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jpfeifer
May 26th, 2006, 07:01 AM
I hate to rag on any guitar brand. Honestly, I've always wanted a Gibson and I'd still like to add one to my collection some day. But, I saw something last night on my visit to Guitar Center that has made me take notice again of Gibson and their ongoing quality issue.

Last night, I decided that I should try some of their custom shop Les Pauls just for fun. I pulled out a nice LP Custom (Tobacco Brown Sunburst) off the rack and played it for a while. Nice guitar, a custom shop model even. It was about $3000 too. Then I started examining the guitar neck. The glue joint around the set-in neck was cracked. You could actually push on the neck by the headstock and watch the glue joint whould flex as if the glue had dried out or something! I couldn't believe it. This shouldn't be happening on a custom shop guitar from ANY brand.

Then I picked up a beautiful black LP, also from the custom shop. I started examining the neck, etc. I found a bunch of areas on the back of the headstock where it the finish was not smooth at all, very rough. It looked like someone did a half-*** job of sanding the guitar then slapped the finish on and called it done. This is supposed to be a custom shop guitar and it costs over $3000. What's the deal?

I love Gibson's guitars and I want to own one. But this kind of thing scares me to the point of making me look for alternatives. If I was to ever put out this kind of money for a guitar, I want that guitar to be worth the money and not some headache that I'm having to fuss over as soon as I buy it. There are some good guitar companies who are still delivering quality for the money, but right now I don't think that Gibson is one of them.

-- Jim

Robert
May 26th, 2006, 08:14 AM
That is terrible, Jim. For that kind money, get a Suhr instead - the quality there is unbeatable. I don't think there is such a thing as unhappy Suhr guitar owners.

jpfeifer
May 26th, 2006, 10:11 AM
Hi Robert,

Yes, I could believe that Shur guitars are great quality.
Another brand that seems to consistently deliver high quality is Hamer USA, and you can buy their stuff for about half the price of Gibsons depending on the customization you want. I've heard the same thing about Baker guitars too. It's funny how many people on the Hamer forum make the claim that Hamer does Gibson better than Gibson does.

It's really a shame. I've lusted after a 335 for years now. Gibson designed some of the best guitars ever made. Why have they let their quality slip so much is beyond me. But worst yet, why are they charging so much for guitars that shouldn't be passing the final inspection? It seems that they only care about selling their brand name. But I don't buy guitars to hang on the wall, I buy them to play and I expect them to last.

-- Jim

6STRINGS 9LIVES
May 26th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Hi Jim had to respond to your post , i agree with you regarding the lack of quality control at gibson , 3000.00 for sloppy workmanship is a hard pill to swallow.It goes without saying that gibson is well past its golden age , personally i believe that the best guitars being made on the planet are being made in japan and have been for some time.. I wont comment on guitars or brands that i have not played , but i can say that tokai make absolutely brilliant gibson copies , their "love rock" les pauls are without a doubt the equal of any gibson made in the last 25 years , the japanese dedication to quality and drive to out american the americans is the determining factor , I have a tokai love rock les paul made in japan in 84 gold top with p-90's set neck and it is amazing and i will not part with it .. Gibson for a time had a japanese brand called orville that were consistently better than their american cousins , i did have an opportunity to play one , a les paul custom version , again it was a quality piece with great feel and respectable tone even in stock form. But the tokai's which were made in japan are fast becoming a hard comodity to find , players and collectors alike love them . Ibanez has for years made excellent quality instruments , i have in the past owned several including a 84 roadstar ii which i still have ,love that blue finish and the thing is light and easy to live with for a 4 set night . Fender japan makes the best fenders anywhere , their not for export extrad versions of strats and teles are easily comparable with anything the fender american custom shop has ever produced , i have a bunch of non export japanese fenders as well as a couple of vintage american fenders , the japanese guitars are flat out amazing , granted they do come from the factory with american custom shop pickups and electronics and hardware , but combined with a total dedication to build quality and a reverance to the originals that the japanese craftsmen take very seriously , you get a guitar that someone has obviously taken great pride in assembling at thousands of dollars less than the american counterparts .. if you are interested i have information and experience in dealing with several fine shops in japan who can deliver a guitar to your door in 3 days , they take obvious pride in doing business , a refreshing change from the level of service and quality we seem to have become accustomed to . .. oh yeah tokai makes a killer 335 .. regards 6S9L

Robert
May 26th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Yes, Tokai are great guitars - I almost bought a great strat copy 10 years ago. I should have! A store where I lived in Sweden were Tokai addicts, and had several cool models. I remember the Strats the most. Excellent stuff.

duhvoodooman
May 26th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Jim,

Much like you, I had wanted a Gibson LP for years, but was discouraged by the prices. Even the used ones were very expensive. So I started to look into the Epiphone LP's. Of particular interest to me was their "Elitist" series of instruments, made in Japan by master luthiers. As I read about them, I kept on coming across owners who compared them to Gibson LP's that they had owned or played, and experiences like the one you described kept popping up on the Gibson instruments. I wonder if they have enjoyed such popularity and prestige for so long that they've just gotten sloppy on quality control.

In any case, I read rave after rave about how great the Epi Elitist LP's were, and I must say that I'm totally satisfied with the Standard I bought. The workmanship is absolutely flawless. About the only thing that didn't blow me away were the stock p'ups (USA made), which were decent but just not up to the level of the rest of the guitar. So I've replaced them with a set of Seymour Duncan's and I have an LP to die for. So do yourself a favor and check out the Epi Elitist line. The Standard model I have is no longer available, but you can get the Custom or the '57 Goldtop models for $1100. That's a heckuva lot cheaper than you'll pay for an "iffy" quality Gibson!

SuperSwede
May 26th, 2006, 01:59 PM
Strange... It seems like not too many years ago that Gibsons were to be found in the hands of school kids here, a couple of my friends had LP´s and SG´s (I had a Standard ´73) and even though they were a bit pricey they were at least possible to buy for a dedicated young guitar student. These days it seems like many Gibson purchases are for investments, and not to get a high quality instrument (which they dont seem to be anymore according to Jim´s testimonial) to play on.

Katastrophe
May 26th, 2006, 02:22 PM
With as many Gibbys as they sell (along with Epis and related brands), for $3000.00 Gibson would be able to hire someone to just sit and inspect guitars all day.

By the way, if anyone from Gibson reads this post, I'll be happy to volunteer my services, and you don't even have to pay me. 2 Gibson guitars a month would be fine.;) :DR

jpfeifer
May 26th, 2006, 02:48 PM
I'm with you there Katastrophe! ...
I would love that job!

The thing that I find so irritating is that I can really tell that the Gibson's are built with high quality wood and components. When I picked up those LP's and looked at the woods in the guitar, I could tell that the quality was there in the materials. It's really a problem with the workmanship more than anything else. They just need to hire some skilled builders to put them together the right way and be more selective about the ones they ship before they put that $3000 price tag on it. Guitars are not easy to build, ... here's a great video that shows some of the detail that goes into making them. I saw this one on the Hamer forum. Listen to the detail that these guys have to go through to make them right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wicSQKLVNs


-- Jim

Nelskie
May 26th, 2006, 04:39 PM
You know, the fact that we're here at this forum discussing alternatives to buying the genuine article should be proof enough that newer Gibson guitars, Les Pauls especially, aren't being looked upon as desirable high-quality instruments - esp. these days. For $3,000 bones, quality should be an absolute given, and as Jim has pointed out, it's not. Which is why Gibson's high-end business is floundering. There are other companies doing it WAY better for WAY less, including their sister company Epiphone.

ZoSo65
May 26th, 2006, 06:37 PM
Just curious, has anyone looked at an SG?
I was wondering if they have the same problem? I was thinking about getting one this summer, but now I'm possibly thinking Eppi SG.

Thanks

Spudman
May 26th, 2006, 06:52 PM
6S9L
You make some great points about Gibson's lack of quality and Japanese guitars being so good. I wholeheartedly agree. I currently have 4 Japanese Ibanez guitars and they are really great. Their Korean manufactured models are very good too. I think I have 3 or 4 of those too.

Japanese Squires are very good too. They are quickly becoming pricey and harder to find. I have one of those from 1981 and it's a very solid quality instrument.

Also, another brand that makes high quality versions of the Les Paul is Dillion. Although they are Korean they have many well known endorsers. http://www.dillionguitars.com/
These can be had for the $400-$700 price range.
I have one of these in black pearl with a neck humbucker.
http://www.dillionguitars.com/guitar/electric/DP/DPT100/index.html

Robert
May 26th, 2006, 08:24 PM
Dang Spudman, how many guitars DO you have?

My wife complains over my 7 guitars. It's nothing. I want 70.

I never had a Gibson, and I don't think I'll get one any time soon. The Epi seems to be a great way to go.

One of my students have an SG, and it's quite a good one, but he said he paid a thousand for it used. I could get a brand new quality guitar of a different brand for that price, but... Gibson is Gibson.

(By the way, Gibson make some great amps too, I should start a new thread about those)

Spudman
May 26th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Dude. Stay on topic. It's not a quantity thing, it's a quality thing. :p







Less than 50.

Tone2TheBone
May 30th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Today I spent an hour at our local Guitar Center with an employee/friend of mine there playing various Gibson Les Paul Standards and several Custom Shop Reissues through a sweet Peavey Classic 30 amp (finally got to try one of those - great amp Nelskie). I inspected and played every CS Reissue they had...an R9, 2 - R8s and 2 1960 Reissues and I couldn't find one thing wrong with either of them. Fit and finish were excellent, just beautiful looking and sounding guitars as anyone would expect. All played and sounded as good as their price tag. With the exception of the '59 Reissue the '58s and '60's were priced at $2,600 roughly. The '59 was priced at $4,500.

The Standards I played and looked at were in good shape too. About the only thing I didn't like about a couple of their Standards was the cut of wood they used on the maple tops but that's about it. Other than asthetics they seemed to be made really well. No cracks, dings, finish issues...nothing. One Standard had one Kluson tuner set at an off angle than the rest but you do find that on other LPs anyway...even real '58s - 60's. I picked up but did not play any of the Classics. They didn't have any obvious problems other than the stock ugly green inlays that come on them.

After playing those guitars and looking around at other Gibsons I did find one Mahogany bodied Les Paul Special that had bad rosewood. Too dry and was faded. That caught my eye right away...but the most expensive ones were all wonderful. I guess stocks vary from store to store....

jpfeifer
May 30th, 2006, 01:50 PM
Hi tonetothebone,

Yes, I would expect that the quality does vary from shipment to shipment.
I'd heard from one guy at GuitarCenter say that they actually have the option to ship back guitars to Gibson that show up with any quality issues. Maybe the GC that I visited hasn't been inspecting theirs very well before they put them out on the floor.

-- Jim

Tone2TheBone
May 30th, 2006, 02:04 PM
Jim - Yeah that sounds like it might be the case. The GC we have here is a pretty good one from what I hear based on reports from other players in different cities. There's 3 guys that work there who play in working bands and know the equipment well. One of the guitar managers is real good about getting good stock on hand. When I get the chance I'll ask him about that LP Special with the dried out rosewood and see what he says. I'll bet he'll wince and say that was one they couldn't be without in the store as they only have that one in red and the other one in TV yellow. This is just guessing his answer.

If you really want a Gibson look around at other shops that have them if you happen to have a couple in your town. Right now our GC has reduced the retail on their Custom Shop Reissues and I really wish I had the money to snag one of them right now...but apparently they reduce them every year so...I can continue to wait and dream. :) PRS guitars still far exceed Gibson prices as do some Fender Custom Shop guitars so....all in all even though they're high dollar...I think it's fair considering how much the other guitars are. Remember you're also paying for a beautiful piece of furniture too! ;)

Plank_Spanker
September 29th, 2006, 11:07 AM
I personally think that the endless Gibson quality control debate has been bandied about for far too long. Gibson justly earned a bad rep in the "bad ole Norlin days", but that time has come and gone. I also believe that Gibson is held to a much higher apparent quality standard than most any other mass producer. Gibsons have the reputation as the premier American made guitars and they're held to intense scrutiny for it.

Does Gibson roll a clunker out every now and then? You bet - just like any other guitar maker. Does Gibson suffer overall from bad QC? No. I think that the quality of their guitars has been consistently good for some time now but, as with all other guitars, there are sometimes subtle differences even between like models.

I own two Gibsons, a 2001 Les Paul Studio Plus and a 2002 SG Supreme, and both of them are flawless and great performers. They both put a smile on my face every time I play them.:)

duhvoodooman
September 29th, 2006, 11:45 AM
I also believe that Gibson is held to a much higher apparent quality standard than most any other mass producer. Gibsons have the reputation as the premier American made guitars and they're held to intense scrutiny for it.
But isn't it fair that they are held to that higher standard, given the prices that they charge? When people pay a premium price, it seems reasonable that they expect premium quality. Just my 2 cents.... :D

Plank_Spanker
September 29th, 2006, 12:02 PM
But isn't it fair that they are held to that higher standard, given the prices that they charge? When people pay a premium price, it seems reasonable that they expect premium quality. Just my 2 cents.... :D

Oh, I agree, but it seems to me that even the most minute imperfection brings forth the cry of shoddy Gibson QC. You can find imperfections on any guitar if you look close enough. I guess that it's the price Gibson pays for being the standard bearer in the market.

Spudman
September 29th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Imperfections are the perfection.

Zen saying.

SuperSwede
September 30th, 2006, 08:49 AM
"Only mediocrity can be trusted to be always at its best." - Max Beerbohm

Here we go again Spud :D

tot_Ou_tard
September 30th, 2006, 09:27 AM
I've heard good things about Heritage as well. Heritage was started by Gibson employees who didn't want to leave Kalamazoo when Gibson closed down the Kalamazoo MI factory.

Anybody know how Heritage compares with, say, Hamer?

The Hopi's put an imperfection in the rugs they make so that the spirit can enter the rug.

Not a problem for me even *if* I had a PERFECT guitar, I can provide all the imperfection needed!

Spudman
September 30th, 2006, 09:48 PM
"Only mediocrity can be trusted to be always at its best." - Max Beerbohm

Here we go again Spud :D

Best is only an opinion. There is no best in mediocrity. It just is as is. :cool:


Round one to the king of potatoes.


I have run into more poorly finished and set up Gibsons at music stores than Epiphones. I wonder why that is?

Plank_Spanker
September 30th, 2006, 10:06 PM
I wouldn't be too quick to blame a showroom floor setup on Gibson. The whole "showroom floor thing" gives me the heebie jeebies:

All of those Frito infested hands hammering away at the guitars and twisting whatever knobs and screws they can

Months of snot and spit induced finish smears and haze

Rotten strings

A rookie "tech" doing the setups

I took a big leap of faith with my Gibsons - I ordered them sight unseen. When they arrived, I was comforted by the fact that the last pair of hands that touched my guitars was a Gibson employee. The finishes were sparkling and nicely done.

I agree with you and I've seen some pretty nasty looking Gibsons at times in the showroom. I wonder if a good restringing, setup and cleaning couldn't turn those frogs back into princes?

SuperSwede
October 1st, 2006, 03:04 AM
Round one to the king of potatoes.



"You're not obligated to win. You're obligated to keep trying to do the best you can every day." - Marian Wright Edelman

Spudman
October 1st, 2006, 09:53 AM
"You're not obligated to win. You're obligated to keep trying to do the best you can every day." - Marian Wright Edelman

You are not 'obligated' by any means to try to do anything. Life is as is.


I agree with you and I've seen some pretty nasty looking Gibsons at times in the showroom. I wonder if a good restringing, setup and cleaning couldn't turn those frogs back into princes?

I wonder too. If I was trying to sell a car I would surely make sure that it was clean and fit to drive. You would think expensive guitars would be the same.