Composing (in general )

[fensonpaulcaster]

I need some serious help with composing original music.

I'm in two fledgling bands just started.
On is thrash and one is a Post gunge/hard rock sorta thing.

I need help composing. I know scales, I'm good at improv, specially on the minor pentatonic and blues scales.

I just can't write music. I want to write like the red hot chili peppers or some thing like Switchfoot, like based on rhythm and then riffs spread out through out. I love how johnny Fruciante plays Rhythm, songs like under the bridge just shows his genius in rhythm.

How do you put together good and unique progressions?
How do you build off of them?

How do you write riffs that fit progressions?

I have on ok song I'm working on. Not really that great

I need some answers soon HELP PLEASE :thwap:

Thankya

[luvmyshiner]

The answer is 12. Actually, 12.5 to be more precise.:D

[warren0728]

The answer is 12. Actually, 12.5 to be more precise.:D
i thought it was 42.... :whatever:

[luvmyshiner]

i thought it was 42.... :whatever:

Dude, you forgot to carry the 3.:thwap:

[Algonquin]

Dudes... you're all waaayyy off.

The answer is... blowin' in the wind

[jpfeifer]

Hi fensonpaulcaster,

You're asking some good questions. It sounds like you want to understand more about how music is structured so that you can write your own tunes.

One of the best ways to go about this is to take a song that you like and analyze it. Try to understand why the chords work well together, why the bass line and rhythm guitar parts work well together, etc. This is how I got started on the same approach that led me to taking a bunch of classes in music theory.

What you're asking for is an understanding of how music is put together. This is essentially what music theory classes will teach you. Most colleges have music theory classes that will take you through this, although they may start with some concepts at first. There are lots of guitar instructors who will teach this kind of thing as well, which might be a better way to go if you're mostly interested in learning about more modern styles of music.

-- Jim

[fensonpaulcaster]

:thwap:
Hi fensonpaulcaster,

You're asking some good questions. It sounds like you want to understand more about how music is structured so that you can write your own tunes.

One of the best ways to go about this is to take a song that you like and analyze it. Try to understand why the chords work well together, why the bass line and rhythm guitar parts work well together, etc. This is how I got started on the same approach that led me to taking a bunch of classes in music theory.

What you're asking for is an understanding of how music is put together. This is essentially what music theory classes will teach you. Most colleges have music theory classes that will take you through this, although they may start with some concepts at first. There are lots of guitar instructors who will teach this kind of thing as well, which might be a better way to go if you're mostly interested in learning about more modern styles of music.

-- Jim


I don't know what the whole thing about the 12.5 and the 42 and all that is, but this one is making a good amount of sense to me.

I would love to take college classes on music theory, but college is still a few years ahead of me at that moment. I'm learning about structure of music at the moment; chord construction, scales, etc. I don't know if I understand how i'm supposed to understand why the chords sound good together, like how I go about that.

uhmm.. well lets see..

Ok take, doolin Dalton, by the Eagles. The chords are as follows haha:
A, F#m, A, F#m, A, A7, D, F#m, B, D, A, and then E.

I don't understand how these chords have any reason to sounding good together..
I understand some things like what DOESN'T sound good, lol. For instance, uhmm well lets see. an A diminished wouldn't sound good with an Cmaj7. In fact, I don't think an A diminished is any good in a progression, but only for improv.

The construction of progressions is mostly ompletely foreign, or at least hit or miss. I get simple ones, but nothing worth making anything out of.

UNless..
Hmm.. Do the chords sound good because of the scale? I think that if you pick out notes that sound good together from the scales, and stick with them with some other notes you can make a good progression. Tell me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound to awful crazy to me, or am I just oblivious to my sanity? haha :thwap:

[aeolian]

Ok take, doolin Dalton, by the Eagles. The chords are as follows haha:
A, F#m, A, F#m, A, A7, D, F#m, B, D, A, and then E.

I don't understand how these chords have any reason to sounding good together..

Jim's post points you in the right direction. If you understand some basic music theory as it relates to guitar you will find questions like the above much easier to understand. And it doesn't take many music lessons to learn this either; I think a good theories teacher can teach you this in 10-20 lessons.

Let me take a stab at the basics, starting with just the very basic. Every scale has 7 notes (disregarding sharps and flats for now), there is a basic chord associated with every note (a teacher will teach you how these chords are formed in a lesson or two):

The 1 note: major
The 2 note: minor
The 3 note: minor
The 4 note: major
The 5 note: major
The 6 note: minor
The 7 note: m7b5

The Doolin' Dalton example you gave is apparently in the key of A. The chords for the key of A are:

The 1 note: A major (plain A)
The 2 note: B minor
The 3 note: C#minor
The 4 note: D major (plain D)
The 5 note: E major (plain E)
The 6 note: F# minor
The 7 note: G#m7b5 (ignore this since the chord for the 7th note is seldom used)

Notice that the chords you posted for Doolin' Dalton are all found in this sequence except for the A7 and the B. The chord sequence establishes that the song is in A (or equivalently F#m).

Now the A7 and the B. The normal A extended chord in the key of A would be Amaj7, here A7 is used which would bring in the flat 7 sound. When you play the chords to this song you will likely notice that this chord will sound slightly odd; it is because it introduces a note that is not in this scale. Same with B, the normal 2 chord is a Bm, when you play a B here it adds the flat 5 to the sound, and it will also sound somewhat odd. But that is exactly why music is so fascinating. If you follow the 'normal' rules you can make excellent music, but if you want to add interesting elements to a song, modify the chords in the sequence and see what musical effect you get.

I've already gone on for too long, I hope this at least help your understanding a bit.

[evenkeel]

Good points from aeolian and jpfeifer.

My comments are not as profound or in depth.

1. At least in the beginning Keep It Simple. A I, IV, V chord progression can still take you a long way. Add a Minor II or VI. You don't have to make it complex for it to be good. A favorite singer/songwriter of mine is John Prine. I can't think of anyone who gets more mileage out of moon, june, spoon lyrics and a I, IV, V chord progression, but he's a damn genius at it. Different genre, but you could say the same thing of the Ramones.

2. Write what you know about. This applies to novels as well as music.

[fensonpaulcaster]

Jim's post points you in the right direction. If you understand some basic music theory as it relates to guitar you will find questions like the above much easier to understand. And it doesn't take many music lessons to learn this either; I think a good theories teacher can teach you this in 10-20 lessons.

Let me take a stab at the basics, starting with just the very basic. Every scale has 7 notes (disregarding sharps and flats for now), there is a basic chord associated with every note (a teacher will teach you how these chords are formed in a lesson or two):

The 1 note: major
The 2 note: minor
The 3 note: minor
The 4 note: major
The 5 note: major
The 6 note: minor
The 7 note: m7b5

The Doolin' Dalton example you gave is apparently in the key of A. The chords for the key of A are:

The 1 note: A major (plain A)
The 2 note: B minor
The 3 note: C#minor
The 4 note: D major (plain D)
The 5 note: E major (plain E)
The 6 note: F# minor
The 7 note: G#m7b5 (ignore this since the chord for the 7th note is seldom used)

Notice that the chords you posted for Doolin' Dalton are all found in this sequence except for the A7 and the B. The chord sequence establishes that the song is in A (or equivalently F#m).

Now the A7 and the B. The normal A extended chord in the key of A would be Amaj7, here A7 is used which would bring in the flat 7 sound. When you play the chords to this song you will likely notice that this chord will sound slightly odd; it is because it introduces a note that is not in this scale. Same with B, the normal 2 chord is a Bm, when you play a B here it adds the flat 5 to the sound, and it will also sound somewhat odd. But that is exactly why music is so fascinating. If you follow the 'normal' rules you can make excellent music, but if you want to add interesting elements to a song, modify the chords in the sequence and see what musical effect you get.

I've already gone on for too long, I hope this at least help your understanding a bit.


ok

well this seems to make sense..even though i still need to figure some of it out haha

thanks

[Andy]

I love how johnny Fruciante plays Rhythm, songs like under the bridge just shows his genius in rhythm.

Interesting,I brought this up in annother recient thread
you know he would listen to hendrix non stop,,even just certain passages he would listen to over and over and learn to play them perfectly note for note, the tone, the guitar ,everything ,,,almost obsessive about Jimi.

under the bridge is simply Fruciante's ode to riffs like castles made of sand, he's said this himself more than once .. so If you want to give credit or understand where he's coming from look no further than Jimi and his style of playing/rythem..ect it's all there.theres no mistaking it.

[fensonpaulcaster]

Interesting,I brought this up in annother recient thread
you know he would listen to hendrix non stop,,even just certain passages he would listen to over and over and learn to play them perfectly note for note, the tone, the guitar ,everything ,,,almost obsessive about Jimi.

under the bridge is simply Fruciante's ode to riffs like castles made of sand, he's said this himself more than once .. so If you want to give credit or understand where he's coming from look no further than Jimi and his style of playing/rythem..ect it's all there.theres no mistaking it.


Ok, and that definitely makes sense. I can see Jimi hendrix playing some of the things the Jf plays

[fensonpaulcaster]

Jim's post points you in the right direction. If you understand some basic music theory as it relates to guitar you will find questions like the above much easier to understand. And it doesn't take many music lessons to learn this either; I think a good theories teacher can teach you this in 10-20 lessons.

Let me take a stab at the basics, starting with just the very basic. Every scale has 7 notes (disregarding sharps and flats for now), there is a basic chord associated with every note (a teacher will teach you how these chords are formed in a lesson or two):

The 1 note: major
The 2 note: minor
The 3 note: minor
The 4 note: major
The 5 note: major
The 6 note: minor
The 7 note: m7b5

The Doolin' Dalton example you gave is apparently in the key of A. The chords for the key of A are:

The 1 note: A major (plain A)
The 2 note: B minor
The 3 note: C#minor
The 4 note: D major (plain D)
The 5 note: E major (plain E)
The 6 note: F# minor
The 7 note: G#m7b5 (ignore this since the chord for the 7th note is seldom used)

Notice that the chords you posted for Doolin' Dalton are all found in this sequence except for the A7 and the B. The chord sequence establishes that the song is in A (or equivalently F#m).

Now the A7 and the B. The normal A extended chord in the key of A would be Amaj7, here A7 is used which would bring in the flat 7 sound. When you play the chords to this song you will likely notice that this chord will sound slightly odd; it is because it introduces a note that is not in this scale. Same with B, the normal 2 chord is a Bm, when you play a B here it adds the flat 5 to the sound, and it will also sound somewhat odd. But that is exactly why music is so fascinating. If you follow the 'normal' rules you can make excellent music, but if you want to add interesting elements to a song, modify the chords in the sequence and see what musical effect you get.

I've already gone on for too long, I hope this at least help your understanding a bit.


OK..

But wait
Every scale has a different number of sharps and flats. And the C scale doesn't have any flats or sharps. I'm confused, but i think i kind of get it. There must be seven major (not in major like major minor like major as in importance) notes. Which would probably be the 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 13? The only reason I say this is because these notes seem to be used the most in chords. Or at least are the most usable?

I don't know yet, but I do know chord construction:

Major chords are made of the 1st 3rd 5th notes. Minors are like 1 b3 and 5

sevens are 1 3 5 plus the seven, I think cause then theres the Major 7. I don't know

[aeolian]

OK..

But wait
Every scale has a different number of sharps and flats. And the C scale doesn't have any flats or sharps. I'm confused, but i think i kind of get it.

You can use me for a music teacher, although I don't think I'm qualified to be one but I'll try.

You are confusing designation of key with the 7 notes in any key. Any key has 7 notes, which are the 7 I referred to in my previous post. There is a pre-defined tonal 'distance' between each of the notes, they are either halftone or whole tone; a halftone is the tone difference from, let say, fret 1 to fret 2, whole tone is the difference between fret 1 to fret 3. In a regular scale the tonal 'distance' between the notes is as follows (the number is the note order, and the <half> or <whole> is the tonal difference:

1<whole>2<whole>3<half>4<whole>5<whole>6<whole>7<half>1

So doesn't matter where you start on the fretboard, if you play successive notes based on whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half you get a scale in a certain key. If you start with a C on the fretboard and play this you get the C scale; if you start with a D and play this you get a D scale. Any scale you play this way is that scale without sharps or flats within the scale.

Now onto the sharps and flats you refer to, which has to do with the key of a piece of music.

The western music scale has the following twelve keys. Some keys have 2 names e.g. C# is the same as Db, the name used depends on the key a particular music is written. Ignore this for now. I now list the 12 keys using only plain and # designations (but remember all of the #s have alternative names like I mentioned before):

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B (back to C)

There is one half tone before each of these keys; don't ask why certain key pairs, like B to C has only a half tone difference, but from C to D is a whole tone, that's the way it is defined.

Based on the list of keys above, if you are in the key of C, find the notes in the C scale. Remember I explained that the notes in a scale is w-w-h-w-w-w-h. If you do this counting along the keys lists you will find that the 7 notes in the key of C are : C D E F G A B (back to C), this require no sharp keys (in other words no flat keys either).

Now figure out the notes for the key of G. Going w-w-h-w-w-w-h on the key list starting with G you will get : G A B C D E F# (back to G). What that means is that if you write a piece of music in the key of G, note 7 has to be an F# (this is the only note that has to be sharped). When sheet music is written, the scale is written with only room to show the notes C D E F G A B (back to C). So when you want to write down a piece of music in the key of G you put a # symbol along the line (or space) where F is (happens to be the top line in the treble clef) because every F should be played as an F# in order for it be in the G scale.

If you now go through starting the scale in each of the different key notes you will see that you will get more and more notes that has to be designated to be sharped. That's
why every key has a different number of sharps and flats.

Just remember if you pick a starting note (known as root note) and play w-w-h-w-w-w-h you will be playing the scale for that key. Get on your guitar and start with G (3rd fret 6th string) and play up w-w-h-w-w-w-h and figure out what actual key notes you are playing, you will find that you would have played G A B C D E F# (back to G). The good thing about guitars is it is self-transposing, which means if you play the same fingering starting a difference spot on the neck you play the same melody but in a different key, and you never have to worry whether you have to sharp the D, sharp the F, or whatever.

One last thing, the 7, 9, 11, 13, etc. are extended chords. But that would be another discussion altogether.

[fensonpaulcaster]

You can use me for a music teacher, although I don't think I'm qualified to be one but I'll try.

You are confusing designation of key with the 7 notes in any key. Any key has 7 notes, which are the 7 I referred to in my previous post. There is a pre-defined tonal 'distance' between each of the notes, they are either halftone or whole tone; a halftone is the tone difference from, let say, fret 1 to fret 2, whole tone is the difference between fret 1 to fret 3. In a regular scale the tonal 'distance' between the notes is as follows (the number is the note order, and the <half> or <whole> is the tonal difference:

1<whole>2<whole>3<half>4<whole>5<whole>6<whole>7<half>1

So doesn't matter where you start on the fretboard, if you play successive notes based on whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half you get a scale in a certain key. If you start with a C on the fretboard and play this you get the C scale; if you start with a D and play this you get a D scale. Any scale you play this way is that scale without sharps or flats within the scale.

Now onto the sharps and flats you refer to, which has to do with the key of a piece of music.

The western music scale has the following twelve keys. Some keys have 2 names e.g. C# is the same as Db, the name used depends on the key a particular music is written. Ignore this for now. I now list the 12 keys using only plain and # designations (but remember all of the #s have alternative names like I mentioned before):

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B (back to C)

There is one half tone before each of these keys; don't ask why certain key pairs, like B to C has only a half tone difference, but from C to D is a whole tone, that's the way it is defined.

Based on the list of keys above, if you are in the key of C, find the notes in the C scale. Remember I explained that the notes in a scale is w-w-h-w-w-w-h. If you do this counting along the keys lists you will find that the 7 notes in the key of C are : C D E F G A B (back to C), this require no sharp keys (in other words no flat keys either).

Now figure out the notes for the key of G. Going w-w-h-w-w-w-h on the key list starting with G you will get : G A B C D E F# (back G). What that means is that if you write a piece of music in the key of G, note 7 has to be an F# (this is the only note that has to be sharped). When sheet music is written, the scale is written with only room to show the notes C D E F G A B (back to C). So when you want to write down a piece of music in the key of G you put a # symbol along the line (or space) where F is (happens to be the top line in the treble clef) because every F should be played as an F# in order for it be in the G scale.

If you now go through starting the scale in each of the different key notes you will see that you will get more and more notes that has to be designated to be sharped. That's
why every key has a different number of sharps and flats.

Just remember if you pick a starting note (known as root note) and play w-w-h-w-w-w-h you will be playing the scale for that key. Get on your guitar and start with G (3rd fret 6th string) and play up w-w-h-w-w-w-f and figure out what actual key notes you are playing, you will find that you would have played G A B C D E F# (back to G). The good thing about guitars is it is self-transposing, which means if you play the same fingering starting a difference spot on the neck you play the same melody but in a different key, and you never have to worry whether you have to sharp the D, sharp the F, or whatever.

One last thing, the 7, 9, 11, 13, etc. are extended chords. But that would be another discussion altogether.

ok well lets see..

Well how you know what extension to play?

Like if it would fir with a Minor seventh instead of a minor..you know?