Pentatonic secrets!

[ShortBuSX]

Okay, whats with all the secrets???
I dont get it, how come nobody ever just says that the pentatonic major and minor patterns are the same?
Ive got more than a half dozen books and it seems most teach the minor first...well Ive gotta blues book thats teaching me the major first...and to me it just seems easier to remember R,2,3,5,6,R than R,b3,4,5,b7,R :thwap:
Not that I could tell you what was the root and what was a 5th within each of the patterns Ive learned/remembered...but it just seems that it would(will) have been easier all along to have started with the major:thwap:

And though I glanced at it, but in one of my books I thought it recommended bending the 5 and b7(?) in the minor scale...what notes do you bend in the major?

Are there any other secrets thatll make life easier figuring all this out???
Are there any other secrets to the pentatonic?
Im gonna find them out sooner or later...you might as well come clean now!
:poke:

[Jipes]

Okay, whats with all the secrets???
I dont get it, how come nobody ever just says that the pentatonic major and minor patterns are the same?
Ive got more than a half dozen books and it seems most teach the minor first...well Ive gotta blues book thats teaching me the major first...and to me it just seems easier to remember R,2,3,5,6,R than R,b3,4,5,b7,R :thwap:
Not that I could tell you what was the root and what was a 5th within each of the patterns Ive learned/remembered...but it just seems that it would(will) have been easier all along to have started with the major:thwap:

And though I glanced at it, but in one of my books I thought it recommended bending the 5 and b7(?) in the minor scale...what notes do you bend in the major?

Are there any other secrets thatll make life easier figuring all this out???
Are there any other secrets to the pentatonic?
Im gonna find them out sooner or later...you might as well come clean now!
:poke:

It's all related to musical theory but quickly the major pentatonic scale of one key is the same than the minor pentatonic from the 6th degree of the scale

Looks complicated but it's very simple ;) You want to play in the key of A you can find exactly the notes of the major pentatonic of A by using the fingering of the minor pentatonic of F# which is the 6th degree of the major scale of A

It's of course true for every key, you just go one and half step lower from your root chord and use the minor pentatonic fingering and you have the major pentatonic of your Key

[beachhound]

Tequila. Works for me

[marnold]

My guess would be that the minor pentatonic is taught because it is used more frequently in Rock and especially Blues guitar. Also, usually the pentatonic is taught as a series of patterns on the fretboard rather than as degrees of the major scale.

I think the reason why the major and minor pentatonic are taught separately is because to understand that they really are the same patterns requires a basic knowledge of modal theory which most starter books don't want to (or really need to) get into. I remember when I got the Metal Method course. I looked ahead in the booklets and saw that he was "only" teaching us patterns for the minor pentatonic and Aeolian mode. Once I got to the level that deals with theory, I realized that the Aeolian mode patterns will work for any mode in any key. It all depends on the root and the position you begin with. (For example, if I don't move the A Aeolian patterns at all but play in the key of E, suddenly it is E Phrygian instead.) It's a very cool concept, but also hard for many to wrap their heads around.

As far as "where to bend" goes, that's a matter of personal preference. Different guitarists will tend to do things differently.

One of the big not-so-well-kept secrets of music theory is that a surprisingly large number of professional guitarists wouldn't know music theory even if a very large book of it were dropped on top of them. When I played bass, I knew how to play a 12-bar blues progression before I learned anything about it. I just had listened to 12-bar stuff enough that I instinctively knew where and when the chord changes came in without even thinking about it. When I played in a bluegrass band, I remember getting into a bit of an argument with our banjo player about it. The drummer had to step in and count it out for him to prove that I was right. I couldn't tell him why I was right, I just knew that I was.

[ShortBuSX]

I couldn't tell him why I was right, I just knew that I was.

I hear alot of this from a buddy of mine...it would just be so nice if everyone could communicate things better, but I get what youre saying...alot of people(like myself) just dont know theory.

I think you may have dismissed my bending the 4th and b7th a lil prematurely, for what "feels right"...its kinda like that blue note, it belongs somewhere specificlly. I mean bend a coupple of notes in the pent scale, theres a couple that just sound bad, Im pretty sure theres a reason for that.

Maybe my mistake in all this theory stuff is that Im trying to understand but it all seems so overwhelming, that Ive just gotta try and remember the stuff that isnt so difficult for me, work with that, and then try and take in more without getting discouraged...and thats really a challenge.

Im kinda frustrated with books, because I find they kind scratch the surface on a begginer level and then blaze right through the rest of the lessons and move on to riffs, with no real explaination as to why or even follow up with say the major pent. And almost all the books do this, so it really hard for me to move forward when Im just getting the same glaze over when it comes to the scales and theory.

Robert is rather convencing, and I have always found Mark Wein's posts/topics/page/lessons very helpfuls as well as useful, so I think Im gonna try his "Foundations" book out soon...it certainly couldnt hurt.

[warren0728]

IMaybe my mistake in all this theory stuff is that Im trying to understand but it all seems so overwhelming, that Ive just gotta try and remember the stuff that isnt so difficult for me, work with that, and then try and take in more without getting discouraged...and thats really a challenge.
same here....i really want to learn theory....but every time i start reading about theory i can feel my eyes glaze over and my brain go numb....i think for me it is going to have to be really really baby steps on theory....i'm hoping mark's book will help...

ww

[marnold]

I think you may have dismissed my bending the 4th and b7th a lil prematurely, for what "feels right"...its kinda like that blue note, it belongs somewhere specificlly. I mean bend a coupple of notes in the pent scale, theres a couple that just sound bad, Im pretty sure theres a reason for that.

Maybe my mistake in all this theory stuff is that Im trying to understand but it all seems so overwhelming, that Ive just gotta try and remember the stuff that isnt so difficult for me, work with that, and then try and take in more without getting discouraged...and thats really a challenge.
I really wasn't intending to dismiss your comment about bending there. What you said it quite true. My point, perhaps poorly stated, was that that's not exclusive by any means.

I think you hit it on the head in the second part. Take as much theory as can be useful to you right now. You don't have to get it all figured out and/or mastered today. Or tomorrow for that matter.

[ShortBuSX]

same here....i really want to learn theory....but every time i start reading about theory i can feel my eyes glaze over and my brain go numb....i think for me it is going to have to be really really baby steps on theory....i'm hoping mark's book will help...



I think you hit it on the head in the second part. Take as much theory as can be useful to you right now. You don't have to get it all figured out and/or mastered today. Or tomorrow for that matter.

Thanks guys:AOK:

I think its funny how Ive got all these books in kind of a rotation, I get stuck with one part and the move on to suppliment it with another book in the rotation...OR another NEW book.:thwap:

Hey, have you eve had somebody try and explain this stuff to you? In person?
For some reason I can only listen for so long before the learning process becomes detrimental to the remembering part...and then after a couple of minutes all you hear is:

"words...words...letters...numbers...flats...words. .."

[sunvalleylaw]

Here is a thread where I intended for folks like us to share notes (pun sort of intended) on learning some of this stuff.

http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=6848

My post and quote that starts it out hits right in there with what you are dealing with, SBX. The ear hears these blue notes and things that sound cool, but it helps to know a little theory too. My instructor started me out by learning what were the chord tones (the notes that make up the chord) for each chord, with the idea that you can't sound really bad if you are playing a note contained the in the chord being played. Then he also had me learn that when you are dealing with a I, IV, V chord progression, notes 1 (the root), 3 (relative third) and 5 (relative 5th) work well. Notes 4, 6 and 1 work over the IV chord, and 5, 7, and 2 work over the 5 chord. Then you can play with getting to said notes by bending, sliding, etc. eg., bending the 5 up to 1, etc. My instructor says note 3 needs to be fudged a little with a slide into it, a slight bend, or something, or else it can ring strangely sometimes. But use your ear there and see what you think. Sometimes, I really like it played straight up. Anyway, I am not advanced at all in this, but just think it is fun to talk about. Cheers!

P.S. Go to Mark Wein's site and watch some of his stuff, in order. It takes you through some things that bring it more to life. I think learning music theory is like learning a computer program. If I just read the manual, it is in one ear and out the other. If I can use it or experiment with it while I read about it, I just might retain a little bit.

[ShortBuSX]

Then he also had me learn that when you are dealing with a I, IV, V chord progression, notes 1 (the root), 3 (relative third) and 5 (relative 5th) work well. Notes 4, 6 and 1 work over the IV chord, and 5, 7, and 2 work over the 5 chord. Then you can play with getting to said notes by bending, sliding, etc. eg., bending the 5 up to 1, etc. My instructor says note 3 needs to be fudged a little with a slide into it, a slight bend, or something, or else it can ring strangely sometimes.

SEE! Thats what Im talkin about...its secrets like this that arent really in to many of these publications. I only recall seeing that briefly in the very beggining of this one book when I was trying to just remember the patterns, but it was so small that I couldnt find it again and was only going on a vague memory of what I thought Id read.

And for some reason Ive always been under the impression I could cheat the guitar by not learning theory, so its these kinds of "secrets" I find the most valueable to my learning process.

BTW Sunvalley, you post was very helpful...I'll be checking that topic out and adding to it real soon, Im pretty sure of it.:AOK:

[sunvalleylaw]

Adding this, learning the relative 3rds, 5ths etc. is the theory that seems overwhelming to me at first, and my instructor gave me this chart based on the minor penatonic that I just memorized:

1 - - - 3
5 - - - 7
3 - - 4
7 - - 1
4 - - 5
1 - - - 3


Add to that the chord tones of whatever chord is being played close to the position you are playing in, and you have quite a few notes to play with. Hope that helps.

[ShortBuSX]

Add to that the chord tones of whatever chord is being played close to the position you are playing in, and you have quite a few notes to play with. Hope that helps.

I never learned chord tones, BUT I seem to think if I learned triads thatd probably help get the ball rollin in the right dirrection.

[sunvalleylaw]

I never learned chord tones, BUT I seem to think if I learned triads thatd probably help get the ball rollin in the right dirrection.


Absolutely. Triads are essentially chord tones. To find chord tones on the fret board, here is one way I figured out using my lessons: see where the barre chords are if you were going to play a progression using barre chords. For Black Magic Woman, you are at fret 5 for the notes on the left side of the pentatonic scale. An Am chord is formed with a 6 string root barre there, meaning the first note barred on the 6th or low E string is a root note. Play the notes individually that ring when the barre chord is formed, those are the chord tones. Then you make a Dm, and do the same thing. Black Magic Woman then shifts over to a Gm, and your chord tones shift left of the pentatonic scale there, but you can still use them. Then experiment with using the I, IV, V chart above.

Carlos plays a lot of the solo work up at 11-13/14 and there are different formations of the relevant chords you can find in that neighborhood you can use to find chord tones.

[street music]

WARREN, I know how you feel. Theory is something that I've had very little of and understanding the way some of it is written , PUTS MY OLE MIND TO SLEEP FAST??:thwap: What's one to do ? I want to learn this stuff but I'm so tired in the evenings from work that it makes practice hard many evenings.

[ShortBuSX]

For Black Magic Woman...
Carlos plays a lot of the solo work...

OH!:thwap:
You had me all the way up until you mentioned "Carlos":thwap:

But since youve been so helpful try this<~~~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pT3OaV0g64&NR=1)


(Sorry to jack my own thread):whatever:

[just strum]

same here....i really want to learn theory....but every time i start reading about theory i can feel my eyes glaze over and my brain go numb....i think for me it is going to have to be really really baby steps on theory....i'm hoping mark's book will help...

ww

The idea is to read and understand first, then drink. Then again, maybe beachhound has the right idea
beachhound - Tequila. Works for me

[warren0728]

The idea is to read and understand first, then drink.
oops....guess i was going about it bass ackwards... :thwap:

ww

[sunvalleylaw]

OH!:thwap:
You had me all the way up until you mentioned "Carlos":thwap:

But since youve been so helpful try this<~~~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pT3OaV0g64&NR=1)


(Sorry to jack my own thread):whatever:

LOL!! Sorry ShortBuSX. Just an example I was trying to use to make the point. But I did know it is truly a Fleetwood Mac song. I enjoyed that post. :bravo:

[Jimi75]

My teacher always said that the biggest secret to pentatonics is a good phrasing so that people do not know at first that you just play pentatonics. It took me years to understand what he meant - back then he recommended to me Gary Moore's "Blues For Greeny".

Now I can understand what he heard and what fascinated him about the phrasing.

By the way, the minow major thing was aslo a trap for me and I missed good explanations in books.

;)

[jpfeifer]

I think that the best way to get into Music Theory is to start with some questions, or things that you're curious about in music. This is how it came about for me.

When I first started I just played the chord forms that I'd learned from books, or stuff I'd learned from other players and hacked my way through using the pentatonic blues scale for everything I played.

A bunch of questions kept coming up in my head, like ...
- Why does the blues scale sound good for some things and weird for other things?
- How do people know what chords to use when they write songs? (how do they come up with the sequece of chords they use, are these people genius's or is their some method behind this?)
- Why do some chords sound happy, and some sound sad, what's the difference between these?
- Why are there so many scales and what do people use them for?
- What makes up a chord anyway?

All this stuff was coming back to me over and over.

For me, it all started to make sense when I started to learn about Music Theory, or harmony specifically. When I started to understand chords, how they were made, how different types of chords sounded, how scales were related to chords, and how chord progressions were made it was like a light bulb went off in my head.

Music Theory is really just the explanation of how all these things work. If you understand how music works then you can do more things with it (it's like getting more tools in your bag of tricks that you can use). It also really helps if you like to write music, since you're learning the structure behind the music and how these different concepts affect the way the music sounds.

The trouble with a lot of Theory books is they approach it from a purely, almost scientific level to the point where it's really boring to try to learn. I haven't read Mark's book, but since he is a guitar player like us, he is probably taking a different approach and making it easier to digest, from a guitar player's viewpoint.

But no matter where you learn music theory (or harmony) from, take small steps and always try out the concepts with your guitar so that you know how each thing sounds. One of my teachers used to show me a concept, then play an example song where that concept was used. This really helped to make it more interesting.

-- Jim

[ShortBuSX]

Man Im really diggin all of these explanations and replies!:bravo:
Thanks!:dude:

[aeolian]

I want to take a stab at answering the question about what other notes you can play over a I-IV-V.

In a blues I-IV-V in C the chords are C7-F7-G7, the notes are:
C7 = C E G Bb
F7 = F A C Eb
G7 = G B D F

A lot of times a C minor pentatonic is played over the C major I-IV-v.
C minor pentatonic is:
C Eb F G Bb C
The reason this works is because all the notes in the C minor pentatonic
appears in one of the 3 chords of the C major I-IV-V (although some of them
may sound 'out' depending which chord is being played).

Note that there are other notes in the I-IV-V which is not in the C minor
pentatonic, since these are in the chords they will sound fine too played
over the chords. You end up with:

C Eb F G Bb C C minor pentatonic
D E A B Other notes in the C I7-IV7-V7 chords

Experiment a bit and you should get a feel how the other notes fit in. You can also do the same with a minor I-IV-V progression.

I'm no expert on theory, so if there is any misinformation let me know.

[sumitomo]

Im listening too,I put playing down long time ago because I couldn't make those notes sound good to me (hard to find the words)there was no life and as time goes on its getting better as long as I keep my hands on it.Sumi:D

[The_Shredinator21]

ok so the pentatonic minor is what i was trying to learn because i found no easy was to scale up the frets..... i wasnt sure which fingers to use where, nothin was really comfortable for me for the dozen times i triedit

(i probably should just practice lol but whatever)

does anyone have any tips on making it easy to scale it?
feel free to share those secrets:poke:

[Robert]

Hey this is a good thread! I missed it before because I was on holidays then.
Shred - do you mean what fingering to use when you say "scale it"?

My advice is to take it slow when you learn the scale. Figure out what fingering works for YOU. There is never just one way to play something, and the more you play, the more natural it will become.

Regarding the Eb note over a C7 - realize you are playing a minor third over a major chord (C7 has E and not Eb as its major third). Somehow, it just works anyway, because of the bluesy sound. Cool, in'it? Sometimes rules are meant to be broken.

[ShortBuSX]

does anyone have any tips on making it easy to scale it?
feel free to share those secrets:poke:

Learn these 5 patterns, take it slow, learn one pattern get it down and then move on to the next...just memorize all five of them.

These patterns are moveable, and youll notice that they fit together...these five happen to be in "G"...and you know this because the first pattern starts on "G"...if you moved this to the 5th fret itd be in "A"...7th fret would be "B"

Pattern 1
http://www.myguitarworkshop.com/Theory/Guitar_Pentatonic_Scales/pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor-in-all-position/1st-position-pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor.gif

Pattern 2
http://www.myguitarworkshop.com/Theory/Guitar_Pentatonic_Scales/pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor-in-all-position/2nd-position-pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor.gif

Pattern 3
http://www.myguitarworkshop.com/Theory/Guitar_Pentatonic_Scales/pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor-in-all-position/3th-position-pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor.gif

Pattern 4
http://www.myguitarworkshop.com/Theory/Guitar_Pentatonic_Scales/pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor-in-all-position/4th-position-pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor.gif

Pattern 5
http://www.myguitarworkshop.com/Theory/Guitar_Pentatonic_Scales/pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor-in-all-position/5th-position-pentatonic-box-pattern-G-minor.gif

Hope this is the kinda help youre looking for.