Frustrations playing with others...and advancing

[ShortBuSX]

Ive got several friends who play in a band, I go to all their band practices and gigs, I help out as much as I can, weather its setting up or breaking down as well as most all guitar string changes and setups/trouble shooting...all of this affords me the time to play along in a band environment twice a week, either before practice, in between songs, or afterwards...and sometimes I get to sit in when somebody is out. All of which is great...I dont know where else Id have this kind of opportunity, and I feel lucky in this regard.
I know Ive got things I need to work on, such as timing, rhythm, and playing along with accompaniment...skills that Ive had a hard time working on by myself.
BUT Ive got some frustrations to vent, that maybe yall could help me with or shed a lil different perspective.

Lately Ive been learning alot of blues...and then I come to them when Ive just about got all the pieces together. For example: Ive just finished learning Hoochie Coochie Man...I can play this one well, all the way through, even the solo. BUT nobody knows the damn song...I have to teach the drummer kinda what to play, and even then its not like anybody(myself included) can count the 10 bars in A before it goes to the chorus. Then while were in A, naturally everybody goes to D and then E, turns the song into something that loosely resembles "It Hurts Me Too" in A...and then Ive got nothing. I mean I can go along with it all and play "IHMT" in A, but thats not what Im playing and its not what Ive been working on!!!:thwap:
These are people that learn most everything by ear or from experience...when I play along, I actively TRY and learn what they are playing so I can play along with them...I just dont understand why my songs are more difficult for them?
And speaking of difficult, the songs that Ive learned are challenging to me, like "Message In a Bottle"...but a year and a half later, the bass player is the only one who bothered to learn it...or is the only one who can play along.
Roxanne is another! And that one aint hard, but it does use some different chord patterns...so one of them asks me, "what key is it in?"...hell I dunno the chords are too funky, you play by ear, you tell me, and how come you cant play along???
And why is it so hard for a drummer to play a shuffle along with a blues song? It doesnt sound very hard, I think I could do it...whats up with that?

And after all of this, at the end of the evening I get the good with the bad speech, "you know, youd be really good if you could get your timing down...you should work with a metronome more often." or "your playing is sometimes choppy like youre trying too hard to remember the song instead of feeling the rhythm", I usually get that with a new song Im working on...but who cares about my timing when nobodys playing along:thwap:

I find that the best time I have is when Im in the fold...where Im not leading the band, but then Im not really learning anything or dont feel like Im accomplishing anything.
Thanks for reading my aimless rambling rant...

[aeolian]

I am a member of a hobby band so I have some experience with your situation.

My first question about the band you sit in with is: do they have a system to learn new songs? If they do, and you want to try a song you want to play, you follow their system to introduce your new song. Obviously this only works if they are interested in even playing what you want to play. In my situation if someone wants to try a new song he is responsible for providing a copy of the song (usually an mp3), and at least a lyrics chart, better still a chord chart to go with it. Then we give the whole band a week or two to practice a bit on their own, then we play it together and start working out the details. Sometimes the songs are fun for eveyone and we work on it until we are competent and we then play it regularly. Occasionally a song will just not work for us and we drop it when working on it becomes a chore. Our bass player has been playing for 5 years. He knows his instrument and is decent with music theory, but not a whole lot about guitars or keyboards (we have both in our band). Over the last few weeks he suggested the songs "Play That Funky Music White Boy" and "Moondance" so I worked out the chords for the songs and we have worked on both. "Funky Music" is fun to play but the vocal range is tough on our singer; we tried it a third lower but then the rhythm sounds off because playing lower loses some of the treble bite of the funky groove. We haven't given up on it, but it will need some work. "Moondance" we just tried for the first time yesterday. I think it will come together for us quickly.

[ShortBuSX]

I am a member of a hobby band so I have some experience with your do they have a system to learn new songs?

Its pretty much stand around and watch/listen till you figure it out...like I said, most of them play by ear or from experience...one guy works off of paper. Im lucky if they are even able to hollar out chord names...and my one buddy plays mostly triads, so its even harder to follow him, but after a couple of years of watching him I pretty much know the barre chords associated with what hes playing(most of the time).

I just find it frustrating/humourous/ironic that nobody really plays along with me, for whatever reason, and then when its all said and done, they tell me I need to work on my timing...with a metronome. (one of)The drummer(s) has a hard time with a shuffle, but Im supposed to practice a shuffle pattern with a metronome? :thwap:

[Andy]

I've found that if some members are not interested in the song than they don't really try to learn or play it. You may have to find songs that everyone is wanting to learn and play.

[Spudman]

Unless someone is fronting the band and singing all the songs then just learn what you want to play AND learn how to sing it. Make the other guys follow along. Otherwise you have to go with what the singer wants to and can do.

If other members are just suggesting songs and putting all the singing chores on someone else then to heck with them. They are merely wimping out and passing the buck. The buck stops with the singer.

[tot_Ou_tard]

Ithey tell me I need to work on my timing...with a metronome. (one of)The drummer(s) has a hard time with a shuffle, but Im supposed to practice a shuffle pattern with a metronome? :thwap:
You should get a drum machine or a pedal like the Boss RC2 that has a shuffle pattern.

Not that this solves your problem with the band, but you can practice swing eigths at home alone.

[Justaguyin_nc]

I haven't a clue seeing I never been in a band...

But looks like aeolian has it right...

Even songs I know, I need a MP3 or cd to play with till I remember the beat etc..

I would think if someone wanted me to learn a cover..
they would provide a MP3/CD so I know what they are attempting..

The tab to the song and words would be very much needed to..

then they have it all..to practice on their own till the next session...

[Plank_Spanker]

all of this affords me the time to play along in a band environment twice a week, either before practice, in between songs, or afterwards......

This band you're hanging with has their own focus and direction. It's cool that they're letting you play some, but don't get frustrated by the fact that they aren't playing what you like to play.


It sure looks to me like you need to find some like minded musicians of your own - easier said than done, but not impossible. Find some guys to jam with and meet them halfway on the material. You will learn a lot and have fun in the process. Don't be too serious..................

[ShortBuSX]

Thanks for all the replies, sorry I didnt respond, I been sick pretty much ever since I posted this.


This band you're hanging with has their own focus and direction. It's cool that they're letting you play some, but don't get frustrated by the fact that they aren't playing what you like to play.


It sure looks to me like you need to find some like minded musicians of your own - easier said than done, but not impossible. Find some guys to jam with and meet them halfway on the material. You will learn a lot and have fun in the process. Don't be too serious..................

I think you hit the nail on the head, I reckon posting this topic made me think about it more, and I kinda came to the same conclusion. I think I may be out growing this and that the only way Im really gonna grow is to get my own thing going...Im sure its gonna take time to get my own thing started.
But I did put an ad on Craigslist looking for a blues band I can jam with or others seeking the samething....we'll see.
Till then I reckon I'll just keep practicing with my Loopstation, and I'll keep adding songs to my list.
BTW, while I was sick(home from work for 3 days) I got most of "Im Tore Down" memorized and down...even the lead.

[Plank_Spanker]

I think you hit the nail on the head, I reckon posting this topic made me think about it more, and I kinda came to the same conclusion. I think I may be out growing this and that the only way Im really gonna grow is to get my own thing going...Im sure its gonna take time to get my own thing started.

I've walked in those shoes before..............

Hopefully, you'll find a group of players that share your tastes and direction.

Keep us posted on how it works out.

[ShortBuSX]

Just so you know...Im not imposing on this bunch/band...theyre all really close friends(free labor tends to make them close) and they all talk as if they really want to help me, but this band does NO homework, they havent the good habits most of you have suggested...and your suggestions are noted and I will refer to them when Ive got my own lil jam goin on, yall made alot of really good suggestions(from experience)...and I appreciate the replies/support.

Like I said though, they really wanna help, if they didnt I wouldnt be there twice a week...but yall are right, theyve got their own focus...all I can do at this point(jamming with them) is to keep coming back with the same songs and hope that somebody(anybody) is a lil further than the last jam...I cant really come to them with sheet music and expect them to learn it...they dont even do that for their own material:thwap:
After your suggestions, Im kinda surprised they are as far along as they are, Im a lil surprised to see how unorganized they are in comparison to the rest of the world(yall).

And another thing, I dont wanna seem ungrateful, these guys have helped me alot and I appreciate that...I just wanna keep moving forward. Im suddenly learning quite rapidly...and I just need an outlet to try these songs out on.

[Plank_Spanker]

Just so you know...Im not imposing on this bunch/band...theyre all really close friends(free labor tends to make them close) and they all talk as if they really want to help me

I never thought you were imposing on them for a second.

[Katastrophe]

Yep, you definitely need to do your own thing. Ask the guys in the band if they know anyone (or know anyone that might know anyone) that shares similar likes / dislikes.

[ShortBuSX]

I never thought you were imposing on them for a second.

No no I didnt think you did, I was just worried that maybe thats how my posts had come acrossed...I guess maybe that was my own interpretation after re-re-reading what Id typed previously.
But even if I didnt play guitar, I think Id probably still be there twice a week...its just so much fun watching them jam and work out tunes. Besides all that, watching them helps satisfy my tinkering 'jones'...Im like a vulture just waitin for something to break or tweak out, "Ive got it! I'll fix it...just keep playing." And Im pretty sure they like the fact they have a built in tech/roadie...and there have been nights where Ive walked home with all the tips in the jar:AOK:

And Ive gotta say, its also nice when I go over there, and theyre on break and they throw song requests at me.

You know, how sometimes you/we tend to beat ourselves up on our slow moving progress...maybe I was being pesimistic. I have had some really great moments playing guitar along with them...most recently Ive been getting to play that intricate rythmn to "One Way Out"...it feels pretty damn nice to be able to jam along to a full band(drummer and percussion)...and it still feels pretty darn good even when I flounder...and that happens a lil more frequent....typin this stuff out has really helped me sort this out, thanks guys! ...now Im thinking I need to practice more myself, maybe theyre discouraged with what Im bringin...hmmm.

Whatever the case, Ive got much to think about and learn....thanks again!:AOK:

[ShortBuSX]

I dunno how or why it happened, its like somebody read this topic, it was just that strange...I went to my buddies' band practice the other night and a couple of them approached me and offered to meet me there Thursday to work with me on some of the songs Ive been working on:AOK:

Im going to heed the advice given here and bring as many learning aids as I can, sheet music, mp3s and whatnot.

Thanks yall :beer:

[ShortBuSX]

Plans changed and I got to jam with them last night. It was fun, yet discouraging all at the same time. I feel like I need to dumb down my song selections for anybody to actually play along...not that my songs are tough, its just that blues is less popular than other genres, they arent all that familiar, even if they are willing. Although I did burn a CD of the songs Id been working on that Id like to work on together with them, but my sheet music was dismissed...but I get it, others learn differently, thats alright.

But I did get to work on several of the songs Ive been working on, it was nice playing along with the others...I dont know exactly why I got so discouraged, but it was difficult and it didnt come up all roses either.
We plan to try again next week...I spotted a few of my weaknesses and plan to work on those in the meantime.

[aeolian]

It may not be the perfect start, but at least your experience is positive, right?

When you say "dumbing down", do you mean that you have to leave out some of the intricacies of the songs in order to play through? Did the songs sound good to you, or if it doesn't, what is missing? In my hobby band, fortunately all of us are quite receptive to inputs to make the song better. For example, if our ears tells us that we are not together, we discuss it and figure out the problem. We make suggestions as to what some of us should play in certain sections of certain songs. One common problem is songs that has a fadeout at the end, since that is not so easy to do playing 'live.' So many times we spend time on working out a suitable ending. We are not perfectionist, but we do want to improve how we sound.

[ShortBuSX]

When you say "dumbing down", do you mean that you have to leave out some of the intricacies of the songs in order to play through?

Yeah kinda...like "Im Tore Down" for example, its like an intricate rhythm(kinda, not really) but it doesnt have a bunch of chords drvinng the guitar rhythm...and then the bass player is almost annoyed that were playing the same part, not realizing that if he gets the rhythm down then I can move on to the leads riffs over the top and that Id join him after each riff.

My rhythm(or lack there of) was also frustrating, but the drummer was nice enough to point out the spots I need to work on...I tend to do a lil pause before my turnarounds. BUt because of this I was able to get more comfortable playing the rhythm of "Key To The Highway" along with others...but Ive still got alot more work on that one before Id be able to get expressive on that one.

I guess my major frustration is the reality of work thats involved...and it seems even more being the only guitarist with this project.

[aeolian]

I'm not familiar with the songs, but I did a search on youtube and now I have an idea what they are like.


Yeah kinda...like "Im Tore Down" for example, its like an intricate rhythm(kinda, not really) but it doesn't have a bunch of chords driving the guitar rhythm...and then the bass player is almost annoyed that were playing the same part, not realizing that if he gets the rhythm down then I can move on to the leads riffs over the top and that Id join him after each riff.

The Clapton version I heard on youtube is basically a 12-bar blues shuffle. If the drummer and the bass player holds down the shuffle rhythm the progression should be well defined by what the bass is playing, then it will leave the guitar open to play whatever melody over the top. Next time may be you can see if you can just play melody over their basic groove without worrying about any rhythm playing at all, if that is what you want to try.


I guess my major frustration is the reality of work thats involved...and it seems even more being the only guitarist with this project.

I have another suggestion if having only one guitarist is a problem, although it may complicate matters for you. I notice you have a loop station. During your session you may be able to loop you play rhythm to the drummer and bass player's backing one time through, then play solo guitar or sing over the top of the rhythm loop thereafter. Then it would be like you have more than one guitarist.

I share your frustration when I first started playing with others mostly because of my own inadequacy as a guitar player, but that is what pushed me to play better. It doesn't happen overnight, but you will see much better results if you and the group can keep at it.

[ShortBuSX]

I have another suggestion if having only one guitarist is a problem, although it may complicate matters for you. I notice you have a loop station.

Its really tough to get a loop in perfect time...its good enough for me at home, but once you get a drummer or bass player playing along, they soon notice the loops imperfection.


I share your frustration when I first started playing with others mostly because of my own inadequacy as a guitar player, but that is what pushed me to play better. It doesn't happen overnight, but you will see much better results if you and the group can keep at it.

You may have hit the nail right on the head.

[ShortBuSX]

BTW, I went over to my buddies' band practice last night...theyve got a festival they are playing next week, Im letting the rhythm guitarist gig my Deville and one of my Strats, so I brought it over for him to get acquainted with(his gear has gremlins) and Im also in the process of restringing all the guitars the band will be using, so I was returning one and picking up one. I watched them practice their set...they finished and then the lead guitarist started playing/singing one of the songs(Hoochie Coochie Man) Id been playing with the other 2 guys the night before(he wasnt there)...I sprung up and began playing along. His singing made knowing when to switch to the chorus all the much more easier(instead of counting out the 10 bars)...it was alot of fun and we did bout 3 rounds of solos on that song. And then I got to play "Tore Down" and he switched over to playing bass...worked out nicely.
Seems that sticking with it and not letting myself get discouraged is the key...new gear seems to keep me motivated too:rotflmao:

[ShortBuSX]

The band Ive been jamming with is playing a pretty large benifit festival today. http://www.harvestmusicjam.com/
Im pretty stoked as I get to play guitar tech and roadie tonight.
The band goes on @ 7:30, which I seem to think is a prime time slot.
They should do really well, theyve been practicing their asses off and their set sounds great!
I cant wait...this is gonna be sooo much fun!

[marnold]

The band Ive been jamming with is playing a pretty large benifit festival today. http://www.harvestmusicjam.com/
Im pretty stoked as I get to play guitar tech and roadie tonight.
The band goes on @ 7:30, which I seem to think is a prime time slot.
They should do really well, theyve been practicing their asses off and their set sounds great!
I cant wait...this is gonna be sooo much fun!
Sounds like a great time, ShortBuSX! Make sure you give us a full report!

[ShortBuSX]

You Karma lovers and fans of slapstick comedy will enjoy this:

Everybody rode together in a big caravan, each vehicle was loaded with gear and 2 people each, I had all the guitar amps and guitars...we get there and everybody was nervous, bout 2 hours before the show, so we started drinkin and horsin around...it was fun.
There was a lil side stage, so another lil acoustic band could play while the big stage was broke down and set up.
The stage was a scaffold type that was bout 3 1/2 - 4 feet off the ground, and to the right of the stage was a lil ramp, but our cars and all of the gear was on the left side...and a tiny lil roped off walkway behind the stage...so we were setting the stuff on the edge of the leftside of the stage and somebody would come across and take it from there. The guitars and amps were the last onstage...and once my amp(the Deville, remember) was one stage nothing else was left, so I decided to climb this small 3 1/2 - 4 foor scaffold and just carry the amp to where it was gonna be setup.
So as Im climbing, I get to the top, I get one foot on stage and I go to throw the other over...and suddenly my body goes top heavy and I begin to topple off the side of the stage...as Im grasping for straws I grab the 4x10 Deville...and it falls off the stage with me!:thwap:
I have no real idea what happened when we fell...but I sprung up quickly(although slightly embarrassed)...everybody was asking if I was alright, but I ran over to the amp...and it was fine! A couple of minor nicks in the tolex was it! Plugged her in and she was perfect!:AOK:

The band did very well...they were the loudest(in a good way) most rockin band there...aside from them it was a very mellow, mostly acoustic driven festival, with 2 stages. I think their set was perfect for the show and the crowd really liked what they were hearing.

All in all I learned alot from this event, this wasnt the first event Ive helped them out with, but I did learn more from this one...and a couple days later, given time to think about it all, Im actually embarrassed with the way I carried myself and in the future I plan on doing it sober, because weather Im in the the band or just helping out, I am representing them...and I need to be professional, as well as safe! And just so you know, nobody complained, the band was very appreciative of my efforts...even falling off the stage wasnt all that embarrassing(would have been if the amp blew up!)...IM just glad everything worked out and that everybody had a blast.

For me, the highlight of the evening was seeing this(mah amp):
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w10/ShortBuSX/100_2172.jpg

Mic'd at full concert level!!!:dude:
I dunno if I'll ever get it that loud myself!

[Spudman]

Its really tough to get a loop in perfect time...its good enough for me at home, but once you get a drummer or bass player playing along, they soon notice the loops imperfection.

Really? I don't seem to have that issue although I've heard others mention it as well.

I think a looper helps to point out the rhythm section's short comings. The loop is pretty exact but their tempo goes all over the place. I can play with a machine very easily or a drifting rhythm section but it seems they can't play together and with a machine. I worked for years playing in a band that everything was midi synced and clicked. No problems for me. I love the looper.

If you end up being the only guitarist consider working in the looper more so that everyone can get used to it. The problem usually is that they can't hear it well so it might need it's own separate amp.

[ShortBuSX]

Really? I don't seem to have that issue although I've heard others mention it as well.

I think a looper helps to point out the rhythm section's short comings. The loop is pretty exact but their tempo goes all over the place. I can play with a machine very easily or a drifting rhythm section but it seems they can't play together and with a machine. I worked for years playing in a band that everything was midi synced and clicked. No problems for me. I love the looper.


I think youve mastered the loop though, Im still new to this and so are my friends...as of now, my loops are only as good as my timing on hitting that left pedal a 2nd time to stop creating the loop.



But I fall off a 4 foot stage with my amp...and thats it???
Love me or hate me...thats it? Really???

[Spudman]

But I fall off a 4 foot stage with my amp...and thats it???
Love me or hate me...thats it? Really???

Oh, sorry. Um, are you all right? Your hands seem to be working because you can type. Can you still hold a beer? If not then we'll definitely spread some concern around.:D :beer:

[ShortBuSX]

Oh, sorry. Um, are you all right? Your hands seem to be working because you can type. Can you still hold a beer? If not then we'll definitely spread some concern around.:D :beer:

Well, I am a lil bruised, I dont know really what actually happened...somebody said I managed to save the amp on its way down, there was also a HUGE trailer hitch just below me...I dunno what happened, what I hit or what hit me...maybe I broke the fall of the amp, I dunno...Ive got a decent sized bruise on my back, my knee is a lil sore and my forearm is slowly bruising up.
But you are right, Im able to hold a beer and type(as well as play guitar)...aside from the bruising, its business as usual.
My comment wasnt dirrected at you so much, although you did reply...I was really fishing for sympathy for the amp...until today, Id never seen an amp take a fall or hit like that...and survive.

[sunvalleylaw]

Well I am glad you both were not injured. It is really cool the amp didn't break, but your safety is even better.

[marnold]

Heh, I was just going to comment that you got your "Spinal Tap moment" out of the way pretty early then! Your thought pattern at the time would probably would have been mine too: enough about me, how's the amp? I come from a long line of klutzes so while we may fall a lot, we do seem to land rather well.

[warren0728]

But I fall off a 4 foot stage with my amp...and thats it???
Love me or hate me...thats it? Really???
awww c'mon....you'll heal....the amp...not that could have been serious!! :poke: :rotflmao:

ww

[mannydingo]

You know, after reading of your ordeal, it almost sounds like you're going to form a band with your own set of bandmates or you're the one that's going to take over this band. You seem to have all your screws in place and your friends seem somewhat sloppy. I think they're just guys with good timing and few chops. Hmm, sounds a lot like me. They also have experience. The different musical taste seems an issue also. The only problem I see is your timing issue. My best friend tried for years to correct that problem and could not. He could learn the song exactly as it was supposed to go but when we tried to play together, it was impossible. You are going to have to address that issue and seriously. I don't know if the extent of the problem is like that of my friend's but you CANNOT play in a band with timing problems. I would rather have a mediocre or even entry-level guitar player that can play in timing than a guitar virtuoso that can't play in timing. I don't care how many flashy moves you can make with a guitar, poor timing means no-go.

[ShortBuSX]

You know, after reading of your ordeal, it almost sounds like you're going to form a band with your own set of bandmates or you're the one that's going to take over this band.

Nah, thatll never happen...I'll never be in this band, not that I wouldnt like to. But right now it is what it is, and thats a pretty damn good learning experience on multiple levels. I cant even begin to count the ways.


You seem to have all your screws in place and your friends seem somewhat sloppy. I think they're just guys with good timing and few chops. Hmm, sounds a lot like me. They also have experience.

They seem to speak an unspoken language and teir communication seems to work for them...IM just lucky if Im able to make out a couple of phrases, but Im learning.


The different musical taste seems an issue also. The only problem I see is your timing issue. My best friend tried for years to correct that problem and could not. He could learn the song exactly as it was supposed to go but when we tried to play together, it was impossible. You are going to have to address that issue and seriously. I don't know if the extent of the problem is like that of my friend's but you CANNOT play in a band with timing problems. I would rather have a mediocre or even entry-level guitar player that can play in timing than a guitar virtuoso that can't play in timing. I don't care how many flashy moves you can make with a guitar, poor timing means no-go.

Im always going to continue to learn songs on my own, the only way I know how(its tough for me at times) but I plan to continue to learn theory as well...but I find I do better when Im in the fold and not leading(for the time being)...my song selection isnt the most popular, but if I was in a band Id like to do something a lil different than the local live music scene already has.
Being in the fold and not leading also means Im able to find my timing as well...I can follow time, but I cant carry time(yet)...my loopstation is helping with my timing though, I just need to practice more.
I could go on a bit more, and realize Im not being defensive or anything, Im kinda just figureing out my strenghts and weaknesses...and this topic has really helped me sort out my issues, such as where I am, where I wanna be and how Im gonna get there...this topic has also made me grateful for the freinds and experience I get to share with them, and thanks for responding!:AOK:

[mannydingo]

You said "I can follow time, but I cant carry time(yet)". I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Maybe you speak a different language for me like your band does for you.:D Oh, and the music theory. I started playing guitar that way and very quickly left it. The reason music theory existed was because when a guy like Mozart or someone earlier than that, was making long, complicated masterpieces, he couldn't just record part by part like we can so he had to write them down so he wouldn't forget a part here and there he had already composed earlier for that same particular work.

Also, if those composers were writing a symphony, you couldn't just get a CD, MP3 or tape and distribute it out to the musicians, you had no other choice but to hand out the musical notation in written form. Musical notation is no longer necessary unless you are going to be writing for a symphony or a mega large band. I guess the only exceptions are a studio musician or live stand-in on call unless you're a prodigy and can hear something once or twice and know how to play it right away. There's nothing wrong with learning it though, you can't deny it's a plus. However, that's all it is in this day in age, a plus.

[ShortBuSX]

You said "I can follow time, but I cant carry time(yet)". I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Maybe you speak a different language for me like your band does for you.:D

If you and I were jammin together, I could follow your timing just fine...but you wouldnt wanna follow my timing so much, IM told Im rather free with the timing.


Oh, and the music theory. I started playing guitar that way and very quickly left it. The reason music theory existed was because when a guy like Mozart or someone earlier than that, was making long, complicated masterpieces, he couldn't just record part by part like we can so he had to write them down so he wouldn't forget a part here and there he had already composed earlier for that same particular work.

I need music theory for multiple reasons(AND you should too).
For me, I NEED to know WHY this goes with that, and why this doesnt...Ive always needed to know, if I dont know then I dont understand.
I also need it to communicate, plain and simple...its a language.

Seriosuly, if you show up at a jam, and the guy youre jamming with says, "this next one starts off on the 4 in the key of G"...I personally wanna know WTF hes talking about, and further more I wanna know what hes not saying...like how to(improvise a)solo over what he just said.
You cant avoid it forever, your lack of communication can only get you so far for so long...youre lucky if you can find a group of people who just "hear" or "feel" it all.

[mannydingo]

If you and I were jammin together, I could follow your timing just fine...but you wouldnt wanna follow my timing so much, IM told Im rather free with the timing.



I need music theory for multiple reasons(AND you should too).
For me, I NEED to know WHY this goes with that, and why this doesnt...Ive always needed to know, if I dont know then I dont understand.
I also need it to communicate, plain and simple...its a language.

Notice that your saying you "need" to know sounds like it's something you, personally, need to know. I'm not saying it can't come in useful but you would have to, out of coincidence, come across a band whose members ALL do everything by musical notation and theory.


Seriosuly, if you show up at a jam, and the guy you're jamming with says, "this next one starts off on the 4 in the key of G"...I personally wanna know WTF hes talking about, and further more I wanna know what hes not saying...like how to(improvise a)solo over what he just said.
You cant avoid it forever, your lack of communication can only get you so far for so long...youre lucky if you can find a group of people who just "hear" or "feel" it all.

Ofcourse I can understand when someone says that the next song is in B flat minor. That doesn't require musical notation. You can even know the terms for scales. For example, you may be told the lead for the next song is a mixolydian scale. I'm telling you, most guys that learned musical notation and its theory also know how to just play by ear. Also, most guys that know theory CANNOT, I know from experience, just start jammin' with a group of guys with songs they don't know. Yes, I have met the ones that CAN do it also. More-so, the vast majority of famous bands do NOT know how to read music. That is a fact. Once again, it is definitely better to know musical notation and as much theory as you can but these days it's not as necessary as you think. I actually encourage you to learn it, especially if you have the get-up-and-go to learn it. Once again, it's better to know it but YES, you can avoid it forever. The couple of times you will come across people you can't play with due to not knowing musical theory is miniscule in today's world.

[ShortBuSX]

I have very little desire to be able to read music(standard notation).

I also think you are making generalizations when in fact everybody is different.

And I personally, feel the need to know how everything works, in general, if Im going to be able to use it(whatever "it" shall be) to its fullest potential...I have a wanton need to know and learn.

I'll also admit that my way isnt an easy road...but I wasnt born with THE gift either. I reckon I could stand still and continue to do what Ive always done, but I feel this is the route for me to progress.

I will also say this too, I recently recieved a copy of Mark Wein's book "Foundations for Guitar". Its got a lil bit of standard notation in there(among other things), and it seems to explain it rather simply...I can see myself reading standard notation in the not so distant future...and maybe then I wont have to make excusses to myself as to how and why its not important.

And lastly, for all of those famous musicians who cant read standard notion...Im sure plenty of them wish they could, but that is an assumption on my part.

[mannydingo]

I have very little desire to be able to read music(standard notation).

I also think you are making generalizations when in fact everybody is different.

And I personally, feel the need to know how everything works....................I have a wanton need to know and learn.

I saw reading notation as your main objective. I was wrong. You are right that I'm making generalizations. That's because I believe the "general" public of musicians doesn't need all the theory. The more complex the music gets, the more beneficial it is to learn. You seem to be going in that direction. It can still be done w/o by most musicians, as I said, and that's where my generalization lies. Generalizing isn't always a bad thing to do. It's just another way of saying "the majority" Ofcourse, there are others who are the total opposite. I know we've covered the notation issue but I knew a girl who played piano great but could not do it if she wasn't reading standard notation. She could not play be ear.



And lastly, for all of those famous musicians who cant read standard notion...Im sure plenty of them wish they could, but that is an assumption on my part.

Your assumption is pretty much fact. They "prefer" to be able to read it. However, the learning involved for such a boring thing makes them not do it since it's so unncessary in today's world, as I mentioned earlier. What can I say, just call it my opinion. I think I'd better stop since I've hijacked this thread into a totally different topic. Sorry guys.

[Andy]

In this town it can be very necessary ,except we have yet annother quagmire, the nashville number system.

It's pretty much a requirement to get into the local union ect...

but not necesary for just gigging around town

[mannydingo]

In this town it can be very necessary ,except we have yet annother quagmire, the nashville number system.

It's pretty much a requirement to get into the local union ect...

but not necesary for just gigging around town

I can see where, in a certain city, the trend could start and then it becomes a necessity. You also said, it's not necessary to just gig around town. I've heard of a number system but a city specific "Nashville" number system? Geez, I feel sorry for out of towners coming in to play or moving into the city. They have to almost start all over again.:thwap: Once again, this is called Hijacking a thread. Even the thread starter has hijacked his own thread along with me. I'm trying to stop.:messedup: