar body, hanging off the E and A strings, and one sitting loose above the accessories compartment. I also keep a digital hygrometer (here's a cheap one (http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Smallest-Digital-Hygrometer-for-HUMIDOR-w-Temp-NEW_W0QQitemZ220186443147QQihZ012QQcategoryZ11675Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)) in the case and aim for around 50% RH.

I first discovered this remedy from Dreadman when my D13S got "the hump." :messedup:

sunvalleylaw
March 5th, 2008, 09:59 AM
Ok, certainly I have humidity issues in this guitar, but the set up is also off. I know this because the Martin guy had it working pretty good, and when the gig bag dropped it, all that changed. I think I may need some set up with the truss rod, and also Tone's suggestion might be really good. But I am waiting on hearing from the Dreadman.

luvmyshiner
March 5th, 2008, 10:12 AM
Good point Cal, everyone needs at least one digital hygrometer to keep track of humidity. I have four. One that I use to keep track of the general humidity in the house, and three small ones that I put in cases.

Steve, I would still recommend making sure your guitar is properly humidified prior to doing a set up. If you set up your guitar, then humidify it, the changes in the guitar may require another set up afterwards.

Oh, and absolutely wait for Dread to check in before doing anything. That bugger always seems to pick up on things I either miss, or don't know about.:master:

Tone2TheBone
March 5th, 2008, 10:17 AM
Good thread you guys keep it up.

Steve how do you think the Martin will do where I live? I'm at 5000' above sea level but like you there in Idaho...it's high and dry. Where do I get one of those hydrometer or hygrometer thingies?

Cal
March 5th, 2008, 10:18 AM
Steve, could you take a pic looking sideways down the neck... something like this:

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj25/DetailFreak/DownTheNeckR308S.jpg

That would give us a fair idea as to what might be going on.
(Notice the top of the frets are virtually in a dead straight line... aiming for the top of the bridge.)

sunvalleylaw
March 5th, 2008, 10:31 AM
Yeah, I can do that, hopefully tonight.

sunvalleylaw
March 5th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Good thread you guys keep it up.

Steve how do you think the Martin will do where I live? I'm at 5000' above sea level but like you there in Idaho...it's high and dry. Where do I get one of those hydrometer or hygrometer thingies?


I would take care of it, but given decent care, they are not reputed to be super vulnerable, like the Taylors are reputed to be. Note I say reputed. I am just going on hearsay from guys at the shop and other local guitarists. Like I was mentioning, one local musician/sound guy who has a lot of nice guitars including Martins apparently does fine with the sponge technique. The Martins in the shop I frequent seem to do fine. The shop is humidified, but it is a big room and the door to the outside opens and closes a lot. They seem to do fine.

So given the level of care you give your stuff, I would think your new baby will be fine. :D :AOK:

Tone2TheBone
March 5th, 2008, 11:28 AM
I would take care of it, but given decent care, they are not reputed to be super vulnerable, like the Taylors are reputed to be. Note I say reputed. I am just going on hearsay from guys at the shop and other local guitarists. Like I was mentioning, one local musician/sound guy who has a lot of nice guitars including Martins apparently does fine with the sponge technique. The Martins in the shop I frequent seem to do fine. The shop is humidified, but it is a big room and the door to the outside opens and closes a lot. They seem to do fine.

So given the level of care you give your stuff, I would think your new baby will be fine. :D :AOK:

Well we have forced air heating AND burn the woodstove in the winter time and that eats up any moisture in the air real quick. I never even thought about what it does to guitars especially acoustic guitars until now. All the shops in town have their acoustics inside a closed room with humidifiers cranking away and now I suppose I'll have to do the same. My other acoustics seem to be doing ok though...I have no visible problems with them at all and I guess that's why I never paid it much thought.

Cal
March 5th, 2008, 12:08 PM
Well we have forced air heating AND burn the woodstove in the winter time and that eats up any moisture in the air real quick. I never even thought about what it does to guitars especially acoustic guitars until now. All the shops in town have their acoustics inside a closed room with humidifiers cranking away and now I suppose I'll have to do the same. My other acoustics seem to be doing ok though...I have no visible problems with them at all and I guess that's why I never paid it much thought.Tone, I'd guess the RH in your home is currently around the 25% mark. Too dry for solid wood acoustics.

The laminated wood babies fare quite well in all sorts of humidity for obvious reasons. But bear in mind that most fretboards are solid and you don't want the fret ends slicing your fingers off when the board shrinks. Also, any humidity excesses will affect the neck itself (usually through the fretboard as the back of the neck is normally sealed by its finish), which I think is probably Steve's problem.

So, during the winter I'd keep your guitars in their hard cases with humidifiers that let the moisture get to the whole guitar (Shiner's DIY ones are superb) and have a digital hygrometer (http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Smallest-Digital-Hygrometer-for-HUMIDOR-w-Temp-NEW_W0QQitemZ220186443147QQihZ012QQcategoryZ11675Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) in the case too, to make sure the RH is around 50%.

Just my 2 cents. :)

Tone2TheBone
March 5th, 2008, 12:13 PM
Tone, I'd guess the RH in your home is currently around the 25% mark. Too dry for solid wood acoustics.

The laminated wood babies fare quite well in all sorts of humidity for obvious reasons. But bear in mind that most fretboards are solid and you don't want the fret ends slicing your fingers off when the board shrinks. Also, any humidity excesses will affect the neck itself (usually through the fretboard as the back of the neck is normally sealed by its finish), which I think is probably Steve's problem.

So, during the winter I'd keep your guitars in their hard cases with humidifiers that let the moisture get to the whole guitar (Shiner's DIY ones are superb) and have a digital hygrometer (http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Smallest-Digital-Hygrometer-for-HUMIDOR-w-Temp-NEW_W0QQitemZ220186443147QQihZ012QQcategoryZ11675Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) in the case too, to make sure the RH is around 50%.

Just my 2 cents. :)

Thanks for your 2 cents! Done...I'm ordering one of those gadgets right now thank you for your assessment sir.

Btw Stephen S.T. Esquire I didn't mean to hijack your thread sorry!

KrisH
March 5th, 2008, 08:02 PM
Underhumidification can masquerade as many different problems. I played my old Hohner for several years, treating the fret buzzes by raising the saddle with shims and obliviously blaming the humped neck on bad construction. I finally decided that the neck on that guitar had serious problems, and bought my first new guitar -- a Washburn. But within a few weeks, it started exhibiting the same symptoms.

Enter Dreadman :master: , who posted on the WGF, where I went for help with my new **** guitar. I took the advice he gave and humidified the guitar and lo -- the buzzing stopped, the neck straightened out. I tried the treatment on the Hohner, and it ended up not having a neck problem at all. After letting both guitars reach a happy level of humidification, I did setups on them, complete with new bone saddles for each. And they both played just fine. (The Washburn had other unrelated problems.)

Ultimately, I got more guitars and other instruments sensitive to humidity extremes, and I thought it best to put a humidifier in each room of the house once the heating kicked in. You never know where you'll find a guitar, fiddle or bass propped up in our home! Besides, it helps with static electricity, sinuses, and general comfort .

So it might be a good idea to get the wood in the guitar back in decent condition before tweaking the truss rod or shimming up the saddle. But don't rehumidify it too quickly! It's the sudden changes in in moisture content that cause different parts of the guitar to contract or expand disproportionately, and could cause permanent damage.

That's just my experience, and what has been taught to me. :)

Dreadman
March 5th, 2008, 08:52 PM
Sorry I'm late to the party. I get lost in here sometimes. :D

Everyone's got good advice so I don't know how much more I can add. SVL's guitar is definitely seeing the effects of low humidity. Here's a quick list of low humidity related problems:

1.) Sunken top - A "flat top" guitar isn't actually flat. The top and back are radius-ed, meaning that they are like guitar shaped sections cut out of a big ball. When humidity gets low wood shrinks, primarily in the cross-grain direction. That means the width of a guitars top tries to get smaller. First it flattens out (loses it's dome shape), then the area between the soundhole and bridge dips down

2.) Cracks - If left dry long enough the top cracks along the grain. This is because the sides are holding the edges of the top while it shrinks so it gives somewhere in the middle, like a paper towel being pulled apart by the edges.

3.) Humped neck - When overly dry the fretboard (and to some extent, the neck) wood shrinks too. The hump where the fretboard meets the body isn't actually high, it's the rest of the fretboard/neck that has gotten low. The area in question stays high because the heel is under it and that makes more wood that would have to dry out before deforming.

4.) Neck warps, twists, bows, etc.... - Wood is a dynamic material and no two pieces are alike. When over dried (or, to a lesser extent over humidified) it can do all kinds of unexpected things. If the grain curves ever so slightly then drying it out could cause exaggeration of that curve. These issues aren't especially common in comparison to the three above so I won't go on and on.


The cure for all of this (if the instrument hasn't developed a permanent defect) is simply - add moisture (as noted in previous posts). This can be done by either adding humidity to the room that the guitar lives in or adding humidity to it in it's case (room humidifier vs. case humidifier). The trick is to be patient and add moisture slowly. Several weeks is typical so don't be discouraged after a week.


Taylor guitars are built with especially thin tops (lending to their signature sound) and that's why they must be cared for especially well. A lot of people bash Taylors for this reason but it's not fair. Thin tops are a way of pushing the envelope and, just like with cars, if you're going to go high performance there are extra precautions. Speaking of Taylor, here's Bob Taylor himself explaining about humidity in guitars - http://www.taylorguitars.com/see-hear/ Watch the video called "Humidity: The Symptoms". If you look around there there is also a video called "Understanding Humidity" - both are must see material.

SVL - if re-humidification doesn't fix your hump you'll have to consider having the frets (at least the few at the neck/body) leveled and crowned. It's not too expensive, as long as the rest of the frets are in reasonable condition a luthier or tech can probably lower the offending frets for less than $50.

I didn't hear any open string buzzing in your (very pleasing) recording but if you say it's there I believe you. Do this check - Hold down the low E string at the 3rd fret and look how close the string comes to the top of the second fret. You should be able to just slide a piece of paper between them (about .005"). If it's too close to see tap on the string above the second fret wire and listen for a "clinking" sound. If you hear it there's clearance and your nut slot is fine. Repeat this on all six strings. If your nut slots are indeed low (strings touching the second fret during this test) let us know and we'll hook ya up with some DIY nut raising info.

I may add more later after I re-read this and see what I forgot. LOL

Dreadman
March 5th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Oh yeah - 40% - 60% relative humidity is ideal for acoustic guitars. Higher RH will cause expansion of the wood which will raise the action, deaden the sound slightly and a few other minor things. Very little risk of damage though. My guitars have spent many summers in 80% - 90% RH with very little lasting effect. At the other end is where damage comes from. 20% RH for any extended period of time is a guitar killer.

In reality, every acoustic guitar owner should own at least one digital hygrometer (the needle type aren't as accurate). $10-$20 gets you a lot of information that's paramount to your guitars health.

sunvalleylaw
March 5th, 2008, 11:58 PM
Ok here is a link to some pics. I hope I got the angles right. If not, let me know I and I will re-shoot. I put it up quick on a .Mac page without editing well the text for the page, so kindly ignore any gibberish on the page.

http://web.mac.com/sunvalleylaw/Site/Last_Import.html



So it sounds like getting a hygrometer is in order, and making a coupla sponge thingies, and keeping moisture in them. No good letting them dry out, huh! I did the check you recommended Dread, and it is a close call on a couple. Paper will slide through, but I have to push on a couple. G, Low E, and high E seem a little sticky on the test. Also, though I get clinks on those strings, not very loud ones. We shall see how re-humidifying works.



Thanks for your 2 cents! Done...I'm ordering one of those gadgets right now thank you for your assessment sir.

Btw Stephen S.T. Esquire I didn't mean to hijack your thread sorry!


I don't consider that really a hijack, it is germane. Besides, what's a little hijacking among friends. Sounds like we are both in the market for some sponges, baggies or soapboxes and digital hygrometers. Cheap insurance I'd say.

Dreadman
March 6th, 2008, 12:05 AM
I could see the hump right away in the first two pics. The fretting problem high on the neck that you mentioned is the dead giveaway though.

I'd prescribe 50%-70% RH for two weeks, maybe three. Use either a room humidifier with hygrometer in the room or a couple case humidifiers with a hygrometer in the case.

If you do it in the case make sure the fretboard and one humidifier are in the same "air space". The other humidifier should be near the body, preferably in the soundhole. In some tight fitting guitar cases you can't humidify a fretboard effectively because the fretboard is covered by the plush case top. A big chipboard case would be better.

If you humidify a whole room just leave the guitar there. If it's in a case re-wet the humidifiers daily and check the progress.

Here's a cool litle trick - Tune it perfectly before you start humidification. As the wood absorbs moisture it will grow in size and the pitch of the strings will go up. You can re-tune it every day or two and get a feel for how much water it's absorbing. When the strings pitch stays in tune for a few days in a row you know the wood is at an equal humidity as the environment (no more growth). Of course before that point you'll probably have already noticed the hump is gone (or lowered significantly).

(EDITED TO ADD) You'll also notice the action going up during humidification. This is the top regaining it's domed shape (therefore lifting the bridge back up) and it's just what you want. If we can get the hump out of there, and you'd like to, we'll go through a set up next.

Dreadman
March 6th, 2008, 12:07 AM
If you're getting the clinks then your nut slots are probably fine. It's okay if the paper is tight, as long as it goes. All you're looking for is that the string isn't resting on the fret.

(EDITED TO ADD) Just a note - those who play acoustics hard will want this "nut action" a little bit higher than a sheet of paper, just like they'd want the rest of the action higher. Hard strums cause the strings to vibrate in a wider path so you want the frets a bit further away to prevent buzzing.

sunvalleylaw
March 6th, 2008, 12:14 AM
Thanks Dreadman. I won't be able to do whole room so case humidification it is. My case is a large archtop:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Musicians-Gear-Vintage-Dreadnought-Archtop-Case?sku=541694

(BTW, for the money, it is a nice case).

Getting a humidifier in the same airspace as the fretboard will be interesting. I could put one up by the headstock, and one in the sound hole for sure.

That trick you mentioned is interesting. I had noticed before that when we travel to western Washington State each summer, my guitar would go sharp on the way over, and flat on the way back. I figured it was due to this. After about 3 days, it would steady itself. But even after several days this time, the hump did not go away (though it lessened some), and it was still a buzzy. More than the year before when I also brought it on the trip. It was hugely humid too this last trip. You know, when your clothes get damp feeling just hanging out.


I could see the hump right away in the first two pics. The fretting problem high on the neck that you mentioned is the dead giveaway though.

I'd prescribe 50%-70% RH for two weeks, maybe three. Use either a room humidifier with hygrometer in the room or a couple case humidifiers with a hygrometer in the case.

If you do it in the case make sure the fretboard and one humidifier are in the same "air space". The other humidifier should be near the body, preferably in the soundhole. In some tight fitting guitar cases you can't humidify a fretboard effectively because the fretboard is covered by the plush case top. A big chipboard case would be better.

If you humidify a whole room just leave the guitar there. If it's in a case re-wet the humidifiers daily and check the progress.

Here's a cool litle trick - Tune it perfectly before you start humidification. As the wood absorbs moisture it will grow in size and the pitch of the strings will go up. You can re-tune it every day or two and get a feel for how much water it's absorbing. When the strings pitch stays in tune for a few days in a row you know the wood is at an equal humidity as the environment (no more growth). Of course before that point you'll probably have already noticed the hump is gone (or lowered significantly).

Dreadman
March 6th, 2008, 12:17 AM
That case will probably cover the fretboard too tightly. You could always do it in a garbage bag or cardboard box. Be creative.

luvmyshiner
March 6th, 2008, 08:12 AM
In some tight fitting guitar cases you can't humidify a fretboard effectively because the fretboard is covered by the plush case top.

One thing I've tried is to take a piece of heavy paper, and cut it down to size to place over the fretboard when you close the case. It makes, like a little tunnel to help keep the case top from sealing off the fretboard.

Tone2TheBone
March 6th, 2008, 09:41 AM
Wow these are really good tips. A veritable cornucopia of information. My daughter's taking violin lessons so her teacher also informed us of the effects of this dry climate here at home so yeah care of expensive violins is just as important as care of expensive guitars.

mrmudcat
March 6th, 2008, 10:12 AM
Thats what I like to see some rocking in the accoustic house!!!!! Great posts by every:beer: one!!!

sunvalleylaw
March 6th, 2008, 02:57 PM
I looked again at the case last night as I loaded in a freshly made "Sponge in a bag" humidifier and re-wetted the Herco. The arch over the body of the guitar leaves some room, and I bet combining that with the paper trick might work. I may also trash bag it for a while to be sure. I put the sponge in the sound hole, in the body, and the Herco between the body and the neck where it joins. There is a cavity there with some room. I may put another sponge up in the cavity for the head stock also. (Just to get the thing goin, like mojo nixon says.) I have to go find a digital hygrometer too, or order one in. I am not too worried about over humidifying right now as the climate is very dry right now, and the heat is being used in the house, as it is still getting to single digit temps at night.


Now, just because this thread is generating so much good info, let's have the tips on low nut slots, and other set up tips for our acoustic git-boxes. Thanks guys for all the participation. :) :D :DR

EDIT: The increased humidity by using the sponge trick and doubling up with one sponge humidifier, and the Herco pill box kind I already had, is already starting to make a difference. Thanks guys, I am really encouraged! I had been bummed about my first guitar that my wife had gotten me. I am going to get that thing humming again!

peachhead
March 6th, 2008, 11:23 PM
Wow...what a great thread. I have been thinking about the humidity, or lack of it, in the house for the last week- great timing. A hygrometer is definitely on my must have list.
Thanks for the excellent info!

mrmudcat
March 7th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Dread is good to us peaches brother.:beer:

wingsdad
March 7th, 2008, 09:28 AM
Like you, SVL Steve, I'm in a high desert, mine that of Southern California about 100 miles inland from LA, at about 3,500' above Sea Level, and the old Albert Hammond song rules: about 6-8" of rain a year, most of that in a couple of downpours. RH outdoors is seldom over 15%, and the RH in the house is never over 35%, and during winter, forced-air heating drops it to 25-30%.

While D-man is totally right about Taylor's thin tops (truly intentional as part of what delivers their reputed sound), the trick with Taylors is that their built about 5 miles from the Pacific, where it's nice and damp and the wood is pliable. When they come inland, like up here, they inevitably end up frustrating their owners, even those who think they're doing enough with a case humidifier, with cracking tops. They are that sensitive. I've seen quite a few of them like this...the ones that end up in pawn shops or at the local luthier (the guy who rebuilt my D40). We have a Taylor dealer here. He sells about 10 a year.

I subscribe to not casing my guitars so as to not: (a) smother the wood (b) allow any chance of heat or residual humidity from a case or soundhole humidifier to buildup, leading to possible permanent over-humidification swelling damage, and last, but not least, (c) to encourage me to grab one at will and play it.

So years ago, after nearly losing my ancient Guild D40 to this desert, its top's braces actually coming unglued on one big chord strum, leading to a $450, 3-month rehumidification and restoration, I decided it best to keep my acoustics and hollow/semi-hollow electrics in a 'humidor'. (The Colorado Rockies may have heard about it, and built one to keep their balls from getting too lively :whatever: )

I know my old friends from the WGF have seen this thing that I built - a crude, inexpensive, but effective cabinet in my den/music room's small walk-in closet. The closet's temp stays at about 68-70 degrees F, controlled by leaving the door open in winter during the day when the heat's not running and closing it in summer a/c months.

I run a little $30 cool-mist room humidifer loaded with distilled water for about an hour or so every couple of nights (I check nightly when I pull a guitar to noodle) to keep the closet's RH between 45-50%. I've got an analog hygro & thermo on top of the cab, and a Planet Waves Digital hygro/thermo thing inside it. The cabinet's bi-fold doors do not seal tightly, so air and humidity flow through under control.

Each roundhole acoustic has a Kyser Lifeguard in its soundhole (the Guild has a super-Dampit hanging inside to supplement that) and the f-hole electrics have smaller, thinner Dampit 'worms'. All of these are charged with distilled water in a weekly Saturday or Sunday ritual .

The rest of my less-sensitive guitars hang on the walls in the room (or the closet)...with dampits in the tops of the non-solids.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/GitCloset09307.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/wingsdad/GitCab022208.jpg

Since I got into this system, I swear...I haven't had ANY of the problems mentioned here with my acoustics. And most are all solid woods. I have to keep an eye on the Guild, but I've helped her out by stringing her for Nashville tuning...all light gauge strings (only the .024 6th is wound) to keep the tension on her top at a minimum (besides giving me a great permanent use for her).

Tone2TheBone
March 11th, 2008, 02:43 PM
Alright guys...do you think this hygrometer is a good one?

http://careysmokeshop.stores.yahoo.net/caliberiiidigitalhygrometer.html

luvmyshiner
March 11th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Looks just fine to me Tone.

Tone2TheBone
March 11th, 2008, 02:52 PM
One more Shiner...

http://oasishumidifiers.com/hygrometer.html

This one has the min/max button. I don't know a fuggin' thing about these things please excuse my ignorance! 5 dollar price difference. I suppose either would do? I did get one of those Planet Waves humidifiers though.

luvmyshiner
March 11th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Either one looks great Tone. I'd probably save the five bucks and spend it on beer though.:beer:

Tone2TheBone
March 11th, 2008, 04:06 PM
Either one looks great Tone. I'd probably save the five bucks and spend it on beer though.:beer:

Mmm you got a good point there. That'll buy me a Shiner or 2! :beer:

Cal
March 11th, 2008, 05:32 PM
Mmm you got a good point there. That'll buy me a Shiner or 2! :beer:What Shiner said. I've been bitten twice by the "this is especially for your guitar so we're charging you twice the normal price for it" scenario. When I get my next guitar (GAS :D ) I'll definitely be getting an "inexpensive" digital hygrometer. ;)

Tone2TheBone
March 11th, 2008, 10:39 PM
What Shiner said. I've been bitten twice by the "this is especially for your guitar so we're charging you twice the normal price for it" scenario. When I get my next guitar (GAS :D ) I'll definitely be getting an "inexpensive" digital hygrometer. ;)

I really appreciate you and Shiner's responses and all the great tips and instruction Dreadman has provided. This IS a great thread and cries for a sticky.

sunvalleylaw
March 11th, 2008, 11:01 PM
Yeah, this has been great. Let's sticky this, and keep the discussion going. Once my guitar is fully hydrated again, there are bound to be some more questions. Wingsdad, that humidified closet, along with the info on how you treat your more sensitive guitars, is awesome. Thanks! And to Dread and the rest of you.

wingsdad
March 12th, 2008, 07:54 AM
You're very welcome, Steve :)

I had to learn the hard way with my Guild what our 'high desert' atmosphere can do to an acoustic if you don't pay attention. It's frighening to hear the braces fall off a guitar's top as you're playing it. Especially one you cherish. I don't wish that experience on anyone.

Tone2TheBone
March 12th, 2008, 09:27 AM
Stupid question here. When you've got a cool mist humidifier running in a room...do you leave the guitars out of the case or in? I've read that the guitars should be in the case but in the humidifed room. This true?

luvmyshiner
March 12th, 2008, 09:34 AM
Tone, as long as the relative humidity in the room is running 40-50%, there is no reason to leave the guitar in the case. In fact, some people think that leaving a guitar in the case for too long can actually have detrimental effects. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know the more you can leave the guitar out of the case, the more you're going to play it.

Oops, sorry, had to edit post, that should be "40-50%" not "46-50%"

Tone2TheBone
March 12th, 2008, 09:44 AM
Tone, as long as the relative humidity in the room is running 46-50%, there is no reason to leave the guitar in the case. In fact, some people think that leaving a guitar in the case for too long can actually have detrimental effects. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know the more you can leave the guitar out of the case, the more you're going to play it.

Well that much is certain cause I sure play the heck out of them when they're sitting all over the livingroom sofa. :) I've been keeping the Martin in the case lately only cause I bought one of those sponge dealios for the sound hole (Planet Waves humidifier). Now I'm wondering which is better...the 40 to 50 percent humidified room or the sponge setup with guitar in case? Like I said I never gave this a thought at all until I got the Martin.

luvmyshiner
March 12th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Interesting, I don't know that one is necessarily better than the other. We'll see what other folks think.

Dreadman
March 12th, 2008, 03:04 PM
I'd say a room that's of the proper humidity would be better than a humidified case for two reasons. One, the air can get even access to the whole guitar and two, there'll be no difference at all in atmosphere between where the guitar is stored and where it's played (presuming you play in the same room).

Tone2TheBone
March 12th, 2008, 03:56 PM
I'd say a room that's of the proper humidity would be better than a humidified case for two reasons. One, the air can get even access to the whole guitar and two, there'll be no difference at all in atmosphere between where the guitar is stored and where it's played (presuming you play in the same room).

I usually play in 3 parts of the house...the bedroom, livingroom and diningroom. I keep my guitars in the bedroom especially now since I have to take care of the humidity factor. The bedroom being the best suited for that kind of control. Problem is that the bedroom is not a good place for me to keep the Martin out because it's used a lot and the foot traffic is high. Plus my wife wouldn't like a guitar hanging on the wall in our bedroom. Eventually I'm going to build another room just for my "stuff" and in that room I will have the best control over humidity as I will normally keep all doors closed. I'm supposed to go look at some hygrometers this afternoon to see what they have at the shop. At least that will tell me what I need to do in the bedroom and or case for now.

I bought a Dampit for my daughter's violin and with that kit came a paper "hygrometer" scale. I don't know exactly how accurate those are but at least it's something until I get a real hygrometer. Right now the paper is telling me the room is at 35% RH. That's without the cool mist humidifier running. I'll know tonight what it gets up to with it running.

sunvalleylaw
November 12th, 2009, 03:16 PM
Now that I got me a nice Martin, I am taking this humidification thing a bit more seriously. I started humidifying my old guitar with sponges in bags, in the case, as discussed above, but never did get a hygrometer. Now I have one, and I have an Oasis sound hole humidifier coming, ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018A5R5O/ref=ox_ya_oh_product ). Right now I have sponges in bags under the headstock, and in the little case under where the neck connects to the body of the guitar, and one in the soundhole. I will replace the soundhole one with the Oasis when it comes.

Here is a helpful little vid I found from a guy in Montana who lives in similar northern intermountain conditions to mine on a good way to do these:

b5P0_irwOPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5P0_irwOPI

He says a couple sponges humidifies the case to 40%, which is what he shoots for, as he would rather have constant 40 than higher values that fluctuate. I may shoot for 45% anyway, and plan to put a little room humidifier in the closet that holds the guitar cases to give that area some base line humidification. The closet doors do not seal at all, and the closet is somewhat close to the door to the outside, so until I verify with my new hygrometer I can keep that closet at the level I want, I am going to use case humidification.

I got the cheaper of the two hygrometers that Tone noted above, the Caliber III, ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CZLO5W/ref=ox_ya_oh_product ) which you can get cheap from Amazon, and they get good reviews from the guys over at the acoustic forum. Those guys also say that if you put a sound hole humidifier in and some sponges up by the headstock, and keep them moistened, the humidity evens out throughout the case based on their placing hygrometers in various places, so it should do the trick.

Humidity in my office right now is only 21%, and outside it is reading 39% as the weather drops into winter, so it is a necessary thing.

Thought I would share what I was coming up with.

Cheers!

player
November 14th, 2009, 06:59 PM
actually had a Dampit when I had an antique Ovation Balladeer.lost them both and a lot of other things to hurricane(s) down south But I'd rather be back there than here in tornado alley,at least you can prepare for canes - not so with a twister.other perks down there too.been looking for a decent acoustic since

tot_Ou_tard
January 2nd, 2010, 09:05 PM
Sorry I'm late to the party. I get lost in here sometimes. :D

Everyone's got good advice so I don't know how much more I can add. SVL's guitar is definitely seeing the effects of low humidity. Here's a quick list of low humidity related problems:

1.) Sunken top - A "flat top" guitar isn't actually flat. The top and back are radius-ed, meaning that they are like guitar shaped sections cut out of a big ball. When humidity gets low wood shrinks, primarily in the cross-grain direction. That means the width of a guitars top tries to get smaller. First it flattens out (loses it's dome shape), then the area between the soundhole and bridge dips down

2.) Cracks - If left dry long enough the top cracks along the grain. This is because the sides are holding the edges of the top while it shrinks so it gives somewhere in the middle, like a paper towel being pulled apart by the edges.

3.) Humped neck - When overly dry the fretboard (and to some extent, the neck) wood shrinks too. The hump where the fretboard meets the body isn't actually high, it's the rest of the fretboard/neck that has gotten low. The area in question stays high because the heel is under it and that makes more wood that would have to dry out before deforming.

4.) Neck warps, twists, bows, etc.... - Wood is a dynamic material and no two pieces are alike. When over dried (or, to a lesser extent over humidified) it can do all kinds of unexpected things. If the grain curves ever so slightly then drying it out could cause exaggeration of that curve. These issues aren't especially common in comparison to the three above so I won't go on and on.


The cure for all of this (if the instrument hasn't developed a permanent defect) is simply - add moisture (as noted in previous posts). This can be done by either adding humidity to the room that the guitar lives in or adding humidity to it in it's case (room humidifier vs. case humidifier). The trick is to be patient and add moisture slowly. Several weeks is typical so don't be discouraged after a week.


Taylor guitars are built with especially thin tops (lending to their signature sound) and that's why they must be cared for especially well. A lot of people bash Taylors for this reason but it's not fair. Thin tops are a way of pushing the envelope and, just like with cars, if you're going to go high performance there are extra precautions. Speaking of Taylor, here's Bob Taylor himself explaining about humidity in guitars - http://www.taylorguitars.com/see-hear/ Watch the video called "Humidity: The Symptoms". If you look around there there is also a video called "Understanding Humidity" - both are must see material.

SVL - if re-humidification doesn't fix your hump you'll have to consider having the frets (at least the few at the neck/body) leveled and crowned. It's not too expensive, as long as the rest of the frets are in reasonable condition a luthier or tech can probably lower the offending frets for less than $50.

I didn't hear any open string buzzing in your (very pleasing) recording but if you say it's there I believe you. Do this check - Hold down the low E string at the 3rd fret and look how close the string comes to the top of the second fret. You should be able to just slide a piece of paper between them (about .005"). If it's too close to see tap on the string above the second fret wire and listen for a "clinking" sound. If you hear it there's clearance and your nut slot is fine. Repeat this on all six strings. If your nut slots are indeed low (strings touching the second fret during this test) let us know and we'll hook ya up with some DIY nut raising info.

I may add more later after I re-read this and see what I forgot. LOL
Wow, Thanks Dreadman!

You should come back to The Fret.