Has it gone too far?

[Spudman]

Anyone notice the article in the current Guitar Player magazine on all the low wattage amplifiers?

They look and probably sound great but is $1,200 - $1,800 too much for a less than 20 watt amp?

I think it's nuts.

[sunvalleylaw]

Esp. when the H&K you have was for about 7 - 8 hundred before you got it on blow out for about half that! Lucky Duck!

[aeolian]

I do agree with you that these amps are spendy, but I think there are reasons for it.

I believe building a smaller amp is not much less work than a building a big amp, although the materials do cost more in sum total e.g. another speaker, bigger amperage transformer, whatnot. But these amps are hand built so the labor cost component is higher than building a bigger amp.

Another reason (and may be the main one) is that most guitar players are hobbyist playing at home, and a 50 watt tube amp is just not suitable for home use, but they still are tone hounds who wants the 'best' sounding amp and therefore willing to pay for it. I have to admit I own one of these boutique amps, it is my only tube amp (my AD30VT does not count). At 20 watts and volume set to 2 I can be heard throughout the whole house; if anything I really need a smaller amp but one that can move some air. Also I see many performing artists now just playing through 15-20 watt amps on stage with their amp mic'ed. I take it that that give them the same tone on stage as in practice, although I don't really know because I'm not good enough to play out.

Are they worth the money? All I can say is that my boutique amp sounds better than a Blues Jr. But over $1000 better? That's hard to say. It does bring a smile to my face when I play through it, and that's what the money is paying for.

[sumitomo]

It's a little steep but point to point is alot of work it would cost just as much for a 1 watt.Sumi:D

[Bloozcat]

Well Spud, I think it's indicative of the level of discretionary income out there. Sure, professionals can afford it, especially as they're necessary tools of their trade. But a lot of the rest of the market is probably baby boomers with income levels that they didn't have when they were struggling 20 something year old musicians. For some guys it's that Harley they always wanted, or that big boat. For others, it's "booteek" music equipment. Mid life toys take on many forms....

Having said all that...I agree with you Spud...it's a little over the top. And I think that's why companies like Epiphone and Blackheart are finding ways to deliver the approximate tone at a fraction of the cost. Good thing too, cause I'm a cheap SOB myself.....:D

[Robert]

I think wattage doesn't have so much to do with the costs of making them.

There are lots of variety in pricing of amps, but GP often reviews the really expensive ones, for some reason.

[ZMAN]

I really can't understand the Butyk amps myself. All you need is a blues junior at 15 watts it is all you really need. Probably the best amp out there for that money. Then there is the Blues Deluxe. 22 Watts and tone to die for. OK it is in the 900 to 1000 range but IS the tone most have been looking for. I have a couple of 40 watters in the Vibrolux and the Blues Deluxe Reissue, but they just don't get used.

[street music]

It is just like gasoline, it's something that the consumer will pay the price for and so the price stays high for such items. It is really crazy what some of the guitar companies are asking for a so called hand made guitar, I mean just how much of it isn't hand made. Yes, we can get cheaper made products and sometimes we get a great item at a cheaper price but w all still want to have the best we can get for the money. I want a good acoustic amp but for the time being I have finally got a couple of selections on my Zoom pedal that make my Takamine sound good through my Princeton. I have looked at many acoustic amps in the last year and just can't see the big bucks they want for a better known brand and I'm not comfortable with some of the cheap ones.

[t_ross33]

Also I see many performing artists now just playing through 15-20 watt amps on stage with their amp mic'ed. I take it that that give them the same tone on stage as in practice, although I don't really know because I'm not good enough to play out.

A) If I can play out, ANYONE can :rotflmao:

B) You are correct. Smaller wattage amps will tend to hit that "suhweet" spot and break at lower volume and overall sound tighter. If the amp is mic'd, then there is no need for it to be screaming over the drummer, plus many giggers are using in-ear-monitors now so there is a lot more control over stage volume (a good thing IMHO) and less of a need to blast everyone out of the bar with banks upon banks of stacks :dude:

[Spudman]

Some really good points being brought up here.

"Discretionary income" seems to be the one that sticks in my mind for some reason. A working pro (recording artist) might justify one but then the other point about getting 95% of the tone with something less spendy makes sense too. Folks are still getting great sounds out of cheaper amps. Is it worth it to spend an extra $1,000 or more? Not to me it isn't.

Maybe the low wattage - point to point amps are the new Harley for those with an identity crisis? I can see that with gas prices what they are. Make an investment in a guitar and amp then stay home and ride the couch instead. Much cheaper and you can eat while you ride too.

Point is that you almost have to have some extra $ just sitting around burning a hole in your pocket in order to say to yourself "I think I'll blow $2,000 on an amp that wont even vibrate ants off a mirror." For that kind of money you can get a number of testicle shaking air movers that put "fear" back into the club atmosfear. I guess I'm just the kind of guy that likes a bit of adrenalin brought on from my amp, especially if I'm shelling out that kind of cash.

[Robert]

But Spud, the 18 watt Dr Z Maz 18 JR NR isn't that bad - it's $1400 and I've played it - it's loud enough for any gig I would do, and it sounds STELLAR. I almost bought one.

However, some boutique amps are just a bit too much dollars, regardless of wattage. I just commented in a different thread about $4,000 for a 100 watt head made by an unknown manufacturer here in Canada. Now that's getting outta hand!

[just strum]

I must really be a cheap sob, because I can't see paying more than $300 - $400 for an amp unless you are doing gigs.

And for small room playing, you could always get one of these.

http://zvexamps.com/amp_view.html

[aeolian]

Since I appear to be the well heeled individual that buys boutique gear I want to explain my strategy.

Firstly, I sometimes come into disposal income; the last time that happened was because I made some money in the stock market. When it comes to gear (boutique or not) I always buy them used. My criteria is to look for gear that I want to evaluate at a price that I believe I can recoup if I don't like it. This way I can tried out some of these more exotic guitars and amps without the risk of losing a lot of money. As long as I have the gear my money is tied up in the gear, but it should be a wash if I turn around and sell it. From that viewpoint it is not much different than the house I live in except the house is a 'necessity.'

[Tibernius]

From that viewpoint it is not much different than the house I live in except the house is a 'necessity.'

And the guitars aren't? ;)

[just strum]

From that viewpoint it is not much different than the house I live in except the house is a 'necessity.'

Of course it is, where else you going to keep the guitars?

[just strum]

And for small room playing, you could always get one of these.

http://zvexamps.com/amp_view.html

Hey, I just noticed, no "hiss"

[aeolian]

Of course it is, where else you going to keep the guitars?

And after that comes my dog, then my children, then my wife. I hope she doesn't read this.

[hubberjub]

Since I appear to be the well heeled individual that buys boutique gear I want to explain my strategy.

Firstly, I sometimes come into disposal income; the last time that happened was because I made some money in the stock market. When it comes to gear (boutique or not) I always buy them used. My criteria is to look for gear that I want to evaluate at a price that I believe I can recoup if I don't like it. This way I can tried out some of these more exotic guitars and amps without the risk of losing a lot of money. As long as I have the gear my money is tied up in the gear, but it should be a wash if I turn around and sell it. From that viewpoint it is not much different than the house I live in except the house is a 'necessity.'
I must agree with your theory. I too buy only higher end gear but I buy it all used. I haven't bought a piece of gear that I couldn't at least get my money back from. As far as the original topic about amp wattage vs. cost I feel that quality is more important than quantity. I've been gigging all summer with my 20 watt Soldano and it's been great. All but one of my shows have been large outdoor gigs and the amp is always miced. Twenty watts is more than enough for a reasonable stage volume and it allows me to overdrive the power tubes at a tolerable level while still being able to hear everyone else. I've had the one hundred watt Marshall half stack and I will never go back. Yes, for the price of an 18 watt DR. Z I could get a hundred watt stack but how often can you actually use all of that wattage to its full potential. I have enough trouble hearing vocals in the monitors as it is. A huge amp does look cool though.

[bigoldron]

I must really be a cheap sob, because I can't see paying more than $300 - $400 for an amp unless you are doing gigs.

And for small room playing, you could always get one of these.

http://zvexamps.com/amp_view.html

I'm a cheap SOB also, but if I had the dough, I'd probably find a justification for a more expensive amp, but I can't see those boutique's that run over $1,000.

BTW, THAT ZVEXAMP IS TOO COOL!!! MY GAWD, THAT THING RAWKS!!! :rockon: :dude: :AOK:

Wait a minute, I just saw the price - not too cool - but it's still impressive! :AOK:

[sunvalleylaw]

Outta hand by my standards means nothing to someone with more disposable income. The market would tell us that if they are selling well enough to support the manufacture of them, they must not be out of hand.

Re: the current fad, I bet it is like craft or micro brews. They go in and out of style with the trendy folks formerly known as yuppies, and when the yups move on to red wine or martinis or whatever, only the strong survive. The yuppie players that just want something that is "the best" to have in their rec room will support a few of these companies while it is trendy, and when it is not, only the strong will survive. ( EDIT: The above does not imply anything about any one who participates here. A musician looking for a quality product that sounds right to him/her is not the same as a yuppie buying because of being caught up in the current buzz. My point is that some companies will fail if they are not the real thing, both from a product point of view, and a business model point of view, when the buzz tapers off. ) (EDIT AGAIN: I am regretting throwing out a label like "yuppie". I guess if someone with significant means who is less careful with it than I am throws their money toward guitar equipment, who am I to judge? I still think only some of the bootik amps/other equipment will survive when those folks move on).

I would spend bigger dollars on a higher end amph if I had it, though I would probably go for a more known quantity than a really small bootik for the same money. My Grandma always said about furniture, buy a good piece once and use it a long time, rather than one you are going to have to replace in a few years Re amps, if I had the dough, I would go as bootik as something in that H&K line you bought, which is out of my 2 -3 hundred used amph price point currently. (special closeout that I missed set aside). I would also consider a 22 watt Fender, or even a Bassman.(bigger, I know). Also, if I had the dough, I would go at least a Martin D-28 (Maybe HD-28V) in acoustic guitar land. I figure I would play it forever, and pass it on to the kids or sell it way on down the line for pretty good value. But for now, I have to just get close enough with less expensive guitars and amphs that get me the better part of the way there.

[Bloozcat]

A good case in point about less expensive amps that still deliver the tone...

The Epiphone Blues Custom 30 amp I own cost $499.95 new, delivered (now $549.95). Although it has a circuit board rather than an eyelet/turret board, it's layed out well none-the-less. With a full complement of 5-12AX7 pre-amp tubes, two 5881 power tubes, and a tube rectifier (5AR4), it has almost everything the boutique amps have. Add to that the 2-12" speakers it comes with (which are very well voiced for this amp), the 15 watt class A/30 watt class AB switching, and it makes for a very attractive package. The more I've played with this amp in the last year +, the more respect I have for the design and the value it represents. OK, so I replaced all of the tubes with better ones to really enhance the potential of the amp, but it is still waaay cheaper than a 15 watt boutique amp.

And, if you like, it will definitely rattle the windows....on the house next door...:D

[M29]

You can get a GDS 18 watt Marshall clone in kit form for 800.00 without the head cab. It is the early Marshall sound and probably the truest amp of the early Marshall out there. Different model Marshall's have different sounds, you might be looking for a high watt Marshall sound. Here is a pretty good example of a GDS 18 watt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T6rWKMBSbU I don't know what type distortion you are looking for.
Just a thought. I would have recommended my GDS example but I don't play good enough to show anything off :thwap:
It is not hard to build a kit, there are instructions included. Just take your time and be very neat. Just a thought.
M29

[birv2]

As a respected local pro told me, "It's all about getting the best sound with what you have." He gigged for some time with a Peavey Bandit.

If you can afford a $4,000 amp, more power to you (though I WILL be insanely jealous:) ). I'm playing a Pro Jr and dreaming of one day getting a Deluxe Reverb.

As to whether it's getting out of hand... if the market supports it, I guess it's not.

btw, how much was that Nanohead?

Bob

[sumitomo]

Everyone has good points and when you really think about it and compare the price to some kit prices and have put a kit together (or failed at putting a kit together)there is alot of time in building a point to point amp and labor is costing more and more in these parts lately and as gas prices go up parts will cost more and more.Sumi:D

[Bloozcat]

We're only just beginning to see some off shore manufactured point to point amps (eyelet/turret board, that is). Don't be too surprised if you start seeing point to point wired amps coming in from places like Korea and China (it's already started in Korea). It could have the same effect on amp prices as it's had on guitar prices, and that will no doubt be good for us.

[tot_Ou_tard]

I think it's nuts.
But a yard full of strats is just right, Goldilocks. ;)

[Spudman]

But a yard full of strats is just right, Goldilocks. ;)

Now you're getting where I'm coming from wise one.;)

[Plank_Spanker]

"I think I'll blow $2,000 on an amp that wont even vibrate ants off a mirror."

Signature material, perhaps? :D

I don't think the entire low wattage amph market is off the hook - but it is assuming a certain cachet.

A real player, pro or not, is going to buy an amp that sounds and plays good. If a $4K amp or a $400 amp does it for them, more power to them.

Just don't get me started on the "Class A" marketing BS.........................:D

[ShootTheGlass]

stay home and ride the couch instead. Much cheaper and you can eat while you ride too.


Thats the quote of the week right there.

I think its all about disposable income. I know Im of the frame of mind, "have money, will spend" once Ive paid the bills.

Ive still to get a really great amp, but for just now, the two amps I have plus guitar rig do just fine. :)

[beachhound]

As I said to my wife, "it's not that I need any of this. I want it" What I didn't say was that what I want today I will trade, sell or at least not want, once I see the next thing I have to have. It's simply a gear slut thing (along with a little add). Ohhhhhh.........shiney and it's only a quarter watt!!

[R.B. Huckleberry]

Well, I own one of the amps reviewed: the Dr. Z MAZ 18 NR ('cept I have a head & seperate cabinet setup). For what I got, and the build quality (which I am hoping equates with longevity), I think $1199 was a steal. As for the wattage: 18 watts will strip the paint off the walls when cranked. With the MAZ, if I dime the volume & crack teh Master at about 7 o'clock...I can hit 94 decibels (as measured with my handy dandy decibel meter).

In fact, I just ordered an attenuator tonight because I wanna get power amp crunch & keep my hearing.

[Spudman]

Ohhhhhh.........shiney and it's only a quarter watt!!

lol That is funny. :rotflmao: I can picture Golem saying that or a talking cartoon crow...or plenty of guitar players. This could be signature material for sure.:D