Fender Stratocaster

[thearabianmage]

Okay, I know this is sacrilege to most people, but the question begs to be asked: why are Strats so damn expensive? I just had a look at about 45 or 50 of them at this website, and they are all the same!!!

Alder body, maple neck, vintage pups, vintage bridge. . . These, imo are arguably the most important aspects to look at in a guitar that you are going to buy. Body wood/neck wood/pickups/hardware

Yet the price for these exact specs ranges from £289 to around £1200 - and the ones that Fender have destroyed they sell for £2200!!!!!

WHY!?!?

WHY do they add nearly ONE THOUSAND GBP because they have used a rusty bridge, scratched pickups, and have paid some loser to bang it up a bit?!?!? Maybe it's testament to the loser who pays that extra amount of money to have this shyt done to their guitar

Also, they vary prices of guitars depending on who's endorsing them. A Buddy Holly guitar goes for almost £500, but a SRV goes for over £1000 and a Clapton goes for just under £1000. The price of the Malmsteen is almost justified by the scalloping, but I'm sure you can get a standard Strat, scallop it, and still spend less than they ask for a Malmsteen.

I'm not into Fender Strats (too bulky, not enough frets (I have small hands and 24 fret necks feel much better to me than 21/22 fret necks) no FR tremolo, and not enough balls) but I really want a virgin white Strat (because they do look sexy as hell) but damn - this is ridiculous!!

Can anyone shed any light or this just a case of capitalization?

Oh, and if Blooz is reading this, I still think your Koa is very sweet!

[marnold]

Good question. I think the whole professional relicing thing is nuts, but what do I know. Basically Fender charges the prices they do because they can. That's not to say that they don't make some fine instruments. They do. But you get to a point where you say, "This is dumb." I took my Floyd to a guitar shop and A/B'd against a number of Fenders, including a Clapton one and an American Standard. I would have taken my Floyd every time. I only wish it had 24 frets. Not that I use the 23rd and 24th that often, but it makes access to the 20th-22nd easier I find.

[thearabianmage]

Good question. I think the whole professional relicing thing is nuts, but what do I know. Basically Fender charges the prices they do because they can. That's not to say that they don't make some fine instruments. They do. But you get to a point where you say, "This is dumb." I took my Floyd to a guitar shop and A/B'd against a number of Fenders, including a Clapton one and an American Standard. I would have taken my Floyd every time. I only wish it had 24 frets. Not that I use the 23rd and 24th that often, but it makes access to the 20th-22nd easier I find.

When you say 'you took your Floyd' do you mean one of those sweet Floyd Rose speedloader guitars? My guitar teacher at Bridgwater (only 1 'e') had one of those. They are pretty sick'n'slick. But yeah, 'antiquating' or whatever it is they call it. . . Brilliant business tactics I guess, because they get to bang up a guitar and charge more for it. I guess you are absolutely right: they charge so much because they can. But I still want to buy a Standard Strat in plain white. Can anyone recommend a Standard Strat (they are the 'cheapest') or is there another Strat that is better (but not £500 more expensive for a pickup that is over-wound)

[WackyT]

Prices on consumables is generally determined by the market. If people are willing to spend buku bucks, or pounds, on "professionally" beat up guitars, then why not set the price that high? I personally do not see the attraction of paying 10 times the price for a guitar with 1/10th the attractiveness, but obviously somebody does.

[thearabianmage]

Prices on consumables is generally determined by the market. If people are willing to spend buku bucks, or pounds, on "professionally" beat up guitars, then why not set the price that high? I personally do not see the attraction of paying 10 times the price for a guitar with 1/10th the attractiveness, but obviously somebody does.

Blatantly just a bunch of business men who buy them guitars. Anyone else could beat it up themselves. . .

[markb]

Mexican Standards can be good guitars. If you prefer a more "vintage" presentation the Classic series are pretty good too. A used American Standard or Series can be had at a reasonable price in the UK. I paid somewhere around £500 for mine when they about £700 new, you get a case with US guitars. I don't get the relic thing either, I'd rather do it myself over time.

As for businessmen I thought they all played PRSi through Boogies ;)

[Tone E]

To be fair the relics cost more to produce because theyre hand rafted by master builders not the run of the mill guys.

Also the custom shop reproductions do not have to be beat up relics. They can be bought as relics (beat up, resembling a played/gigged vintage), closet classics (less beat up, resembling what an actual vintage would look like had it been stored) or N.O.S which is the same but using all new looking parts as though they had discovered original vintage stuff hiding in the warehouse.

They are more expensive not becase theyre better guitars, theyre not, but becuase there is something more to them than just an instrument to be played. They cost more becuase they represent more... and becuase they cost more to make.

Like with most products I have found that spending double does not get you double the value. You spend 100% more and get maybe 10% extra, the more you spend the larger this discrepancy becomes.


American standard stuff is great, play it, I imagine you will love it.

Alternatively if you are not a snob check out the squier range, particularly the squier deluxe stuff which is supposed to very good indeed. I have heard that some of the squier deluxe strats can be as good as the mexican fenders.

[marnold]

When you say 'you took your Floyd' do you mean one of those sweet Floyd Rose speedloader guitars? My guitar teacher at Bridgwater (only 1 'e') had one of those. They are pretty sick'n'slick.
Yep, listed in my sig below. It's a DST-3. Here's my review of it (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=3995) and here are some pictures (http://picasaweb.google.com/semprini/FloydRoseDST3?authkey=aw9cNzY2uF4). The single coils are now black, having been replaced by Dimarzio Area 61s. I got the guitar on closeout for $149, so even with replacing all three pickups and a bit of rewiring, it's still cheaper than a MIM Strat.

[thearabianmage]

Yep, listed in my sig below. It's a DST-3. Here's my review of it (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=3995) and here are some pictures (http://picasaweb.google.com/semprini/FloydRoseDST3?authkey=aw9cNzY2uF4). The single coils are now black, having been replaced by Dimarzio Area 61s. I got the guitar on closeout for $149, so even with replacing all three pickups and a bit of rewiring, it's still cheaper than a MIM Strat.

Dude, that is almost exactly like Jule's FR!!! Except his, I remember him saying, cost a helluva lot more (went to the US to get it). . .it looks a bit more like this one here:

http://shredguitars.com/collections/data/512/medium/body2.JPG

$149? Fair play! These are really nice guitars - as you've mentioned in your review. Definitely one I have to keep an eye out for - even though they don't sell them in the UK (I don't think so, at least.)

[Tone2TheBone]

You wanna play you gotta pay. Get a Squier Strat they're cheap.

[Brian Krashpad]

A couple points. First, in Blighty you're going to pay a premium for US guitars. Part of it is simply that US guitars are more expensive (they are in the States too), and part is the cost of importing/taxes/etc.

Cost is a relative thing. If you want a good price on a US guitar, buy in the US, buy used, and don't pay extra for relic'ing or any other feature you don't want. Compared to Gibson prices, Fenders are pretty darn affordable.

But if you want to boycott Fender, finding a non-Fender Strat is very easy. Probably the most copied guitar on the planet. With MIM Fenders and all the copies out there, there's no reason to complain that Strats are expensive. Even sticking with Fender-only, you yourself stated that they range "from £289 to around £1200 ."

So buy the one for 289.

I'm missing what the problem is here.

[thearabianmage]

You wanna play you gotta pay. Get a Squier Strat they're cheap.

It's not just the fact that they are expensive - just the lack of justification for their price (apart from putting a decal on the headstock with the initials of a dead man - or carving his initials into the scratchplate. . .)

It's got to be said - as far as electric guitars are concerned, the Stratocaster is the perfect shape. Fender have solidified their place in guitar history - it's rock solid. But they don't want to stop there. The people who run Fender nowadays, most of which have no affiliation with the Leo Fender or anybody else who started the company, have kids to send to college - and they plan on doing that by capitalizing on the name, talent, and death of great players like Stevie Ray Vaughn.

It's a shame, really.

[thearabianmage]

I'm missing what the problem is here.

I probably will buy the £289 one.

But the problem is that the £289 guitar - specs wise - is no different from most of the £1000+ models. Why are they doing that? The off-chance that someone will overlook all of the details and just go straight for the Eric Clapton model? I guess there's always the chance.

They are doing that because, like most companies nowadays, they just want a cheaper and easier way to make a buck. We all got to eat, don't we? But most of us achieve this in slightly less deceiving ways. And I won't even touch Gibson as far as price - they are just ridiculous; you are very right there.

As far as import costs are concerned, I find that's irrelevant, because by the time they get here, the prices have been re-adjusted and are still just as much of a piss-take.

Some are made in America, yes, and they will cost more, I understand that - but most of them are not made in America. Most of them are not hand-made. And most of them are the same - except for their price tags which will vary from £289-to £K's. My problem is that I think this is shameful.

[thearabianmage]

Especially for one of the leading guitar manufacturers in the world. Don't get me wrong, my Jackson was made after the acquisition of Jackson by Fender, and it is a lovely guitar. But that doesn't justify anything.

There are a myriad of copies - but I expect better from a company as reputed as Fender, honestly.

[thearabianmage]

I will still buy that Standard Strat in plain white, though :D

[Ger the man]

In my book it all depends how you view a guitar, if you want good stuff your going to pay for it. Rest assured - It will hold its value over time, I started out with a Highway 1 strat and will never sell it because of the amount of dings it has now - but its mine and it sounds nice. I then bought a us deluxe tele and there is simply no comparison as regards finish, tone and overall quality. People think im crazy and wonder why i didnt get a tele copy for 200/300 euro but then again they have no problem spending a fortune on plasma tv's or cigarettes.

[Brian Krashpad]

Some are made in America, yes, and they will cost more, I understand that - but most of them are not made in America. Most of them are not hand-made. And most of them are the same - except for their price tags which will vary from £289-to £K's. My problem is that I think this is shameful.

Welcome to capitalism lad.

Honestly, I'm not seeing the shameful bit here. Anyone can go to Fender's website(s) and compare specs on the various models. It's not like they're deceiving anyone about any facts material to making an informed choice about purchasing their products. Prices are set on what the market will bear.

With the freedom of a free market system comes a responsibility on purchasers' parts to become educated shoppers, and it would appear you've done that.

Caveat emptor, baby.

[just strum]

Look on the bright side, at least they are not Gibson Strats. I love Gibson guitars, but IMO they are one the the more over priced guitars. They have great guitars and sound, but pricing is out of line.

[Tone2TheBone]

It's not just the fact that they are expensive - just the lack of justification for their price (apart from putting a decal on the headstock with the initials of a dead man - or carving his initials into the scratchplate. . .)

It's got to be said - as far as electric guitars are concerned, the Stratocaster is the perfect shape. Fender have solidified their place in guitar history - it's rock solid. But they don't want to stop there. The people who run Fender nowadays, most of which have no affiliation with the Leo Fender or anybody else who started the company, have kids to send to college - and they plan on doing that by capitalizing on the name, talent, and death of great players like Stevie Ray Vaughn.

It's a shame, really.


Huh?

So you're saying the price of a Stratocaster isn't justified? Hey they're Stratocasters! Guess who wants to play them? Everyone! Why can't you afford a $300 guitar? I don't get your boggle dude.

[Brian Krashpad]

Look on the bright side, at least they are not Gibson Strats. I love Gibson guitars, but IMO they are one the the more over priced guitars. They have great guitars and sound, but pricing is out of line.

Which is why I buy used, both Gibsons and otherwise, much more often than not. I did buy one new Gibby a number of years ago, a P-100 LP Special (with the irrational model name "Les Paul Junior Special") on closeout for $500. My other 2 are both used, a Les Paul Studio DC ($525 w/hsc), and a Les Paul Classic ($750 w/ohsc).

[marnold]

Dude, that is almost exactly like Jule's FR!!! Except his, I remember him saying, cost a helluva lot more (went to the US to get it). . .it looks a bit more like this one here:

http://shredguitars.com/collections/data/512/medium/body2.JPG

$149? Fair play! These are really nice guitars - as you've mentioned in your review. Definitely one I have to keep an eye out for - even though they don't sell them in the UK (I don't think so, at least.)
They stopped making them. Nobody was buying them. Musician's Friend was blowing them out for quite some time. I don't get it--other than the fact that people hated the headstock. I really wanted to get one with the "fly" pick guard like the one you pictured, but I couldn't get one. I could have gotten a second-hand DST-2 (two humbuckers) in black with that pickguard, but he wanted >$100 more than my DST-3 was new. They pop up on eBay every so often, if you can get someone who will ship it to the UK.

The only place the name "Fender" really matters is if you are trying to get a session gig. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of Strat clones out there.

Lest I get accused of hypocrisy, yes, I have a Fender as well, although it's about as non-traditional as you can get: one humbucker, fixed bridge, 24 frets, flat fretboard, thin neck, set neck. That one is one of their Korean models. It originally retailed for $899 but I got it for $249 IIRC.

[hubberjub]

It's hard for me to believe that American guitars are more expensive to buy in Europe considering the dollar is worth practically nothing compared to the pound. The Euro has also been far more stable than the dollar recently.

[SuperSwede]

It's hard for me to believe that American guitars are more expensive to buy in Europe considering the dollar is worth practically nothing compared to the pound. The Euro has also been far more stable than the dollar recently.

Thats a perfectly justified question.

The price of the dollar has been going down a lot, and yet the prices of US made instruments are the same or even higher.

[Danzego]

Ya know, if you don't like the relics, don't buy them. Yes, they're silly and half the time, they probably aren't set up the same way the original artist had it. But they exist because there's a market for them. Can you honestly BLAME Fender for that? For making something that a small portion of guitar buyers demand (and making money on it)?

If all of their guitars were of that nature, I could see that. But they're not. In fact, dollar for dollar and feature for feature (and heck, may as well throw feel and playability in there, too) Fenders are actually VERY reasonably priced guitars compared to the other major brands out there. Calling them out as a whole- as a company and the overall quality of their entire line of guitars- just because of a problem with their business model regarding their specialty guitars alone is just kind of.....I don't know. :confused:

Mind you, I'm a player of 20 years who is a recent Fender convert; one who NEVER thought, in ALL my days, that I would own one, because I would look at Fenders and think "Psshhh". How did I change my mind? I got one in my hands and because of that, I found I had one in my head. I had no choice but to buy one. :master:


So they make 100 count runs of relics and repro's now and again. Big deal.

[thearabianmage]

Hey everybody. I knew this thread would start a bit of controversy. . . sorry about that.

I ain't got no problem with Fender - but sometimes with reading text, it's a bit difficult to know how the writer 'would be saying it.' I am not raging with Fender, but I think it's rather 'cheeky' of them. They are a business, though, after all. I worked in tourism for a couple years, and God only knows how much we had to jack the price up on things.

Krashpad was right with his 'educated buyer' point. Too true.

Rev Rawk was right with the 'session' point.

hubberjub hasn't really got a point - yes the £ is up on the dollar, but add the price of shipping a guitar overseas, plus the 20% import fee on anything over £200 in value, and you are usually looking at the same price on both sides of the pond.

Denzeg is right as well- if I don't like it, then I shouldn't buy it. And I won't. So I guess I shouldn't complain about it, then. But I would like to express an opinion - and if you don't like that opinion, you don't have to read or respond to it. (that isn't meant nastily, honest)

I'll shut up now.

[ted s]

You don't need to shut up, opinions are good.
Relics aren't my thing either, I like my stuff (not just guitars) shiny and in tip top shape.
Pre-relic'd axes are kinda like those crazy expensive jeans that are all beat to he77 when you buy them. Just like many things, people will buy'em.
Just give me a good old pair of Levis and a quality guitar, I'll wear them in on my own thanks.

[just strum]

You don't need to shut up, opinions are good.
Relics aren't my thing either, I like my stuff (not just guitars) shiny and in tip top shape.
Pre-relic'd axes are kinda like those crazy expensive jeans that are all beat to he77 when you buy them. Just like many things, people will buy'em.
Just give me a good old pair of Levis and a quality guitar, I'll wear them in on my own thanks.

+1,000

I agree 100% with Ted. The guitars that are made to look like Eric's or any other entertainer just doesn't do it for me. A guitar that appears to be older than it is because of worn spots and cigarette burns has no appeal. I'll wear mine over time and if I want to speed up the process, I'll take the sandpaper to it, without spending the extra $5,000 for the look. Until mine wears naturally, it will sparkle.

I know there's a market, but I never spoke to a person face-to-face that has an interest in them.

[tremoloman]

I've now owned America, Mexican, Indonesian, Chinese, and Japanese Fenders. IMHO, where it is made and how much it cost have absolutely no correlation on tone, sound, or playability.

My CIJ Jazzmaster I used to have ($400) plays every bit as nice as my American Reissue model ($1200) once the pickups and electronics were swapped in the CIJ. If I did it over again I would have kept the CIJ since it was worlds cheaper.

I tried a few of those new Deluxe Squiers that cost around $300... I swear to God, these guitars feel as good as my American Deluxe models. Had these come out back in 2004, I might not be playing the same instruments I have now.

Don't get me wrong... I love all my guitars but the quality level these Deluxe Strats have are unreal. I'd rather get a cheaper guitar that needs a few upgrades rather than an expensive one. I find it more fun to tweak and make the guitar "your own".

[Robert]

I've now owned America, Mexican, Indonesian, Chinese, and Japanese Fenders. IMHO, where it is made and how much it cost have absolutely no correlation on tone, sound, or playability.

Just wait until you've owned a SWEDISH Fender! Now, that's Viking Quality@ :D

[Spudman]

I tried a few of those new Deluxe Squiers that cost around $300... I swear to God, these guitars feel as good as my American Deluxe models. Had these come out back in 2004, I might not be playing the same instruments I have now.

Don't get me wrong... I love all my guitars but the quality level these Deluxe Strats have are unreal. I'd rather get a cheaper guitar that needs a few upgrades rather than an expensive one. I find it more fun to tweak and make the guitar "your own".

+1
Like Zman and I said.

[ZMAN]

You have some of the nicer relic guitars right in GB. Check out the web site of this guy. John Hornby Skewes. I have seen some of his stuff in person and they are really nice. When you compare them to Fenders. He has Wilkinson pickups and his Icon series feel and play very good.
http://www.jhs.co.uk/vintageelectric.html

My guitar tech had a custom shop relic done for almost 3000 dollars and it looks just like the white one on the end.

[Tone2TheBone]

Heck a tank of gas is less than the price of a Fender.

[thearabianmage]

Heck a tank of gas is less than the price of a Fender.

Move to England, you'll be 'pleasantly' surprised! :D

[just strum]

Which is why I buy used, both Gibsons and otherwise, much more often than not. I did buy one new Gibby a number of years ago, a P-100 LP Special (with the irrational model name "Les Paul Junior Special") on closeout for $500. My other 2 are both used, a Les Paul Studio DC ($525 w/hsc), and a Les Paul Classic ($750 w/ohsc).

You know Brian that is the way to go. If it's not used, then it has to be a good deal on a new one. All but one of my acoustics I use to own were used. My American Strat I purchased from Plank was at a good price and as I watch used guitar sales I think he gave me a better deal than I first realized (thanks Plank, still love that guitar). My Dot had very limited use and I got it for free, no better price (free is good). My ARC300 was picked up new, but at a good price and lower than I've ever seen it advertised since purchased and now that it is no longer in production, it makes the deal even sweeter, then there is the Epi SG another one that was free (company I work for paid for it).

So I've made out okay although some of it was not planned (the free ones).

[marnold]

I've never gotten anything used, mainly because the selection in this area is really bad. There's very little used stuff out there and the one store that does have a decent number of used guitars inflates the prices through the roof. For example, they were selling an SX bass for about $100 more than you could get one new from Rondo.

The ones I do have were all on major blow-out sale, though.
My Fender listed for $899 and was selling at MF for $699. I got it on closeout for $249.
My Floyd listed for $549 and was selling for $399 IIRC, about the same as a MIM Strat. I got it on closeout for $149.
My Squier '51 listed for $249. I think they were selling for ~$150. I got mine for $99 and it was a Christmas present to boot.

[thearabianmage]

I've never gotten anything used, mainly because the selection in this area is really bad. There's very little used stuff out there and the one store that does have a decent number of used guitars inflates the prices through the roof. For example, they were selling an SX bass for about $100 more than you could get one new from Rondo.

The ones I do have were all on major blow-out sale, though.
My Fender listed for $899 and was selling at MF for $699. I got it on closeout for $249.
My Floyd listed for $549 and was selling for $399 IIRC, about the same as a MIM Strat. I got it on closeout for $149.
My Squier '51 listed for $249. I think they were selling for ~$150. I got mine for $99 and it was a Christmas present to boot.

You blag! Fair play! :D :AOK:

[just strum]

You blag! Fair play! :D :AOK:

Okay, what' blag?

[thearabianmage]

HAH! Finally, someone's asked! The word 'blag' is probably one of the most useful words, because it has so many meanings.

to 'blag' something - similar to saying to 'bum' something (can I blag a fag?=can I have a cigarette?)

to 'blag' someone - to rant to someone, or 'bum' something (he gave me a fat blag - He blagged me for a fag, the cheeky bugger!)

to 'blag' on - to rant on (I'm blagging on right now)

a 'blag' is something that is easy (playing an E5 chord is a blag)

But in Marnold's case, to be a 'blag' means he got off easy or manages easily - that is a very positive thing by the way (Ricky Gervais is a blag in the comedy industry because he has probably never done a proper day's work or broke a sweat making it into the industry)

But, on the other hand, being 'a blag' can be a bad thing - Someone who is known to exaggerate things, talk a lot (me!) etc. is known as a blag.

Again, it's a very useful word!

[just strum]

Geez, I thought I could go to England and know what everyone is talking about.

[thearabianmage]

Geez, I thought I could go to England and know what everyone is talking about.

Ha! Good luck. I lived here for years before I understood anyone (but the Somerset accent doesn't help. . .)

[marnold]

You blag! Fair play! :D :AOK:
Thanks. Part of it is being fortunate. Part of it is also following various guitar-selling websites way too closely even when I don't want anything. Plus when you have very, very little discretionary income, you've got to do some smart shopping. I probably wouldn't have gotten my Floyd if someone on the Jackson-Charvel forums didn't offer to take my Model 7 off my hands for a very decent price.

I also managed to get my EX-7 brand new on evilBay for $149 when it normally goes for $199.

I've already warned my wife that if I ever see a Charvel Model-something super strat with the firecrackle finish, the credit card is coming out :)

[thearabianmage]

Thanks. Part of it is being fortunate. Part of it is also following various guitar-selling websites way too closely even when I don't want anything. Plus when you have very, very little discretionary income, you've got to do some smart shopping. I probably wouldn't have gotten my Floyd if someone on the Jackson-Charvel forums didn't offer to take my Model 7 off my hands for a very decent price.

I also managed to get my EX-7 brand new on evilBay for $149 when it normally goes for $199.

I've already warned my wife that if I ever see a Charvel Model-something super strat with the firecrackle finish, the credit card is coming out :)

Fair enough! I've got a Jackson-Charvel that I'm fixin up at the moment, but to be honest, I doubt you'd want it. Do you know much about Jackson-Charvels, because I'm not sure how much to sell this for. I've already got a kid lined up to buy it, a guitar student of mine, for £150 - but I'm thinking that may be too cheap. Not so sure - it's Charvel CX692 - know anything about them?

[Danzego]

Hey everybody. I knew this thread would start a bit of controversy. . . sorry about that.

I ain't got no problem with Fender - but sometimes with reading text, it's a bit difficult to know how the writer 'would be saying it.' I am not raging with Fender, but I think it's rather 'cheeky' of them. They are a business, though, after all. I worked in tourism for a couple years, and God only knows how much we had to jack the price up on things.

Krashpad was right with his 'educated buyer' point. Too true.

Rev Rawk was right with the 'session' point.

hubberjub hasn't really got a point - yes the £ is up on the dollar, but add the price of shipping a guitar overseas, plus the 20% import fee on anything over £200 in value, and you are usually looking at the same price on both sides of the pond.

Denzeg is right as well- if I don't like it, then I shouldn't buy it. And I won't. So I guess I shouldn't complain about it, then. But I would like to express an opinion - and if you don't like that opinion, you don't have to read or respond to it. (that isn't meant nastily, honest)

I'll shut up now.

No, no....don't get me wrong. I'm not ranting either and certainly not throwing a "if you don't like it, don't buy it" thing out there by any means. I'm simply saying that the things that you've pointed out about Fender is just a small part of their overall business. I certainly don't care for the whole whacked out price repro's (and even to some degree, signatures), either. What I'm saying is you've focused your complaint with laying into them for those things, but really...is that all Fender is really about? Not at all. :)

They have a full line of guitars from cheapies on up to the signatures- something for everyone and their budget- and, in general, their quality is actually rather good across that spectrum. THAT'S Fender, by and large. Also, go have a look at Gibson's signatures and repro's and then come back and have another look at Fender prices (except for the repro's, which are still outlandish). Custom shops and signatures from just about anyone are out of line.

I think if you just didn't put so much worth into those two aspects and put things into an overall perspective, you would find that Fender has a lot more positive going on than you're giving them credit for in your original post. :)

[thearabianmage]

They have a full line of guitars from cheapies on up to the signatures- something for everyone and their budget- and, in general, their quality is actually rather good across that spectrum. THAT'S Fender, by and large.

You hold a very good point there, my friend. :AOK: