Wiring diagram/help. . . Please? Pictures/diagram added!

[thearabianmage]

Hey everyone, I have a problem and asking everyone here is really a last resort (I've taken the many hints)

I have gone and replaced the mini-pots that came stock in my BC Rich with CTS pots, but it's just not happening. I don't know what's wrong, but nothing is working.

2 humbuckers (one with 2 wires, another with 4+1 bare) 2 volume, 1 tone, 3-way LP style toggle.

I've looked at this diagram:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2h_2v_1t_3w

And this one:
http://www.guitarnucleus.com/gitschems/bcrich-nj_guitar.jpg

Still no joy. The problem started out as the bridge pickup not being very loud, so I tinkered with it and it went silent all-together. The neck was just fine. I got the bridge pup back to 'quiet' mode, but for some reason I tried re-wiring the whole things again. Now both are quiet and the tone doesn't seem to work (it did before).

So far I've spent around 10 hours trying to do this simple mini-to-CTS pot switch and I am ripping my hair out. I can't find any useful forums/pages/tutorials/etc. on the internet (apart from the aforementioned diagrams) and I really am stuck.

I know I'm not a popular member on this forum, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[ted s]

Tough to say in a forum setting. I assume you have the 2 wires in the multi-tap bucker tied together ?
Perhaps the color coding of the pups you're using don't match Seymore's pics.
Is there any way you can get some actual pics. posted ?
What make are the pups ?

[warren0728]

Is there any way you can get some actual pics. posted ?
What make are the pups ?
good idea ted....mage i bet if you could take a picture of your wiring and post it one of our "modders" could spot the problem...i wish i could help but i have no experience at all modding, wiring, soldering or any of that stuff!

ww

[thearabianmage]

Yeah sorry, I know it was a bit vague - it was like 4:30 AM and I had been working on it for around 5 hours straight.

Here's a picture, and I'll explain it a bit:

In order from top to bottom, the first pot is the neck volume, the second is the bridge volume, the last is obviously the tone. In the neck is stock BC Rich pup with only a red and white wire, the bridge is a Seymour Duncan with the black/green/white/red/bare wires. The ground attached to the claw-hook is soldered onto the neck pot (that's how it was before I even changed anything and everything worked)

At first there were wires with two wires inside, and they were connected from the middle lugs of the volumes to their respective position in the 3-way and the other wire was a ground that went to the ground-side of the 3-way. I have switched these for 2 individual wires, the yellow going from lug-to-position and the black going from ground-to-ground.

This is the exact 'hook-up wire' I'm using, just in case that makes any difference whatsoever: http://www.axetec.co.uk/axetec%20guitar%20parts%20spares%20pickups_026.htm

I'm just unsure of a few things: can too much solder on a joint affect signal? Are there specific groups that wires have to be grounded in together in order to work properly? Considering there are grounds going from every pot to everywhere else, does it matter that the bridge's ground is soldered onto the neck pot? I have tried soldering a ground in between the neck and bridge pots, but that didn't help. Would it help to solder a ground between all pots?

Cheers

[thearabianmage]

Oh yeah, and on the bridge pot, the ground lug is soldered back and on its own the green/bare wires are soldered in the same blob as the ground wire that goes to the pup selector. It seems when I attach all the wires onto the lug that soldered to the top of the pot, the pup goes dead.

[ted s]

"can too much solder on a joint affect signal? - I don't think it's possible to fit that much solder in there.

"Are there specific groups that wires have to be grounded in together in order to work properly?" - All thing considered, no.

"Considering there are grounds going from every pot to everywhere else, does it matter that the bridge's ground is soldered onto the neck pot?" - no

"I have tried soldering a ground in between the neck and bridge pots, but that didn't help. Would it help to solder a ground between all pots?" - Wouldn't hurt.

"It seems when I attach all the wires onto the lug that soldered to the top of the pot, the pup goes dead." - Sounds like somewhere in the path you have sunk the signal to ground, check all the lugs and make sure there isn't any stray solder where it shouldn't be. Are you using stranded wire ? If so, look for strands that may be bridging a termination.

Other than that, having a functional diagram applicable to your application and absolutely known good hardware you should be ok.
Is the hardware new or used ?

Are you positive of the terminal configuration of the pup selector switch ?

BTW, nice tidey work there.

[thearabianmage]

Is the hardware new or used ?


Thanks for the response! All three pots and the selector are new, as well as 75% of the wires. The input jack was a bit dodgy so I switched it with another one, but that's not new. Would it make any difference that 2 pots are CTS and one isn't?

The comment on stray solder may be very helpful, actually. Do you, or anyone else, have any tips for removing stray solder? I just seem to wipe it on the iron then straight to a wet cloth, but that's not always effective. . .

Another thing, with the wire I'm using, there are two colors: yellow and black. Right now, I'm using yellow for hot connections and black for grounding. Apart from its obvious organizational purposes, does it matter which wire is used for which job?

Thanks again!

[ted s]

Check the difference with this pic. at the switch detail.
http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Electronics/Wiring_diagrams/i-1217.html

edit .. nevermind, only one volume on this one.

[ted s]

Would it make any difference that 2 pots are CTS and one isn't?
- as long as there lug formation is standard, no.

The comment on stray solder may be very helpful, actually. Do you, or anyone else, have any tips for removing stray solder? I just seem to wipe it on the iron then straight to a wet cloth, but that's not always effective. . .
- I have a sucker for lifting hot solder off of the work.

Another thing, with the wire I'm using, there are two colors: yellow and black. Right now, I'm using yellow for hot connections and black for grounding. Apart from its obvious organizational purposes, does it matter which wire is used for which job?
- no

[marnold]

Yeah sorry, I know it was a bit vague - it was like 4:30 AM and I had been working on it for around 5 hours straight.
Well, first of all, we love ya, Mage. Secondly, diagnosing things at 4:30 A.M. after working on it for so long probably won't help the debugging process :)

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. I could see on the picture that the green and bare wires from the Duncan are grounded and the black one is to the volume control which are correct. I assume you've got the red and white leads soldered together and covered in electrical tape. Make sure that they aren't contacting the back of the pot in any way, because that will short out one coil of the humbucker which will give you low volume.

It's hard to tell from the picture but it almost looks like the hot output from the bridge pot is contacting the ground. If that is the case, you won't get any output at all. When you are working in such a tight space like that, problems like that can come up.

Also make sure that your ground and hot connections are going to the right lugs on the jack. That'll kill your output in a big hurry too.

Beyond that, I'm hoping that DVM checks in here since he has far more experience.

[Tim]

As ones soldering skills improve there is no such thing as extra solder on a component. I always take a small flat file and sharpen my soldering iron tip. This also removes oxidize which has accumulated on the tip. Always use a heat sink to avoid over heating sensitive components or melting wire covers or internal parts. A solder sucker is good for removing old solder and starting fresh on a new modification. Remember the heat sink. I use a plain old alligator clip. Also remember that soldering needs to be fast and clean. The longer you apply the heat, the more damage can be done. I use a wet rag to periodically remove excess solder and oxidize from the tip during projects. Like Marnold stated, the picture does not show a good example of the wiring. I can only recommend to study the new wiring schematic that you plan to use more closely. Then trace each wiring on the present set up to see if it agrees up with the schematic. If not make corrections.

[thearabianmage]

Well, first of all, we love ya, Mage. Really?


Secondly, diagnosing things at 4:30 A.M. after working on it for so long probably won't help the debugging process :) Too true. . .


I assume you've got the red and white leads soldered together and covered in electrical tape. They are indeed. . . Does it matter where they hang even if they are in electrical tape?


It's hard to tell from the picture but it almost looks like the hot output from the bridge pot is contacting the ground. I had a little dig round here and made sure everything was where it was meant to be, which it was. Then, I hooked her up and it was quiet, then after fiddling with the input jack a second (twisting the lead) the pickup came to life! But now the neck is still silent for the most part (during the 2nd re-wiring, I didn't even touch this pot :( ) And the tone still doesn't work. And then, when I was checking the bridge to make sure it was on, it went off again. . .



Also make sure that your ground and hot connections are going to the right lugs on the jack. That'll kill your output in a big hurry too. That's actually a really good tip. I did that last night, I had the ground and hot wired to the wrong rings (but I heard what it sounds like through an amp if that's the case, so it was much needed experience!)


Beyond that, I'm hoping that DVM checks in here since he has far more experience. Me too. . .

Thanks, dude! You have been a good help, as always!

[warren0728]

lots of smart folks on this forum....i'm learning a lot from this thread and i've never soldered anything! might have to try it sometime... :bravo:

ww

[M29]

Hello,

Would it be possible to get more light into your cavity and maybe use a macro setting on the camera to get a clearer picture? It is kind of hard to see everything. I don't know if there is enough extra wire in there but it helps if you can take the assembly out by unbolting the pots and pulling them up to work on them. Be sure to put a good cloth to keep from scratching the guitar. Just a thought. I think it is worth the time and the experience is also good.
Tim, I don't know if you know about aluminum heat sinks but they work much faster and absorb a tremendous amount of heat compared to a steel alligator clip. They look just like an alligator clip but absorb much better. Most Rat Shack's or electrical supply stores carry them. Just a thought.

Edit: I forgot about removing solder. There is a product called desolder braid and it is excellent for removing excess solder. It is a rolled up length of braided copper about 3/16 wide and is available at electrical supply stores. You put the braid on the solder you want removed and then put the soldering iron on top of that and when it heats up and melts the solder it sucks the solder right off the component that you are soldering to. Great product. Maybe a piece of thin copper will work in a pinch.

M29

[thearabianmage]

Always use a heat sink. I use a plain old alligator clip. Uh oh. . . I've never heard of a heat sink. Is that something that takes in excess heat? What's an alligator clip?


Also remember that soldering needs to be fast and clean. The longer you apply the heat, the more damage can be done. My soldering is improving and I do try to keep everything as cool as possible, but with potentiometers, I was always under the impression that they are tanks, electrically speaking. As in they are able to take a fair bit of heat before their internal components (mainly the PCB) starts melting. Are there many dangers in over-heating pots?


Like Marnold stated, the picture does not show a good example of the wiring.

I'll do another shortly. I want to make sure that all of my connections are cool, so to speak, so maybe a better picture will uncover more problems to the trained eye.

Thanks!

[M29]

I did a quick search and found this.

Here is a picture of desolder braid used in soldering. http://www.heirloomradio.com/images/braid.jpg

Here is a picture of a typical heat sink, this one is the aluminum type I mentioned. Steel should work fine but there is more heat transfere with aluminum. the heat sink is on the left. I know it is hard to see but a search will find a better view.

http://www.heirloomradio.com/images/tools.jpg

Be sure you have enough heat to solder all those grounds to a lug or back of a pot. It takes a bit of heat to get a good solder joint with that many wires together and then the metal of the pot or lug as well. I use 20 watts for most wiring and 40 watts for heavier stuff like backs of pots and groups of wire.

Try to avoid cold solder joints, get them pretty hot but not overly hot. Don't be afraid to get in there and get it hot to do the job and use a heat sink in areas where you don't want to damage surrounding components or what ever.

I hope this helps.

M29

[thearabianmage]

Okay, here are a couple more pictures. I'm sorry about the light, it's an overcast day, and the clarity, it's a camera-phone.

I'll give them a bit of explanation as well:

The first picture is of the neck pot and the pup select. The thin black wire to the very left is the ground between the pot and the bridge. The red wire is the wire from the neck pup (it splits in two - one grounded on top of the pot, and the other in the bottom-most lug) The yellow wire connects the pot to its position on the pup select, the thick black wire under the red wire is the bridge pup's wire (goes around the select and to the bridge pot) and the final black wire coming from the top of the neck pot is the ground between that pot and pup select.

The next pic is of the bridge pot and the tone pot. The huge orange thing is the Sprague Orange Drop capacitor (quite a nice cap, too!) On the bridge pot, the green/bare wires from the bridge pup and the black ground wire between the pot and select are soldered on the same batch - but they are not twisted together as three (the green/bare wires are twisted together) The batch they are soldered to is separated from the solder that is holding the lug to the top of the pot.

On the tone pot, it's pretty straight-forward. The yellow wire is from the input jack and it is soldered onto the left-most lug with another wire from the same lug going to the middle position on the pup select. With the yellow wire, it looks like it's not soldered in properly (you can see through the hole in the lug) but trust me, it's tight. The black wire is the ground from the jack and that is wired onto the same batch the cap is. Another black wire from the same batch connects the tone pot to the ground on the pup select.

Alltogether, there are three grounds going from pots to the select and instead of twisting them together and putting them through the hole (the hole was too small) I instead put a bit onto the ground and wired each wire in individually. I thought that might be better.

The biggest problem I can think of is the actual input jack. I seem to have to keep twisting the lead to get a signal. And that is with both the input jacks I've used (a new one is on the way, but I can't see this being the only problem) With the first input jack, the neck pup worked, and with the second jack, the bridge pup 'sort of' works.

But at the moment, nothing works - neither the tone nor the pups. Everything looks/seems right, though. . .

Cheers

[duhvoodooman]

Howdy. Hope I can help out here. First--the photos are really hard to make out any useful detail here, and written descriptions are always very hard to follow. The first thing I'd like to make sure is that your wiring scheme is correct. Once we can verify that, then it would point to either a bad component (rare, but happens) or a bad connection or short (very common, particularly for soldering novices).

The photos just won't do, so I would ask you to make a diagram and post it. Doesn't have to be anything fancy or artful--just detailed and accurate. Please do this and post it back here, then we'll take it from there. Hand-drawn and scanned or done in MS Paint or some other simple graphics editing program would be fine.

[thearabianmage]

Howdy. . .make a diagram and post it, then we'll take it from there.

Here you are, I hope this helps.

Cheers!!

[duhvoodooman]

OK, assuming you've double-checked all your wiring and confirmed that it's hooked up exactly per your diagram, that should be correct. So that eliminates one potential problem.

Going back and reading your comments, it's looking more and more to me like either a bad solder joint or maybe a short. Because you talk about the pickups cutting in and out when you've been fooling around at the jack, it suggests the issue is with one of the common connection point for both pickups. I've marked them up on the attached GIF image. I'd start with the ones on the ouput jack itself, and then on the tone pot, since these are the ones most likely affected by moving the jack. Check for a solid connection, and no exposed bits of wire touching anything they shouldn't. Remelt all the joints and let them cool being careful not to move any of the wires or components at all. Also check for any stray bits of solder in the wrong places.

Also, a couple of questions:


At the moment, are either of the pickups working? If so, does the tone control work when that pickup is active?
Does the middle position of the 3-way work at all? Either or both pickups come through?
Did you rough up the back of the new pots in any way before soldering to them? I've encountered some that had a kind of bronzed look, due to some type of coating on them. Solder adhered very poorly to them until I scratched them up with some fine sandpaper. If you found that you had a hard time getting your solder to adhere to the back of the pot and it kept on kind of just puddling on the surface, that could cause a continuity problem.
Do you have access to a digital multimeter? This could be invaluable in troubleshooting a continuity problem.


Here's the diagram:

http://www.thefret.net/imagehosting/74485d565f7e79f.gif

[thearabianmage]

DVM - thanks a lot for your reply and help! The answers to your questions:




At the moment, are either of the pickups working? If so, does the tone control work when that pickup is active?
Interesting, I first turned the amp on and both pups seemed to work in all three positions, but at 50% or less power, and the tone didn't seem to work. Then I jiggle the lead around and the bridge pup is fine, and the tone works for it, but the middle position is muddy, maybe 60%, and the neck is still 50%. . .


I've encountered some [pots] that had a kind of bronzed look, due to some type of coating on them. Solder adhered very poorly to them. . .[you'd have] a hard time getting your solder to adhere to the back of the pot and it kept on kind of just puddling on the surface
Yes, I have had that actually - you can see a little bit on the bridge pup. The original pots in Bessie had it bad !! I just thought it was poor soldering. . . Can it be caused by poor soldering as well?


Do you have access to a digital multimeter? This could be invaluable in troubleshooting a continuity problem.
This is where I sound really stupid. I own a digital multimeter - bought especially for a situation like this - but I'm not exactly sure how to test my soldering with it yet. As much as I know is that you hook the guitar up, put the black lead to a ground, and the red lead to the connection you are checking, but in all honesty, I'm still vaguely unsure as to how to read what I'm seeing.

I read that you would set the multimeter to around the impedance (or output) of the specific pickups you are testing - which 20 ohms was suggested - and check the connections, making sure that around 20 ohms was showing up on the meter. Is this right?


Again, thanks a lot!!

[marnold]

"Jiggling the lead" -- that sounds like either a band name or a euphemism for something or the other. Anyway . . . When you say that, it screams "cold solder joint" to me. Bust out the iron and reflow the joints on either end of that lead.

As long as the red and white leads are taped off and cannot make an electrical connection with anything, you're good to go. I agree with DVM about focusing your search on the areas he highlighted.

I wouldn't worry about heating up a pot too much (I mean, don't go crazy and leave the iron there for 10 minutes or something). That cap would be the most heat-sensitive bit in there. My main problem when I got to the end of my wiring project was just finding a way to get my iron to the lug without burning through the insulation on another wire. When you've got six grounds and a lead each from the jack and switch going to the pot (and that's before I wire the push-pull), there's a lot of little wires crawling around there.

I do not claim to be an expert on any of this. I'm just a clergyman with a soldering iron. Actually, when I wired up my push-pull pot and switch on my Floyd I almost had a heart attack when it all worked right first try! Well, other than the Demon being out of phase with the other two pickups, but that wasn't a wiring problem per se.

[thearabianmage]

"Jiggling the lead" -- that sounds like either a band name or a euphemism for something or the other. Anyway . . . When you say that, it screams "cold solder joint" to me. Bust out the iron and reflow the joints on either end of that lead.

Thanks, man! I'm not too familiar with solder terminology. . .what's a 'cold solder joint'? How do they occur? And how is 'jiggling the lead' indicative of this problem (how can you recognize it)?

I've just been reading these posts and routing around. . . And, well after a good hour's session playing a guitar that works, I was thinking: would taking off too much insulation when preparing the wires for soldering, then wrapping the excess wire around the lugs be a problem?

Because the cavity in Bessie was made for mini-pots, it's a tight squeeze for full-size ones, so some of the wire - though soldered to the lug - is exposed and the ends touch on the walls of the body cavity (but no bare wires are touching any other bare wires unless they are supposed to)
. And the specific wires in question just so happen to be the 'common connections' DVM mentioned. . .

Could that be it?

Cheers

[duhvoodooman]

Because the cavity in Bessie was made for mini-pots, it's a tight squeeze for full-size ones, so some of the wire - though soldered to the lug - is exposed and the ends touch on the walls of the body cavity (but no bare wires are touching any other bare wires unless they are supposed to). And the specific wires in question just so happen to be the 'common connections' DVM mentioned. . .

Could that be it?
If that's conductive shielding paint inside the cavity, it could cause a shorting problem. Try putting electrical tape over any of the points where the wires or solder lugs are contacting the sides of the cavity.

You've definitely got an intermittent contact problem of some sort. Either there's a faulty connection in the signal path somewhere, or there's an intermittent short of the signal to ground. Just have to find it and fix it.

You can check continuity with your DMM by turning it to one of the resistance settings (100K or so would be fine, though any should work). Then just contact one probe (doesn't matter which) to one point in the signal path and the other probe to another. If there's continuity, i.e. a good connection, the resistance should drop to zero. Try that between various points in your yellow wiring to see if the "hot" signal path has continuity. Do the same along the ground wiring path to make sure that's all well connected. If you happen to measure two point where one of the pickups is between, you won't get zero resistance; you should then see the resistance of the pickup on the DMM readout.

[marnold]

Thanks, man! I'm not too familiar with solder terminology. . .what's a 'cold solder joint'? How do they occur? And how is 'jiggling the lead' indicative of this problem (how can you recognize it)?

Cold solder joint == bad solder joint. You can't always tell by looking at it. The signs of a bad one are problems like you are describing: no connection, bad connection, noise, etc.

I assume by "lead" you meant one of the wires in the guitar. If you meant the cable from your guitar to your amp, then either the cable or the jack is shot (or the jack is wired improperly/cold joint/etc.).


I've just been reading these posts and routing around. . . And, well after a good hour's session playing a guitar that works, I was thinking: would taking off too much insulation when preparing the wires for soldering, then wrapping the excess wire around the lugs be a problem?

No. As a matter of fact, you want to have a good mechanical connection with the lug, i.e. to hook or wrap the wire around the lug before soldering. Having said that, you don't need to strip much of the insulation off, about 1/4" (6mm) or so, for most purposes.


Because the cavity in Bessie was made for mini-pots, it's a tight squeeze for full-size ones, so some of the wire - though soldered to the lug - is exposed and the ends touch on the walls of the body cavity (but no bare wires are touching any other bare wires unless they are supposed to)
. And the specific wires in question just so happen to be the 'common connections' DVM mentioned. . .

If the cavity is shielded (which it doesn't appear to be) then yes that would definitely be a problem. The shielding is usually copper which is grounded. Wires contacting the shielding would cause fun things like ground loops which would give you 60 cycle hum for no apparent reason.

[robert43]

Hi what I would do is 1 change the insturment lead 1st then if no joy, I would put 1 pickup directly to the lead & tap it with ascrew driver if you get sound ok. then the other the same .
After that test you switch ie in 1 postion you will get zero ohms between the middle lug & 1 other lug. In postion 3 try the same again middle with the other lug . In the middle postion you will get zero ohms between middle lug & the 2 out side lugs.If thats ok then I would looks at your pots

[thearabianmage]

So I've been a bit busy lately and haven't been able to work on Bessie's wiring. . . until tonight. I've been at it for over 2 hours trying to troubleshoot this bloody problem: re-soldering all 'common connections', checking the resistance of all connections (all 0.00), changed the jack input, put electrical tape along the walls of the cavity where bare wires were touching it. . .

Literally - I came to the amp, plugged the guitar in for the 10th time tonight - volume pedal all the way down - and said 'If it doesn't work now, I'm calling it a night.' I make sure the bridge pup is selected and that its pot is all the way up and raise the volume pedal.

Success!

It's about time! I just wanted to thank everyone that helped me out with this problem, especially DVM and Marnold. It was very much appreciated!

Cheers y'all, and rock on!

[thearabianmage]

Oh, and DVM, that tip you mentioned about sanding down the tops of pots/etc. that were hard to solder helped out as well (except it was with an input jack, so if you've never run across that scenario, just know it exists)

Thanks again!

[M29]

You may want to do something about those bare wires. I know it is tight in there but try to not strip back the insulation too much and leave too much bare wire sticking out.

Just a thought.

[thearabianmage]

You may want to do something about those bare wires. I know it is tight in there but try to not strip back the insulation too much and leave too much bare wire sticking out.

Just a thought.

And a good thought at that! I think the main problem was that I did cut the insulation off too far back and the bare wire sticking out was touching the conductive paint on the side of the cavity, so DVM suggested putting electrical tape on the cavity that was touching the bare wire, and voila!

So you are right, there, M29! :AOK:

Cheers

[marnold]

Glad to be of service. The troubleshooting might have been a PITA, but think of the money you'll save from this point on! No more paying someone else to deal with your guitar's electronics! There's also something inherently cool about doing it yourself (and overcoming a frustrating problem to boot!).

[Tim]

I love a successful story! :D :bravo: :beer: :D :bravo: :beer:

Been there, done that, and drank the beer.:beer: :beer: :beer:

[warren0728]

glad you got things worked out mage! this is truly a great community we have going on here!! :AOK:

ww

[duhvoodooman]

Glad to hear it's working. Man, I hate it when they don't!!! :reallymad: :D