Pedal boards, true bypass, buffers, and order of pedals

[Robert]

There's a good article in the April issue of Guitar Player.

The article is available online too - http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/chairmen-boards/apr-08/35211

Good read for anyone wondering about true bypass, buffers, order of pedals, powering pedals, etc.

The thing I missed was talk about what makes a good pedal board, and examples of some. There is a list of pedal board makers, but there's no reviews of these pedal boards. Anyway, I learned a few things from the article.

I use the same cables as Bob Bradshaw mentions, by the way! Mogami 2524.

[Tone2TheBone]

Really good article thanks for posting this Robby. (goes back to reading it)

Ok I'm back from reading. Good stuff there. I'm going to pick a fight with some of you though. Why do some of you insist on putting your Fuzz pedals in front of everything else when they clearly work best after pedals like a wah pedal? They still clean up when you turn down the guitar volume knob. They sound creamier with more sustain and distortion which is NOT HARSH. What's the matter with you guys? Jimi figured that out, I figured that out, why can't you? Huh?! :D ;)

[duhvoodooman]

I'm going to pick a fight with some of you though. Why do some of you insist on putting your Fuzz pedals in front of everything else when they clearly work best after pedals like a wah pedal? They still clean up when you turn down the guitar volume knob. They sound creamier with more sustain and distortion which is NOT HARSH. What's the matter with you guys? Jimi figured that out, I figured that out, why can't you? Huh?!
I think it's probably impossible to make accurate generalizations about effects order, because:


almost everybody's signal chain is different, between guitar, effects, amps and all the other stuff that can factor in, and
the perception of what sounds best is so totally subjective.

But not to miss an opportunity to argue with you ;), here's a quote from that article (bold/italics mine):


Jimi Hendrix, “Bold As Love” Buffers and Vintage Transistor Fuzz

The creamy lead and punchy rhythm sounds that Hendrix created with his Fuzz Face are some of the most sought-after tones ever recorded. For tracks such as “Bold as Love,” he achieved this by riding the guitar’s volume control with the Fuzz Face on the whole time. The problems start when you try to incorporate modern buffered pedals into this classic Fuzz Face to Marshall stack setup. The trick is to place your transistor fuzz as close to your guitar’s passive output in the chain as possible. Non-true bypass pedals that “load down” the pickups like a wah and Octavia are actually fine because they add no active circuitry when bypassed. Check out the differences when you have a pedal with a buffered bypass in front, and then after the fuzz. Without the buffer in front, your fuzz should go from raging lead when your guitar’s volume knob is on 10, to bright and clean when you back it off.
So whaddya say to that, hotshot? Huh? Huh? :D

[Rabies]

Good read, indeed.

Yep...that rhymed. :bravo:

[Rabies]

I think it's probably impossible to make accurate generalizations about effects order, because:


the perception of what sounds best is so totally subjective.



Which is why I don't know if I buy into the whole 'true bypass' idea very much. There's a lot of hub-bub about it these days.

Somewhere in the article it mentions how our heroes would run up to like 54 feet of cable between guitar, a few 'tone-sucking' pedals (by today's standards) and amp. I'm sure that cable wasn't up to todays obsessive compulsive par, either. And yet we all try to imitate these very tones...by making our signal chain as tonally 'pure' as possible.

Good tone is subjective. I know it's part of the gig, but guitarists today...we all read a little too much into everything.

Still a good read, though. :AOK:

[sunvalleylaw]

I really liked the article too, as I am still experimenting with my first "Board", which is really an old laptop case with a wah and looper that spill out onto the floor. I was interested in the switching techniques contained in a little sub article. I also missed any reference to noise suppressors and loops like my NS-2. I am going to re-read and make some adjustments. I did move my fuzz from the end of the overdrive/distortion chain that is within my NS-2 loop to the front, but when I hook up my wah, it would still be toward the guitar from that, next time I hook it up.

[Robert]

Some questions I have are, what happens when you have more than 1 buffered pedal mixed up with true bypass pedals? And how do you know if the old cheapo pedals you have do have a buffer or not? And if the buffer is a good one or not? Etc... these things make me think in circles.
Time for a :beer: ?

[sunvalleylaw]

Yeah, I do not know those things either. I know I have some noise, esp. when I turn on the DS-1, and/or the Little Big Muff. That is minimized by the NS-2. But I don't really know which of my pedals are buffered, true bypass, etc.

[Spudman]

Just run your Boss pedals late in the chain and don't worry about it. Everything before it will then get the buffer and you are good to go.

[sunvalleylaw]

Well, I generally go Guitar>wah(if I have it in the chain) > noise suppression loop input on NS-2 >now the little big muff, it used to be later > Boss DS-1 > Bad Monkey > Powerboost > return on NS-2 loop > chorus > tuner > amph

I could put the Boss chorus after the tuner and get a buffer last in the chain if you are telling me all Boss pedals have buffer. I will try that. The Boss NS-2 also has a buffer and is a noise suppressor, and it is after all the overdrive/distorion/boost stuff, so I guess I have it right.

[Rabies]

Guys, guys...take it easy. :AOK: Everybody is fretting (no pun intended) on where to place what pedals, and whether or not...:thwap:

Just try a few things. If it sounds good, go with it...if not, try the following quote, and just go with it.


Just run your Boss pedals late in the chain and don't worry about it. Everything before it will then get the buffer and you are good to go.

We guitarists worry about the silliest things. :rotflmao:

[markb]

I think it's probably impossible to make accurate generalizations about effects order, because:


almost everybody's signal chain is different, between guitar, effects, amps and all the other stuff that can factor in, and
the perception of what sounds best is so totally subjective.

But not to miss an opportunity to argue with you ;), here's a quote from that article (bold/italics mine):


Jimi Hendrix, “Bold As Love” Buffers and Vintage Transistor Fuzz

The creamy lead and punchy rhythm sounds that Hendrix created with his Fuzz Face are some of the most sought-after tones ever recorded. For tracks such as “Bold as Love,” he achieved this by riding the guitar’s volume control with the Fuzz Face on the whole time. The problems start when you try to incorporate modern buffered pedals into this classic Fuzz Face to Marshall stack setup. The trick is to place your transistor fuzz as close to your guitar’s passive output in the chain as possible. Non-true bypass pedals that “load down” the pickups like a wah and Octavia are actually fine because they add no active circuitry when bypassed. Check out the differences when you have a pedal with a buffered bypass in front, and then after the fuzz. Without the buffer in front, your fuzz should go from raging lead when your guitar’s volume knob is on 10, to bright and clean when you back it off.
So whaddya say to that, hotshot? Huh? Huh? :D

Yep, fuzz first if you want a Fuzz Face or similar to work properly. Also if you put a wah before the fuzz you'll get almost no wah effect unless you put a buffered pedal in front of both. Confusing, innit ? ;)

I've always gone with wah (if using one)>OD>distortion>modulation>delays. Tuners just confuse the issue so I put mine either at the end of the chain (highly recommended if you use a Boss TU2) or at least after the drives.

You'll need one of these (http://www.loop-master.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=132) if you're worried about the effect of buffers.

[sunvalleylaw]

By your answer, if one was using a wah and a fuzz, it would be fuzz first for you? Your line up did not include the fuzz, but maybe that is because you don't use one? Otherwise I have followed your pattern for wah - od - etc. based on what I have learned here.

[markb]

By your answer, if one was using a wah and a fuzz, it would be fuzz first for you? Your line up did not include the fuzz, but maybe that is because you don't use one? Otherwise I have followed your pattern for wah - od - etc. based on what I have learned here.

Yes, I'd run an old school (i.e. transistor) fuzz before wah but I don't have a fuzz or a wah at present, I use my Rat to get fuzz like tones. The modern type fuzzes like the Boss or Ibanez can probably be treated more like any other distortion effect as they're buffered and IC based.

[duhvoodooman]

I take a very pragmatic approach to the whole unbuffered/buffered/true bypass question--if it sounds good, I don't worry about it. I use this approach with both individual pedals and with my pedal chain as a whole.

For individual pedals, I'll generally start off by placing them in my chain according to the "conventional wisdom" and see how I like them there and in conjunction with other pedals I may combine them with. If I don't like what I hear, I start moving them around. Since my chain has three main sections--from the guitar to the Boss NS-2 Noise Suppressor pedal input, the NS-2 noise reduction loop itself, and from the NS-2 output to the amp--I'll try the pedal in each section, as necessary. But it's usually not necessary. About the only pedals I've found that need to be in a certain location to sound good to me are the fuzzes--my Fuzz Face and Octavia clones. They sound way better to me in front of anything with a high-impedance buffer. I only run one of them at a time, and I put it immediately after the guitar.

For the overall pedal chain, I'll check the tone all the way through the chain with all the pedals off, and then disconnect the guitar at the start of the chain and plug it directly into the amp. If the tone isn't noticeably different, then I figure I'm good to go--no significant "tone-sucking" going on. I have a mixture of true-bypass and buffered pedals, and they seem to play really nice together; I've never run a pedal sequence that suffered from any significant degree of treble loss. And I have 16 of 'em in my chain at the moment!

[Tone2TheBone]

I think it's probably impossible to make accurate generalizations about effects order, because:


almost everybody's signal chain is different, between guitar, effects, amps and all the other stuff that can factor in, and
the perception of what sounds best is so totally subjective.

But not to miss an opportunity to argue with you ;), here's a quote from that article (bold/italics mine):


Jimi Hendrix, “Bold As Love” Buffers and Vintage Transistor Fuzz

The creamy lead and punchy rhythm sounds that Hendrix created with his Fuzz Face are some of the most sought-after tones ever recorded. For tracks such as “Bold as Love,” he achieved this by riding the guitar’s volume control with the Fuzz Face on the whole time. The problems start when you try to incorporate modern buffered pedals into this classic Fuzz Face to Marshall stack setup. The trick is to place your transistor fuzz as close to your guitar’s passive output in the chain as possible. Non-true bypass pedals that “load down” the pickups like a wah and Octavia are actually fine because they add no active circuitry when bypassed. Check out the differences when you have a pedal with a buffered bypass in front, and then after the fuzz. Without the buffer in front, your fuzz should go from raging lead when your guitar’s volume knob is on 10, to bright and clean when you back it off.
So whaddya say to that, hotshot? Huh? Huh? :D

Yeah I just read that paragraph off that website before you posted your reply earlier this afternoon and before I left work for the day and I still don't agree with it. For one thing as you know the Fuzz Face circuit is just plain weird. It's simple and wierd the way it works. All I know is that Jimi put the Vox wah IN FRONT of the fuzz face then he put the Uni-vibe after the Fuzz Face and you know that's how I like to put my pedals and you did read that snippet I sent you in email a while back about Mike Bloomfield stating that Jimi himself told him that the reason he placed his pedals that way was because the Fuzz Face reacted so dramatically behind the wah (with a buffer in front of it unbeknownst to him of course) that he dug the over the top distortion it yielded. Put a wah in front of a Fuzz Face and it's gonna go over the top...period...and that's the sound Jimi wanted and that's the sound I want. I don't care what arm chair guitarists say about having to put the FF in front because it doesn't jive with the groove.....dig?

;)

Btw I knew you'd bite.

Peace love and all that other bs.....:beer:

ps - fwiw Mike Bloomfield also stated that Jimi told him that he preferred the Cry Baby over the Vox because it's frequency range was greater.

[sunvalleylaw]

Some good, practical ideas here for playing around. Thanks DVM for the approach, and the others for thoughts on what to experiment with to see what I like best.

[duhvoodooman]

FWIW (not much, for most of you! ;) ), here's a diagram of my current pedal chain. Ignore the fact that the inputs & outputs are on the wrong side of the pedals in the top row! Just follow the arrows. Anyway, this setup seems to work for me; YMMV. I guess the only thing that's a little unusual is that I sprinkle my various OD/distro pedals throughout the chain so that I can get different sounds, e.g. before and after the wah, before and after the phaser, outside the NS-2 loop completely (my Radial Tone Bone, which is very quiet), etc.


http://www.thefret.net/imagehosting/74481f07bd884f6.gif

[Robert]

Holy Spaghetti!
You are using 12 pedals together? Or 16? And here I thought I was a pedal freak... :whatever:

So how do you power all those things? I use a 1-Spot adapter myself, but I stick to 7 pedals only.

[Tone2TheBone]

That looks pretty good Voo cept you got the fuzz in the wrong place. LMAO ;)

[Spudman]

Hey, there is no harmonizer pedal.:confused: :D

[tot_Ou_tard]

http://www.thefret.net/imagehosting/74481f07bd884f6.gif
:rotflmao::DWhat is it exactly that you don't like about the sound of a guitar?:D :rotflmao:

[duhvoodooman]

Holy Spaghetti!
You are using 12 pedals together? Or 16? And here I thought I was a pedal freak...

So how do you power all those things? I use a 1-Spot adapter myself, but I stick to 7 pedals only.
Well, not that there's any real justification for my aberrant pedal behavior, but keep in mind that I don't move my pedals. I don't even have 'em on a board (Or two. Or three....), just sitting on a rug in front of my amps. So they've kind of, er, mushroomed over time. I power them with a 1-spot and another similar wall wart, with those multi-plug daisy-chains. Since I never use more than maybe 4 pedals at one time max., power has never been an issue. And I have one additional dedicated adapter for the Fuzz Farm, because it's a positive ground pedal.

Now you see why I have such an aversion to 9V batteries! :eek:


That looks pretty good Voo cept you got the fuzz in the wrong place.
You're incorrigible!! :nono: ;)


Hey, there is no harmonizer pedal.
It's that "Talent Boost" pedal that I really need, Spuds. Especially after listening to your handiwork this weekend! :master:


What is it exactly that you don't like about the sound of a guitar?
Quite the contrary! I like the sound of about a thousand different guitars. And I want to be able to emulate 'em all! :rockon:

[sunvalleylaw]

DVM, I have not nearly all the pedals you do, but set up my NS-2 loop similarly last week. I did leave my (your former) Crybaby Wah out of the NS-2 loop, and have it and my (Tone's former) Little Big Muff Pi Fuzz toward the guitar from that loop. After the NS-2 loop, I have my chorus and tuner. So far, I like that arrangement. I may swap the Fuzz and the wah just for fun and to see if I can hear what Tone is talking about. So 8 of my pedals are often in my chain if I hook up the wah. I often leave the wah off the chain, and sometimes pull the tuner out too. I add in the looper when I am using it. At this point, I rarely use the Korg, but I should. I would likely use that after the NS-2 I think, as I would use it mostly as a delay, variable with the foot pedal.

[sunvalleylaw]

Really good article thanks for posting this Robby. (goes back to reading it)

Ok I'm back from reading. Good stuff there. I'm going to pick a fight with some of you though. Why do some of you insist on putting your Fuzz pedals in front of everything else when they clearly work best after pedals like a wah pedal? They still clean up when you turn down the guitar volume knob. They sound creamier with more sustain and distortion which is NOT HARSH. What's the matter with you guys? Jimi figured that out, I figured that out, why can't you? Huh?! :D ;)

Ok, I am going to try your way just because. Now, do you put your Fuzz inside your NS-2 loop or outside when it is downstream from your wah? What if it was your old fuzz pedal that I now own, does it change your answer? :D

[Robert]

I put my fuzz pedal first in my chain now, and it does indeed sound a lot "awesomer" now. I should record a new clip for you guys so you can hear this "awesomeness".

[markb]

That's a serious habit you've got there, DVM. As long as you don't have to turn to crime to get the batteries :D

I used to have a pedal collection like that but most of it lived in a drawer in the spare bedroom with "pedals de jour" out and plugged in. The last board I built was almost too heavy to lift :thwap:

[tot_Ou_tard]

Quite the contrary! I like the sound of about a thousand different guitars. And I want to be able to emulate 'em all! :rockon:
Yeah I know, it just looks like the schematics for a guitar-signal torture chamber ;).

[Tone2TheBone]

All my pedals are being switched around between both my amps right now so I guess you could say I'm not using "my pedal board". They're all on the floor and I'm not using all of them. I use some on the Marshall and some on the Blues Jr. I kinda actually prefer it that way. I guess I'm still old school. No more dusty and heavy pedal board to move around.