New trem blocks for import Strats

[Spudman]

Guitar Fetish has produced a steel tremolo block that fits the 10.5mm spacing of Asian and Mexican tremolos.

http://store.guitarfetish.com/sosttrblfima.html

[Dauntless]

I got one in "out for delivery" status as I type! :AOK:
Got it for my 50s vibe Strat.
I'll let you know what I think.

[Spudman]

Good deal Dauntless. A official report will be greatly appreciated.

[M29]

Man that is long overdue:bravo:

Thanks Spud:AOK:

M29

[Tone2TheBone]

$19! That's a freakin' bargain!

[Spudman]

Man that is long overdue:bravo:

M29

No kidding. I tried getting a petition going to get Callaham to start doing them and he refused and was going to soak me $160 to custom make one for me.
I'm glad Jay at Guitar Fetish has good business sense. Think about how many guitars that are out there that these will fit. It's a no brainer if you ask me. There is no way to loose money by making them. It is the one upgrade to many of these guitars that will make a huge difference.

[tjcurtin1]

Stupid question since it says Asian models included, but this should fit the Fully strat, yes?

---To answer my own question, I found the screw spacing measurements at GFS and they are indeed the same...

[M29]

I don't mean to highjack the thread but I know there are a number of Squier '51 lovers here and the new rage for that is this bridge. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160245191696&rd=1

I have no affiliation with the seller but over on The Squier '51 Modders Forum this bridge is really catchin on.
Maybe Jay could be persuaded to get some of these closer to home. :poke:

I know of one Squier Strat that will get the new steel trem block and I am already spreading the word. :D

Again Thanks Spud.

M29

[Robert]

The question is how good it is, compared to what Callaham would produce?

For $19, I'm skeptic until I hear a few people saying it really is good quality.

[sunvalleylaw]

Stupid question since it says Asian models included, but this should fit the Fully strat, yes?

---To answer my own question, I found the screw spacing measurements at GFS and they are indeed the same...

That was my question too. Good to know the spacing is the same.

[Spudman]

The question is how good it is, compared to what Callaham would produce?

For $19, I'm skeptic until I hear a few people saying it really is good quality.
It's just a block of steel with holes in it. What's the difference? $19 is OK in my book for anything better than what is on the trem right now. Besides Callaham wont make them.

From the product description:


For those of you who have been waiting for these- Told ya we'd do it!!

A real SOLID STEEL tremolo block with vintage-correct dimensions- BUT... Fits the thin, cheesy "Made in Mexico" and all of the Made in Asia trems.

Why bother replacing your block?? As you can see from the photo- the stock block on all of the imports is a thin, lightweight Zinc trem block with very, very little mass.

In addition they use a fatter trem arm thread- not like the old fashioned trems- so the whole balance and feel is off. To make matters even worse the ball ends of the strings sit right up top of the block, close to the trem plate- That means almost none of the string vibration is channeled through the block, resulting in thin, weak tone and terrible sustain.

The GFS block is made from REAL Solid steel- Lead-free ROHS compliant steel- When you bang it with a screwdriver it goes "PING" and not "thunk...". The ball ends sit close to the BOTTOM of the block just like my 63, and it ONLY takes a USA standard 10-32 thread trem arm. (Sorry, your Chinese arm WILL NOT FIT)

The result is a total transformation of your guitar for UNDER TWENTY BUCKS!! Come on!! Sustain is increased noticeably, tone is like NIGHT AND DAY, even tuning stability is just a hair better. You can't NOT buy this!!

Look- there's a cottage industry of guys hand making these in the USA, with prices two, three or even four times higher than we charge. I've bought them all. These sound and feel just as good- there...I said it.

You get the block as pictured. Your stock mounting screws fit PERFECTLY, just reuse them. You will need a USA sized arm- If you have one from any vintage or modern screw-arm Strat, you're all set- if not we sell them cheap too... Just unscrew your saddles, unscrew the old block and screw the GFS unit in it's place- THAT'S IT!! be VERY careful when screwing the new block on- real steel will always have a touch of oxidation on the threads so you'll need a little bit of pressure, but they thread nice and tight and once secure- it's like a single block of metal!

These are black electrocoated to fend off rust. (Silver paint looks cool but paint tends to dampen vibration a bit, and hence tone and sustain are very slightly affected)

[Robert]

I hope you are right Spudman.... I'm just sceptic by nature. Steel prices have gone up all over the world lately, so the $19 sounds very cheap.

[Dauntless]

I just mounted my new block to the bridge plate of my Vintage Vibe 50s Strat and had to use mount screws from an old Mex Fender 70s Strat block, that I had laying around, as the scews from the Squier were to long by a couple 64ths or so.
:thwap:
Just giving you all a heads up!

Other than that niggle, perfect fit so far.
Getting ready to put the saddles back on, string her up and set her up.

[Spudman]

:munch: Alrighty then.

[Dauntless]

Bad news, the trem bar does not line up!
Didn't notice it till I started putting the saddles on.
String holes line up but the trem bar hole is off center toward the back of the plate. Kinda follows the American pattern

I suspect it would probably fit a Mexican Fender or an MIJ but it does not fit my Squier:thwap: :eek:

Hell, it sounded good without the steel anyway. :rockon:

[scgmhawk]

I was on another forum today (I should probably work more!) and Jay from GuitarFetish basically said that his are terrific quality and should be a major upgrade to stock but went on to say that Callaham makes the best. Maybe it's the grade of steel (?) that sets the higher priced ones apart?

[Tone2TheBone]

FWIW my 60s Strat has the MIM Callaham block and it's simply a work of art. Everything fits and lines up and it looks "professional". Of course he makes them for both American and MIM trems so yeah they'd definately work. I don't have any more Squiers so I don't know how those trems are designed in terms of measurement and alignment. I'd expect the GF dude to create a solid steel block that would fit ANY Squier, including the whammy bar hole. At $19 a shot it would be a dream come true.

[ZMAN]

On the FDP another fellow has had the same issues with the screw depth. NOt only were the screws too long but the depths varied by 1/2 of the overal screw length. I am wondering what kind of research is being done by Guitar fetish. They may be cheap but it has to work. 20 dollar paperweights are highly overated.

[ZMAN]

When you say the Trem bar hole does not line up do you mean the hole for the tremelo arm. I read somewhere that the thread is different, so you would need to use an american threaded arm.
I don't use the trem arm so it would work for me?

[Dauntless]

The trem arm hole!
They've updated thier page to reflect that 50% sometimes are off.
Jay also offered me an upgrade kit, with proper bridge plate or send it back.
I'll decide tomorrow.

[ZMAN]

The trem arm hole!
They've updated thier page to reflect that 50% sometimes are off.
Jay also offered me an upgrade kit, with proper bridge plate or send it back.
I'll decide tomorrow.

Thanks for clarifying that. It is great to get a heads up so you can order the correct parts BEFORE you take it apart. Did he say anything about the mounting screws size?

[Dauntless]

It looks to me that this is the best bet
http://store.guitarfetish.com/minmeimstupt.html

Then you know you got everything.

[ZMAN]

Yes for 16 bucks more you get everything. Including the fours springs!
Sounds like a plan.

[ZMAN]

Boy I am totally fed up with that FDP. I just hope this forum doesn't get like them over there. There was a thread on there about the new blocks from GF and it was deleted. Nobody can understand why. That is the second one in a couple of weeks that they have "summarily executed" for no apparent reason.
From what I gleaned from the postings over there, the trem bar hole on the block will not line up with the hole in the bridge plate for the two point trems on most asian guitars. It will work for the 6 point though. Also you need an american threaded arm but they are only 4 bucks from GFS.

[Dauntless]

Go for the kit! :AOK:

Pretty much what I'm gonna do and when I have my compadre's mexican apart, I'll check this block out. If it fits, he can buy me a box of strings, for my effort.

[Bloozcat]

Boy I am totally fed up with that FDP. I just hope this forum doesn't get like them over there. There was a thread on there about the new blocks from GF and it was deleted. Nobody can understand why. That is the second one in a couple of weeks that they have "summarily executed" for no apparent reason.
From what I gleaned from the postings over there, the trem bar hole on the block will not line up with the hole in the bridge plate for the two point trems on most asian guitars. It will work for the 6 point though. Also you need an american threaded arm but they are only 4 bucks from GFS.

There's a little history on this subject at FDP...

About 2-years ago, there was a very heated debate about steel trem blocks on FDP. It was so heated that Jim Callaham and a rep from Fender (Mike somebody, I can't remember), got into the fray. Acusations about the quality of the Callaham block and the Fender block flew back and forth, with each side claiming the superior product, with the best steel. Callaham, without saying that Fender's steel was inferior, claimed that his steel block was made the way that the old "vintage" blocks from the 50's and early 60's were. Same steel, same construction. His claim suggested that Fender no longer used the same quality of steel or construction. Mike from Fender defended the Fender block vehemently, saying that the quality of the steel was the same as it had always been. Callaham and others countered with the arguement that the string holes were counter-sunk deeper on the newer Fender blocks, thus affecting the tone adversely. All the while this was going on, posters by the dozens were adding their opinions in defense of their preferred product. It was quite entertaining, to say the least. It was probably one of the most interesting debates I've seen on FDP.

There is also one additional possibility for the deletion of the thread mentioned: From what I've observed, FDP will sometimes delete threads with links to dealers who aren't sponsers of FDP. I'm not quite sure what criteria Chris Greene uses in making those calls (or if there actually is a set standard for doing so).

[Robert]

Wow, that would have been interesting to read, Blooz! Who got the most support in the debate - Callaham or Fender?

By the way, I don't think anyone has a clue as to what criteria Greene uses for such actions. The word totalitarism comes to mind... :whatever:

[Bloozcat]

I don't mean to highjack the thread but I know there are a number of Squier '51 lovers here and the new rage for that is this bridge. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160245191696&rd=1

I have no affiliation with the seller but over on The Squier '51 Modders Forum this bridge is really catchin on.
Maybe Jay could be persuaded to get some of these closer to home. :poke:

I know of one Squier Strat that will get the new steel trem block and I am already spreading the word. :D

Again Thanks Spud.

M29

You just had to post this, didn't you M29....:thwap:

Just when I thought I had everything I could possibly want or need for my Squire 51, you come up with this. :poke:

It just goes to prove the adage: Addicts don't like to be alone in their addictions....
I know, you're just returning the favor, right...? :D

[Bloozcat]

Wow, that would have been interesting to read, Blooz! Who got the most support in the debate - Callaham or Fender?

By the way, I don't think anyone has a clue as to what criteria Greene uses for such actions. The word totalitarism comes to mind... :whatever:

I'd have to say that the results were inconclusive. Those who favored the Callaham, were unmoved by the Fender arguements, and vice-versa. It's hard to say how those on the fence were swayed, but they may have been more confused when the debate ended than when it started.

On a personal level, I really can't be too critical of Chris Greene. He is known to be more than a bit dictatorial, but he's always been ok with me...even complimentary on a couple of occasions. Still, the atmosphere at FDP in general is not as friendly, open, and easy going as it is here...:AOK:

[sunvalleylaw]

That seems fair enough. But, although I am not a member there (well a think maybe I am, I just never log in), what is the point of discussing and sharing guitar if it is not friendly, open and easy going. :)

I suppose it is "serious business" for some, but that would risk ruining it for me. I saw an article in Time last night (nerd talk was the name of the piece in the mag with Mandela on the cover) that indicates harsh talk is somewhat of a norm with some commenters on the net. I have no real reason to spend my time subjecting myself to that sort of thing though. Thanks Robert, for creating a place that is friendly, open and easy going! :AOK:

[ZMAN]

I'd have to say that the results were inconclusive. Those who favored the Callaham, were unmoved by the Fender arguements, and vice-versa. It's hard to say how those on the fence were swayed, but they may have been more confused when the debate ended than when it started.

On a personal level, I really can't be too critical of Chris Greene. He is known to be more than a bit dictatorial, but he's always been ok with me...even complimentary on a couple of occasions. Still, the atmosphere at FDP in general is not as friendly, open, and easy going as it is here...:AOK:

Thanks for the info Bloozcat. I was over there for many years and I had no issues. Then for some reason after I got into the Squier guitars, and that portion of the FDP I found a lot of deletions and censorship. Also I read Chris's manifesto and it basically says I own it I run it for profit and if you don't like it here is the hole the carpenter made. (An old Newfie saying).
All I was trying to do was help out a fellow FDPr and answer questions that were asked. When I had three or four threads that I had answered deleted, I felt that this is not what the internet is about. I had spoken to Spudman over there and he mentioned this site so I gave it a try. I agree with you 100 per cent that this is a much more easy going forum and it does seem to try to help a fellow player/collector. As I get older I now realize what valuable experience is gained by a lifetime in a certain hobby. I learned this first hand in the collector car hobby before I got back in guitars. The other thing I like is that most of the information is presented in a fashion that lets a beginner feel less intimiidated and can ask even a very basic question.
Cudos to you guys and lets really make an effort to keep it that way.
Brian

[sunvalleylaw]

Your experiences are interesting, Blooz and Zman. I came into this place an abject beginner a year and several months ago. I am glad I landed in this place almost out of the box (I found it through Dolphinstreet looking at Vox amphs) and am glad I did. Ok, I am way off topic now, but what the hey.

[M29]

:o

M29

[Big_Rob]

I was going to post asking about the GFS trem block but I found the thread I was looking for. The more I think about it, im just going to buy the whole trem with the block.

[Bloozcat]

Jay at GFS is certainly a smart, opportunistic businessman. He gives you what you need, at a good price, and he stands behind his products. He must spend a bit of time monitoring music web sites, because he seems to have a knack for bringing to market the things people are asking for. Inexpensive, steel block replacement tremolos are just the latest no brainer product he's done this with. You gotta admire a guy like that.

[Spudman]

He must spend a bit of time monitoring music web sites, because he seems to have a knack for bringing to market the things people are asking for. Inexpensive, steel block replacement tremolos are just the latest no brainer product he's done this with. You gotta admire a guy like that.

He must do that.
After I got disillusioned with Callaham as far as getting blocks made for my Squiers I stared a petition on a popular forum for Squiers. Maybe he watched those threads?

[Duff]

First I'd like to say that this is a great site. The atmosphere is not like a bunch of overly pompous engineers that only want to talk about "data" and have no room for "feelings", and "vibes", or gut feeling opinions: just data. Almost no one argues and the arguments are brief and handled like people who care about each other.

Another thing I'd like to mention is a conclusion I reached at the FDP several years ago when I first bought my tweed special edition Hot Rod Deluxe.

You wouldn't believe how down on HRDs they were. They criticized your posts, for the most part, and degraded your HRD like it was total junk and focused on point to point antique amps and twin reverbs, various expensive reissues, and bassman's. Stuff like that. When you asked about a HRD they dismissed you like you were second or third class and degraded the amps. As a result of their complaining about HRDs I took mine in to an authorized repair shop and had all the cold welds resoldered under the warranty. Evidently they were not impressed with the pcb's and considered the HRDs throw away amps; a sentiment not shared by the authorized tech that worked on mine and told me that he has seen many of them and that they are well liked amps. Also probably the most sold amp in the world.

Curiously, after not frequenting the FDP for some time I recently noticed that they are all excited about the HRDs and there is a club and all sorts of praise of the amp going on over there. That atmosphere certainly changed as far as accepting HRDs went. I couldn't believe what I was reading after having received such a cold reception years ago. There are some great experts over there though, for sure. Like Bill M. They also really accepted the Super Champ XD immediately when it came out, curiously. I guess they like the clean channel. There was much, much criticism of the clean channel of the HRDx when it first came out.

Anyone else remember their dismissal of the HRDx as a serious Fender?

Also, I had read that the trem hole on the new GFS block didn't match up with something and I'm glad to hear that there is a solution.

I wonder now, however, if the new more massive block and the replacement bridge produce the claimed improvement of tone. I would like to pick one of these up if they make a big difference. It wouldn't surprise me if it makes a highly noticeable difference in tone. Neil Young evidently puts a lot of metal on his electric guitar to improve its sound, amongst other secret things.

My personal, uneducated, opinion is that the more mass your guitar has, in the right places of course, the better it will sound. Or should I say, the more different the sound will be. Kind of like how really heavy amps sound different than thin light ones of the same power rating. The added mass must get into absorbing and transforming and re-radiating the energy. Like the difference between a speaker pushing 25 watts inside a cardboard box as opposed to the same speaker resonating inside a solid, ported and well designed heavy mahogany speaker cabinet.

Therefore, some people use brass nuts on their guitars and put in heavy metal blocks and special alloy bridges and saddles and such. Some people even put in heavy metal pickguards. All of this adds mass and must affect the tone of a really well made guitar, mahogany or otherwise. Not necessarilly making it better, but different.

Like a solid light weight acoustic guitar made out of delicate tone woods and built with inherent strength but very light would probably sound incredible and I'm sure there are delicate items like this out there.

Nevertheless, I'm interested in getting a heavy steel tremolo block that fits the hole on my guitar and trying it out. I bet it would sound significantly different just like Jay says.

Duffy

[Bloozcat]

I've replaced enough cast trem blocks with steel ones where I can most definitely confirm that there is a beneficial change in the tone.

Words like "chime", "ring", and "sustain", are all accurate descriptions of what you get from a steel trem block. Now, of course, I'm speaking of guitars that were properly set up, with no additional problems that might contribute to poor tone, like a bad nut, un-level frets, poor intonation, bad bridge saddles, etc. Just comparing the cast block to a lead free, cold rolled steel block, the steel produces better tone. And I've found this to be just as true with the heavier cast trem blocks as well. The steel block is significantly better than those also.

As I've done with all other guitars I've owned that came with cast metal trem blocks, I've just ordered one of the new GFS steel block tremolo's as a replacement for the cast block unit that came in the SX SST P-90 guitar I recently purchased. It's a cheap fix for a tone sucking problem, IMHO.

[thearabianmage]

This is good stuff, y'all, thanks for the read.

I never knew that changing the trem block made any difference what-so-ever, but once the changes were described, it was like 'Oh yeah! So it would!'

Definitely an idea for the future. . . :dude:

[Ch0jin]

Hi guys. I need to rez this thread as I'm now trying to buy replacement steel blocked trem for my Squier project.

I'm looking over the GFS stuff and was pretty much sure I knew what I needed. I don't use the trem arm and am frankly terrified by the thought of setting them up (hence why my other guitars are hardtails) so I'm after a drop in replacement for improved TONE more than bomb dive-ability.

My Squier is an '89 Made in Korea, So I figured the "MiM Import Strat UPGRADE trem- Solid STEEL block D45" was the go. I mean it says "Made in Mexico, Made in China, Made in Korea etc"

But

I pulled my trusty measuring stick out and lo and behold, the grungy old trem in there now appears to have USA Fender spacing, not Korean spacing.

Unless I'm doing this all wrong I'm confused.

All from GFS data, but apparently I'm supposed to be measuring 52.5mm from hole to hole. But I'm getting 56.5mm from centre of the first screw to the centre of the last. According to GFS thats USA Fender territory. It also says the string spacing for the USA version is 11.3mm. Mine kinda vary depending on how centered the string is on the saddle, but 11.3 is about right.

So. I'm thinking I'd better order the USA spaced version but I can't get my head around why my el-cheapo MiK Squier would have a Fender USA trem in it (assuming that's the correct conclusion). I mean I bought this axe used and it already had a dimarzio chopper in the bridge, so it's been modded somewhat already and therefore it's not impossible someone swapped the whole trem assemble from a real strat, but if so, why?

Side question/observation. I'm always knocking the high e off the fretboard past the 9th fret on this guitar and compared to most guitars I've played it's perilously close to the edge of the fretboard and thats why. Maybe 1mm to 1.5mm from the 12th fret down. It kinda hovers .5mm from the edge of the fretwire after the 15th. I'd always assumed my neck was bolted on a little crooked as there is a good 4mm from the low e to the edge of the fret, but maybe someone has replaced the original trem and thats whats mucked it all up. I'd just assumed things like the spacing and width of trems on strats were all the same regardless of where they came from. That myth has been exploded on me, but now I'm wondering if you have to match trems to necks as well!! (Like should I be trying to install the "import" trem with closer spacing to get my little e back on the fretboard instead of re-aligning the neck)

Last question. Assuming it is cool to use a USA strat spaced trem on a Squier, would you go the wilkinson vintage steel block or just the regular one?

Anyway, sorry for the assault of questions, but I'd appreciate your thoughts before I click "go" on my enormous shopping list of bits from GFS.

[Dauntless]

Jay is pretty good about his customer service.

Get the US standard one and if it doesn't fit, he'll probably swap ya.
Going by your measurements, it'll probably fit, spacing wise.
Is the body standard Strat thickness?

The metric trem fit perfect, on my CV but on my Deluxe, the block is a little long.

Try it and see.

[Bloozcat]

If your screw hole spacing is truly American sized, spend the extra $5.00 and get the Wilkinson tremolo with the steel block from GFS. Not only is it a better quality unit than the GFS import replacement w/steel block (I own both), it also has a 2-1/8" string spread which is narrower than the 2-3/16" spread of the American std. That will correct the problem of the high E string slipping off the edge of the fretboard.

[Ch0jin]

Thanks Guys!

I'l go ahead with the Wilkinson then and see how I go. It'd be awesome if it drops, in, lines up, -and- fix's my string spacing!!

I've got a bunch of other stuff to fit as well (OK everything except the neck, body and knobs actually) So I'll be sure and document the process when I get it underway just in case I can help someone out with info in return :)

[Dauntless]

Good luck!
And don't forget pictures

[Duff]

Some details might not cooperate with a direct drop in, like the mounting holes might not line up.

If they don't you can get a piece of thin dowel rod from Lowes and get a tight fit and glue it in with a little wood glue. You can then drill the proper holes with the proper line up. The current trem might not be lined up right anyway by the sound of the way the strings are offset on the neck. Might as well take your time and do it right.

Also, you might want to check that the clearances for the larger block will be tolerable. You might have to file or sand some of the block chamber to allow for full movement of the bottom of the block, things like that.

I'm sure you can do the job but it might not be an exact drop in and maybe you will be better off if it isn't, considering that it might not have been done right the first time. Be careful and take your time and have plenty of light and a flashlight.

Sounds like you are going to have an awesome guitar to be proud of.

Duffy

[Bloozcat]

Thanks Guys!

I'l go ahead with the Wilkinson then and see how I go. It'd be awesome if it drops, in, lines up, -and- fix's my string spacing!!

I've got a bunch of other stuff to fit as well (OK everything except the neck, body and knobs actually) So I'll be sure and document the process when I get it underway just in case I can help someone out with info in return :)

Warning: Long post here. Once I got started typing, I got carried away. :)

You're welcome, ChOjin!

As Duff says, it's pretty easy to drill out, and then plug the holes if the bridge doesn't line up properly. Check the location of the low E string in relation to the fretboard as it is now. Then placed the Wilkinson bridge on the guitar body with the hole on the low E side lined up with the hole in the body. Then check that the string position on the fretboard is the same or inboard slightly from the stock bridge positioning. If that's ok, check the high E string to see if the offset from the fretboard edge is the same as that of the low E string (with the same low E side bridge/body hole alignment).

Once that's all set, you can then note which bridge mounting body holes are offset from the new Wilkinson bridge, and those are the ones that will need to be plugged and re-drilled.

There are two ways that you can get the length of the plugs right so that they end up flush with the surface of the body. One is to check the depth of the drilled hole, then cut the dowel to that length. Keep in mind that a drill bit leaves a concave bottom to the hole due to the convex shape of the drill bit tip. Your dowel will be cut flat. If you want the dowel pin to fill the drilled hole as close as possible, you can sand a radius on one end to match the shape of the bottom of the hole. In truth, it won't make any difference to the tone or the job if you just leave the dowel pin end flat as cut. Glue the pin in using Tight Bond wood glue, Elmers wood glue, or even Elmers white glue.

The other way is to use a dowel pin that is longer than the hole is deep. To cut it flush would require you to first glue the dowel pin in place and let it dry overnight. Next, tape the area of the body around the pin with a double layer of the blue painters tape, and then use a Japan saw to cut the pin off flush with the body. A Japan saw is a thin bladed saw with non-offset teeth that won't gouge into the body. They can be bought pretty cheap at Harbor Freight Tools if there's one near you.

I prefer the second method as it is the more foolproof of the two, but the first method will work well enough if you're careful with your measurements and cutting. Remember, the pins will be covered by the bridge plate, so a not-so-pretty job won't show. I also prefer to use prepared dowel pins as they are splined (and usually radiused on the ends). When you put glue on a pin and press it into a hole, there is a hydraulic effect as the air beneath the pin gets compressed in the bottom of the hole. The splines in a prepared dowel pin allow the air that's trapped beneath the pin to escape as you press the pin into the hole. A smooth dowel pin will tend to pop up out of the hole, and if the fit is very tight, it can create a problem. Making the hole just slightly larger than the pin diameter will also allow the air to escape and won't compromise the fit appreciably once the glue's dry.

Whew! A few pictures could have saved many words here, but I never think to take any when I'm doing something like this. Oh well, I hope the written version is descriptive enough to create a suitable "mental picture".

[Duff]

Further thinking on this has me thinking that if the Wilkinson x and 1/8 and the American one is x and 3/16 we are only talking 1/16 of an inch that you would gain for overall outside to outside string spacing. Looks like you could put the 1/16th on the one side; but 1/16th is quite a small distance. I wouldn't think this would be very noticeable considering any possible marks of the craftsman that might affect the tolerance of the holes you drill; it might now break your way. You could easily loose the entire or half the 1/16th just in drilling variance. You might want to use a very small diameter, like 1 mm drill bit to precisely drill a pilot hole or use a pointed punch to set a starting point for the drill bit, in order to be as exact as possible considering your string is already moving off the board too frequently.

Also, setting this idea aside and going back to the GFS trem, the GFS trem might be the best idea.

You would gain room on each side of the board. If you have way too much on the side of the board that has extra room, this might not be a great idea, but if the room on the good side is appropriate and could stand to be a little farther in, the GFS trem would be essentially guaranteed to solve your string slipping off the board problem. On the other hand if the good side could stand, realistically, to be moved out toward the outside of the board without being less than ideal, repositioning the Wilkinson might be a decent idea, maybe. If you are going to have to plug and drill anyway, it might make sense to use the GFS one and have strings that fit the board better. 1/16 is not much to begin with, and cosidering the tolerance inaccuracy that is added in by the craftsman, you could easily loose a significant part of the 1/16" you are expecting to gain. 1/16 inch is less than 2 millimeters. That is a very small amount of space considering you are mounting a piece of hardware on top of the guitar. I can see a variance resulting that could cause you some dismay.

I would probably move to the safe side and use the GFS one and know that I have room to move and will have strings that won't slip off the board when I'm done. Then I'd deal with the problem of the longer block on the GFS unit.

Just my ideas, but having done a lot of close tolerance work I know how you can easily be off by 2 mm with no problem or intention of your own, using the best laid plans.

I might get one of those GFS trems. And I'm sure I wouldn't want to put in a different one and after all that work find out that I had to go back and put the GFS in anyway, redrilling, more sloppiness, time, frustration, etc.

I would very, very carefully, using a metric rule of top quality, remeasure your values. Cheap metric or US type rulers are notorious for being inaccurate. A good metric engineers rule would work great. The way to pick a good one is to compare a few at the store and line them up together and see if the increment lines match up perfectly. Then buy one that matches up with the most other rules. It'll probably be true. You could be using an inaccurate rule. Maybe try another one you have on hand and I would avoid using a tape measure because the ends introduce variance.

Hope these ideas help save time and effort and stimulate some positive thoughts. Think it thru, take your time, get great measurements verified several times, decide what's best for you and go for it and hope you don't wind up in a jam.

Duffy

[Ch0jin]

OK well by way of update, I can confirm my box of GFS goodies has arrived in Australia, so I'm hoping to get a nice present from the mail courier guy tomorrow :)

As promised I'll document the project just in case I can help someone else out in the future. I thought I might try and blog it as an excuse to try creating a blog. (verdict, using wordpress is so super easy it's ridiculous)

Anyway. Not much there yet obviously but if your interested in seeing what a modded '89 Squire Strat looks like before and after I get at it....

http://imseeingvoices.wordpress.com/

I've also been working on a cool tubescreamer kit that's in the final throws, a parts bin "Rangemaster Treble Booster" and the "Denim Demon" fuzz (yes, it's finished in real denim) I've been trialling a bunch of mods for Crybaby Wah's too so I'll let you all know how that works out too :)

[Duff]

Ch0jin,

Excuse me, friend, I didn't know you were an engineer.

Explaining to you about the variance introduced by the craftsman is something you definitely have been aware of for many years. I used to be an industrial designer and had to floor check parts workers were producing by bringing the original drawings out to the floor and eyeballing them by placing the parts, when possible right on top of the drawing. Blueprint machines can introduce some distortion of dimensions on the actual print, at least in the old days.

I'm sure you are able to do the best job possible lining up the Wilkinson and then you will have the better trem.

The average guitar modder might not have the exact precision tolerance skills that you definitely possess. You stand the best chance of working within very close tolerances but you could still be off a little but probably a lot less off than most of us.

Good luck with the project.

Duffy

[Ch0jin]

Hey whats funny is, when you were talking about measuring devices I had a chuckle because I was using my favorite Japanese made edgeless stainless steel ruler :)

Then again, a perverse love for tools is more of a guy thing in general than an engineer thing :)

I ended up ordering the Wilkinson bridge by the way. I'm hoping to get it tomorrow so we shall find out what's what soon enough.

Oh and you talk me up WAAAAAYYYY too much. I have an -appreciation- and maybe even somewhat of an understanding of working with fine tolerances with my father being extremely hands on (carpenter/cabinetmaker/building contractor/engine re-builder and on and on) and me doing what I do, but at the end of the day, I'm just a guy about to try a bunch of work I've never tried before and I appreciate -all- the feedback.

[Duff]

You dude. I've known a lot of engineers and I've actually known some that don't know how to turn a screwdriver correctly, not even close; and junk screwdrivers as well.

I once had a good friend that was an engineer and an outstanding mechanic. He told me those are the best engineers. Ones that know how to use tools and design things to be mechanic/service friendly.

He taught me how to weld with an acetylene torch without using welding rods and explained the theory. Told me the rods are just for filling in metal voids or thin areas, not actually for the welding. He said and showed me that it is the "fusing" of the two metals together in the pool of molten metal that is the weld. It was a great learning experience. You should have seen his stereo equipment. I was about 38 he was about 55, he listened to serious music, you know, what some call classical music. He had a great Nakamuchi amp or something sounding something like that and some very expensive speakers.

Great guy and very knowledgeable of theory that translated into practical applications in everyday life. He had one of those used riding lawn mowers which he said were the best that you sit on top of the engine. He fixed it up and used it to haul a small trailer all around his historic Colonial house on 10 or so acres in Connecticut. Know how much something like that is worth? He made out of wood a thing, can't remember the name, I think it is called a gimble, that he attached a long cable dremmel tool to and could work in a wide arc from the rafterish mounted gimble without having the cable get tangled or all the other unpleasant things that can happen when using a rotary tool if you don't have a gimble.

I had great respect for that guy and I have great respect for engineers that are mechanics, dudes like you that can do hands on electrical and electronic work, etc.

I heard that here in the US in NASCAR racing and INDY racing that a lot of the mechanic dudes on the pit crews are actually engineers; thet're not just mechanics.

NASCAR is, if you don't know, a form of modified stock car racing that originated in stock type cars racing and was a great advertising and marketing tool because you could actually buy cars almost exactly like these stock cars. That was the old days. Now they are not like stock cars. Everything is different. Like on my BMW motorcycle, everything is different than on the generic US and Japanesse bikes. You can tell the difference. Best bike I've ever owned and I've had bikes since I was 14. I even ride in the Winter if there is no black ice or snow or threat of snow. It's fun and psychologically therapy. Motorcycle riding might actually save many more lives than it takes.
You'd have to know what I mean.

Don't underestimate yourself. You have some special abilities and knowledge and have a great way of getting your ideas across without sounding like an a**hole.

Duffy

[Ch0jin]

Oh yeah I've met guys with theory coming out their ears who couldn't trace circuit faults to save themselves. I've always been brought up to be hands on though. Learn then apply.

Yeah I know about Nascar. It's televised here quite often actually. I love that line from Days of thunder though "Nothin' stock about a stock car".

Nascar isn't a big thing here though. We are a nation brought up on Touring Car racing. Sadly though, touring car racing has gone the way you describe Nascar. In the 60s and 70's it was homogolised (sp) street cars. You could walk into a Ford, Holden or Chrysler dealer and buy the same car you saw racing. In fact I think they used to say something like "See it race on Sunday and buy it Monday" something like that anyway. Some truly epic cars came out of the '60's and 70's touring care scene, just as they did in the USA. (in fact Camaro's and Mustangs were very regular sights on Aussie tracks back then too). Then we had the "supercar scare" of the late 70's and all our muscle cars were neutered. These days touring cars are basically all the same with differently painted bodies. Boring.

Oh and I don't ride, but I had a mate growing up who did and he went from a cheapy Suzuki 250 road bike to a BMW R65LS and then whilst he still had the BMW he got a Yamaha RZ500. So I did get to experience the difference between a German made 650cc 4 stroke shaft drive "Sport" bike and a Japanese made 500cc 2 stroke chain drive "Sport" bike. In short the Jap bike was fast, very fast, but fidgety, twitchy and temperamental (and loud). The BMW was elegant, reliable and comfortable. You'd ride the BMW to and from the track and use the RZ on the track ;)

[markb]

Callaham have the most comprehensive info on what bridges work with which guitars. Here's his MIM compatibility page.

http://www.callahamguitars.com/upgrades.htm

[Ch0jin]

Thanks Mark. I'll check that out :)

Strange thing in this case though is this Squier has 'Made in Korea' on the headstock, the serial number indicates it was made in 1989.

So as far away from a MiM or USA strat as possible I thought...
Until I measured the trem/bridge up to decide on a replacement and found mine matches USA Fender spacing...

Last night I compared the GFS Wilkinson Vintage Trem with steel block I received (NOT the one for Chinese/Korean guitars). to the one I ripped out of the Squier. Although I'd measured it up before hand, I was still a little shocked that it was a 100% drop in fit.

Even more interesting is the fact that the old assembly is heavier. 316g Vs 294g for the Wilky. The metal on the bridge plate (if thats the right word) is visibly thicker on the old bridge and the saddles look about the same. So that might account for the weight difference. The old plate is stamped "Japan" so I assume thats where it was made. The block in the old one, feels a heck of a lot like the steel one on the Wilky too, but I'm tired this morning and cant work out what its really made out of (where's my metallurgy lab!) . I'm assuming if I had a magnet lying around it'd stick to the steel and not zinc or whatever potted metal the cheapies use (although I'm starting to think I might have had a steel one all along...)

Anyway. When I'm sufficiently caffeinated and have done more research I'll write all this up properly, but the big test will be to see if my string spacing issue is resolved with the wilkinson bridge. I'm doubting it, but we shall see.

Oh and ironically, after stressing over screw spacing for a replacement bridge, thats the only part that actually does line up and drop in....

Replacement pick guard holes don't line up, new tuners are quite different so don't line up, I need to touch up the cavity routing to fit the GFS 5 way (it's fatter than the old school mechanical 5 way) and I might knock a bit out from between the bridge humbucker and body too to give it a couple of mm clearance as it's a flush fit now.

Oh and I can't get my old knobs off :( I want to use them because they are all yellowed with age and will look cool with my cream pickups and bright white pick guard... I might try soaking them in boiling water tonight, see if that free's them up. I'm just hoping nobody went and glued them on...

[Bloozcat]

That's very interesting about the trem, Ch0jin.

I guess this is one of those :thwap: moments. One of those moments of clarity that are all too common only in hindsight where you think: "A magnet...why didn't I try a magnet on that stock trem block before I ordered a whole new tremolo..."

AllParts markets a steel block tremolo that sounds suspiciously like your stock trem. AllParts doesn't publish any data on country of manufacture. Being insatiably curious, I e-mailed them for that info. They replied with a detailed description. The bridge plate was made by one manufacturer, the trem block by a different manufacturer, and the bridge saddles by yet another manufacturer...all Japanese. I suspect that this is probably the same story with Gotoh and their steel block tremolo. I would also suspect that your stock trem bridge has a vintage 2-3/16" string spacing as well as do the AllParts and the Gotoh.

For pulling the knobs off the pots, I like the "spoon method" where you take two spoons and use them as opposing levers under the rim of the knob. I usually put a soft cloth under each spoon before prying the knobs off. If the knobs don't come off easily this way (and they should), you may be right that they're glued on...although I can't imagine why they would be.

Ok...time for an update, Ch0jin...:)

[Ch0jin]

Ok...time for an update, Ch0jin...:)

OK here we go...

It's all finished now except for a few setup tweaks as I'm still not 100% happy with the action. It could really do with a new nut and maybe a fraction more relief in the neck but it sounds WAY better than before.

Anyway here's what I did. (I have a bunch of pic's but I haven't had time to upload them yet)

Stripped guitar leaving only the neck and tuners attached.

Shielded all the internal cavities with aluminium tape. I used aluminium instead of copper because my local electronics store has aluminium, not copper and frankly I didn't want to have to wait to get copper tape shipped from the USA. There were no drama's doing this, it's a real easy job if anyone is thinking of doing it. If you have a crappy ply bodied guitar though be careful with your fingers. The finish inside the cavity is very, very rough. Like most of you guys, the fingertips on my left hand are practically bulletproof so maybe use that hand to press the tape down and avoid punching holes in your right hand fingertips :)

I then attacked the trem replacement, and as I mentioned, this worked out really well for me. Yes my old one was Japanese and had a steel block, but it had incorrect string spacings for my neck. The high e was resting on the beveled edge of the fret from the 8th fret down so using that string for anything other than chords was impractical. To my absolute delight the Wilkinson dropped right in, had the correct screw spacing and the block isn't too long. I then strung up both e strings and low and behold, my string spacing issue is fixed!!

From there I went back to the electronics and wired up my new HSS pickguard using 2 GFS NAL9's (high output noiseless single coils) and a GFS FAT PAF Zebra stripe.

(Note: If you decided to do this even after what I'm going to say next, make sure you order the cream NAL9's as the zebra stripe humbuckers are black and cream, not black and white. Luckily I ordered the cream ones)

I used 250K linear pots for tones and 500K audio for volume and a 0.047 tone cap wired fairly conventionally. I did use the bottom tone control as the coil tap switch for the bridge humbucker though. This is a great idea as you can ride the volume control without fear of pushing the switch back in.

So after it all went back together I was dissapointed. The Fat PAF sounded great in the bridge and when coil tapped the single coil sound is hot and hairy. I liked it a lot. The two Neovin NAL9's though were really, really low output in comparison. At normal volume for the humbucker, the other two PU's were inaudible. They work, but they are so mismatched to the Fat PAF I would not suggest anyone uses this combination.

So I went back to the drawing board and reconfigured the guitar with the Dimarzio Fasttrack 1 that was originally in the bridge as the neck pickup and left the NAL9 in the middle. I then wired the tone pots to bridge and neck pickups. As a mate pointed out when I told him this story, I guess I'm a twin humbucker guy given the way I use my guitar electrics. Anyway.

I put it all back together and wow what an improvement. I balanced the bridge and neck PU's easily using PU height, and both deliver very nice rock crunch. The Fat PAF is exactly what it sounds like. A hotter fattened up PAF. I have a Seymour Duncan SH1 (a '59 PAF) in the neck of another guitar and you can tell they are related tone wise. Coil tapped, it's an angry little single coil sound and hum free thanks to the shielding I applied. The Dimarzio is supposed to be a bridge PU, but they do say it can be used as neck PU to match a hot bridge and they were not lying. I did not like the sound as a bridge pickup, but I'm really liking it as a neck pickup. It's not as smooth and full as the Duncan in my other guitar but it's much more complex and interesting tone wise than the original Squier single coil so I'm happy. The GFS NAL9 in the middle position is still far too low output to be balanced with the other two and I'm thinking of dropping one of the original single coils in to compare output level. If it's low too I might have to buy some kind of hot single coil, or perhaps I'll just leave it as is. After all, I'm a bridge and neck kinda guy anyway.

Running tone controls on the bridge and neck is cool and practical for me given my usage model. Using 250K pots does drop the output of both pickups a little, but if I hadn't run both pickups right into the volume pot with no tone circuit first up as I did, I'd likely not have noticed. I might try 500K pots and different cap values at some point, but I'm pretty happy with it as is.

I'm going to try swapping the audio taper volume pot for a linear taper or reverse audio taper though. Currently it's almost like a switch. All or nothing.

Overall it's hard for me to say if the Wilkinson bridge improved the sound. My feeling is that it did, but given that I changed all the electrics at the same time, hard to say. I don't care though because it fixed my string spacing and made the guitar actually playable again.

I used a pair of bread knives to remove the old knobs. They were wedged on there real tight, but I got the little suckers off in the end. I love the crisp white pick guard with cream pickups and naturally aged knobs. It's a great look.

OK what have I missed...

Oh yeah. The GFS pick guard did not even come close to lining up to the existing holes but I expected this as everyone on every forum mentions this. I might be upset if I had to drill holes in a vintage instrument, but in my case I just positioned the pick guard and drilled new holes. One of the new holes was super close to an old one so I drilled a larger hole and then filled it with PVA glue and toothpick shards, then when it was dry, drilled it for the new hole. The new pick guard is a much better fit around the bridge and neck too, so thats an added bonus aesthetically.

I also needed to shave a little extra space in the cavity to fit the GFS PCB style 5 way switch. (thats how I found out it had a ply body) 5 minutes with a dremel and that was done easily.

Well I think that about covers it. If I had access to a workshop and wasn't doing all this on my coffee table I'd actually order another Fat PAF zebra and route the cavity for the neck humbucker. I think not only would two of those FAT PAF's sound wicked good, it'd look really cool in a white on black strat too.

[Bloozcat]

Great review, Ch0Jin!

That Wilkinson bridge has been my favorite for some time now...I have three of them. Even on a neck that has the width for a 2-3/16" vintage bridge, I find that the high E string still has a tendency to slip over the edge of the neck when playing hard. The 2-1/8" string spacing on the Wilkinson corrects this without really making the string spread seem narrow.

Since you'll be experimenting with the pots again in the future, here's another thought: You could try putting a 1-meg resistor accross the outside terminals on a 500k pot to give you 333k-ohms. It's a compromise, but it's a little higher than a 300k pot and may be enough where your humbucker doesn't suffer too much high frequency loss (as with 250k pots). Just a thought...

Ain't modding a gas...?

[bigoldron]

I've ordered the MIM Replacement Tremolo kit from Guitar Fetish and it should be here Christmas Eve. This is the tremolo with the solid steel block, which is supposed to really help the sustain and tone on my Squier Strat. I've also ordered a set of GFS Premium Texas Special Strat Pickups from Guitar Festish too and I'm really excited about the change of sound that these should make to my Squier.

Wish me luck guys! :bravo:

[Bloozcat]

I've ordered the MIM Replacement Tremolo kit from Guitar Fetish and it should be here Christmas Eve. This is the tremolo with the solid steel block, which is supposed to really help the sustain and tone on my Squier Strat. I've also ordered a set of GFS Premium Texas Special Strat Pickups from Guitar Festish too and I'm really excited about the change of sound that these should make to my Squier.

Wish me luck guys! :bravo:

I was playing my SX SST with the P-90's yesterday, and I'm still elated at the tone that guitar produces since I put that steel block trem from GFS in it. The combination of the mahogany body, the maple neck, and that trem, really combines for this beautiful, sweet, ringing tone. I couldn't be happier with it.

I'm sure you're going to notice a big difference in your Squire bigoldron...:AOK:

[Duff]

That Mahogany SX sounds like a nice P90 strat. I almost got one. Maybe if they come around again. I want to get the sss model. That bridge sounds worth getting. Did you have to do any carving?

I have been playing my Epi SG '66 Gibson std copy with covered humbuckers and it sounds great thru a tube amp, chimes like a strat and drives like an LP. Really nice guitar, sounds way better than the G-400 Epi's I tried. Definitely one of my best sounding guitars and all mahogany.

I have a Squire standard with duncan designed humbuckers and a mahogany body that also sounds great, two point tremolo makes using it a lot easier and subtly more accurate.

I need to check the Rondo site. Almost bought a junked out but great playing, great action and neck, Squire affinity tonight for 100. Got to thinking I could get one of those nice SX's for that price, new, unbeat. Put in some hot rails or power rails or texas staggers or something and have a real nice guitar. I might even try a set of gold Lace Sensors. But a set of GFS rails or Texas premiums sounds great at a much lower price.

Be great to hear how the Texas GFS pickups sound.

Duffy

[Bloozcat]

I did have to rout the trem cavity a bit, Duff. I took out about 1/8"-3/16" from the high E side of the cavity to get enough clearance and to make the rout symetrical with the clearance at the other end. If you don't have a router, you could easily do it with half round and rat tail files. A Dremel tool would be a big help as well.

[bigoldron]

I did have to rout the trem cavity a bit, Duff. I took out about 1/8"-3/16" from the high E side of the cavity to get enough clearance and to make the rout symetrical with the clearance at the other end. If you don't have a router, you could easily do it with half round and rat tail files. A Dremel tool would be a big help as well.

Do you think I'll have to do any routing on my Squier? From what I've heard, it should be a drop-in. Guess we'll find out soon!

[Bloozcat]

Do you think I'll have to do any routing on my Squier? From what I've heard, it should be a drop-in. Guess we'll find out soon!

From what I've heard, it is a drop in, but I have no first hand experience there.

[bigoldron]

Blooz, I did have to do a little routing on the bass side. This IS a Squier Strat and not a Fender MIM Strat, so there may be a little variation there. But, a little routing and it dropped right in. The only problem, and it may not be one, is that the steel block sticks out the back of the body. I can't put the cover on because of the steel block.

I may just leave it like that or try to engineer a cover with a shim around the edges to give it enough clearance. The sustain does sound better! I'm still trying to get the action like I want it, but I'll get her there.

Overall quality of the trem kit does seem to be very good. Maybe a MIM or MIJ Strat body is a little thicker so the protruding block won't be a problem.

[Bloozcat]

Blooz, I did have to do a little routing on the bass side. This IS a Squier Strat and not a Fender MIM Strat, so there may be a little variation there. But, a little routing and it dropped right in. The only problem, and it may not be one, is that the steel block sticks out the back of the body. I can't put the cover on because of the steel block.

I may just leave it like that or try to engineer a cover with a shim around the edges to give it enough clearance. The sustain does sound better! I'm still trying to get the action like I want it, but I'll get her there.

Overall quality of the trem kit does seem to be very good. Maybe a MIM or MIJ Strat body is a little thicker so the protruding block won't be a problem.

It sounds like your Squire body is a little on the thin side, like the Affinity Strat is. I had an after market Strat body that was like that, and I ground the trem block down until it was below flush with the back of the body. It was a bit of work to do, but it solved the problem.

[bigoldron]

It sounds like your Squire body is a little on the thin side, like the Affinity Strat is. I had an after market Strat body that was like that, and I ground the trem block down until it was below flush with the back of the body. It was a bit of work to do, but it solved the problem.

From the serial number on the Squier, I've pretty much determined it's an Affinity series. Right now, I'm leaving it as is - REALLY don't want to start grinding on the trem block. I may contact Guitar Fetish and get their two cents on it.

[mrmudcat]

From the serial number on the Squier, I've pretty much determined it's an Affinity series. Right now, I'm leaving it as is - REALLY don't want to start grinding on the trem block. I may contact Guitar Fetish and get their two cents on it.



Leave the cover off:rotflmao:

[bigoldron]

Leave the cover off:rotflmao:

Will it hurt the sustain if the trem block's touching my stomach?

[mrmudcat]

Yea it might not be good if it sticks out to far and is in the way:D Just giving you crap but even though I have a shit load to do you know im full of anticipation of coming home to Georgia or wherever we land:poke: (1 vote Georgia:wave: )

[Duff]

I would probably use my portable grinder and place the block in a vise and make a mark with a permanent marker and grind it down to where it will fit with a small amount of clearance. I don't think this will affect tone in any significant way. What other effect grinding might have I don't know, but I don't think there are anythings special on the bottom of the block.

An excellent option would be to make that permanent marker line and bring the block to a automotive machine shop and have them professionally grind it down for you with really high quality smooth equipment.

I am quite experienced with a grinder, grinding down weld joints, grinding many things. I can get a nice smooth even grind, most of the time; but it is easy to not get an even line and have it look messed up. That is where the automotive machine shop that does "heads" and things like that will be able to do a perfect job for next to nothing, possibly free.

Hope this helps you. Might as well have it right. If the block contacts anything it is going to mute it, to some unknown extent. I'd have it ground down without hesitation and put it in right.

Good luck with it and I'd like to hear how it turns out because I might order one with my next GFS order.

Duffy

[Bloozcat]

Will it hurt the sustain if the trem block's touching my stomach?

Well, if you have rock hard ABS, it might just help the sustain....:D

[bigoldron]

Well, if you have rock hard ABS, it might just help the sustain....:D

Check my avatar - not happenin'. You remember the old Special K "pinch an inch" ad campaign? I'm more of the "here, have a handful..." type. :rotflmao: