Paper neck shims

[WindyCity100]

Hey Gang!

The other day while I had "Blue Lou" apart, I popped the neck off to see how an aftermarket neck might fit and found a couple of paper shims. I wasn't suprised by this but I am a bit curious. After reading about having a clean neck pocket to improve tone and reasonance (sp?), having paper in there seems counter-intuitive.

So, here's the question: Try and level the the neck pocket (hard), replace paper with appropriately sized brass shim stock (easy), or just put 'em back in and forget I ever saw them (apathy)? :confused:

Any thoughts/comments are greatly appreciated!

[Katastrophe]

Does it sound good now?

I've wondered if a brass shim would have any effect on resonance or sustain. I would imagine the the effect, if any would be minimal.

I wouldn't try to level the neck pocket, as you would be taking material away from the pocket, making a shim that much more necessary.

It's a cool experiment (the brass shim) are you gonna try it?

[mechanic]

I'd replace the shims with brass.
I had to reverse shim a cheap telecaster that was a birthday present a while back.
The only shim material I had at the time was old picks.
I used a thin Fender pick. (.10 thou) It got rid of the high register fret buzz alright but there was a NOTICIBLE loss of sustain and change in tone.
Swapping the pick to brass of the same thickness made a noticeable improvement to the point it almost sounds as good as when there was no shim at all.
HTH
Eric

[bigoldron]

I'd replace the shims with brass.
I had to reverse shim a cheap telecaster that was a birthday present a while back.
The only shim material I had at the time was old picks.
I used a thin Fender pick. (.10 thou) It got rid of the high register fret buzz alright but there was a NOTICIBLE loss of sustain and change in tone.
Swapping the pick to brass of the same thickness made a noticeable improvement to the point it almost sounds as good as when there was no shim at all.
HTH
Eric

I've got some fret buzz on about the 12th fret and up, especially on the bass side on my Squier whenever I try to lower the action to where I'm comfortable. Did you shim closer to the heel/body? Whenever I took the neck off to see when it was made, a piece of sandpaper cut into a small rectangular shape fell out. I didn't notice where exactly it came from, so I'm not sure where to put it back. If I place it closer to the heel and adjust the truss rod for a little more bow, would that probably take care of the buzz?

The Squier really plays good other than that buzz with the lowered action. Thanks for any advice.

[mechanic]

If you have fret buzz at 12th fret or higher its common for the problem to be the neck is angled backwards too far.
Thats the problem my tele had.
I put the shim on the headstock side of the neck pocket to angle the neck forward a little.
I put the shim right between the 2 screws that are furthest away from the pickups and fret buzz went away.
HTH
Eric

[Fab4]

After reading about having a clean neck pocket to improve tone and resonance, having paper in there seems counter-intuitive.


It does seem counterintuitive, but bear in mind that Fender used cardboard shims in their instruments for decades. Open up a vintage '50s Strat or Tele and you could very well find a little strip of paper that looks like it was cut from a shirt box and that was put there when the guitar was set up at the factory. Leo Fender was nothing if not pragmatic (and a skinflint), but that doesn't stop those guitars from being the most sought after instruments in history.

Leo's philosophy was "do whatever works." Cardboard shims worked for him. Brass shims might work for you. Using poplar, basswood, alder or ash makes sense to me to maintain the consistency of wood in the neck joint. But again, experiment, see if you can tell a difference and do what works.

[markb]

I'd go for wood. Levelling the neck pocket won't work as it's already cut too deep. There's no problem with shims. I use millboard which is the very hard card used by bookbinders. It can be sanded and filed just like wood but I'll admit I only use it because I've got access to offcuts.

[WindyCity100]

I don't have any issue with leaving them in. Right now, I'm just following the good advice I've read here regarding upgrading a MIM Strat. Shielding and a new trem to go in sometime in the next couple weeks. I thought brass might be better simply due to the density vs. paper/cardboard. Someone here used the phrase "silk purse from a sow's ear"...that's where I'm at now, just tryin' to do the easy things that will put some life into the ol' girl. I have a brother who's a machinist, so he can hook me up with the shim stock, which frankly, is why it occured to me first.

Off topic a bit, but the guy at the local guitar store told 300-400 $$$ for a fret job on me neck (new frets and full set up on them). Does this seem high or just my ignorance on the subject?

[Fab4]

Off topic a bit, but the guy at the local guitar store told 300-400 $$$ for a fret job on me neck (new frets and full set up on them). Does this seem high or just my ignorance on the subject?

Is that Canadian dollars or something? That seems mighty high. Geeze, you can get a whole new NECK (frets included) from Warmoth.com for $135 US.

[mrmudcat]

That is the Chicago mark-up;)


To high if ya ask me !!!:AOK:

[Andy]

Interesting,seems like paper(wood pulp) would be a more natural connection between the 2 pieces of wood. ar does brass resonate better?

[WindyCity100]

Dunno...just going off the premise that brass makes good nuts (I heard) and the whole high-mass trem block thing. The more solid the substance, the better the "connectivity", at least in my enfeebled mind. :D

[Big K]

I've used thin picks before to not only shim a neck but also to shim one side of a nut and they seemed to work fine but I may have been happy to stop the buzzing:whatever:

[LagrangeCalvert]

Does it sound good now?

I've wondered if a brass shim would have any effect on resonance or sustain. I would imagine the the effect, if any would be minimal.

I wouldn't try to level the neck pocket, as you would be taking material away from the pocket, making a shim that much more necessary.

It's a cool experiment (the brass shim) are you gonna try it?

I have a brass shim in the neck pocket of my Epi special 2 and it gave the guitar a tad o sustain... I noticed a bit more "bite" in the tone but that IMHO is the only difference.

[poodlesrule]

tsst, tsst..

Some people have not been reading their Dan Erlewine books...!

DE talks about a semi-renowned guitar engineer friend of his who shims ALL his guitars and does it commercially, even, claiming the new "cavity" under the neck adds resonance.

Edit to add: the shim in question is placed headstock side, at, or near the neck screws, hence the cavity behind it (towards pickups)

[WindyCity100]

yessss......my Dan Erlewine books.....you mean those books I SHOULD have bought and READ BEFORE removing even ONE screw from my guitar?? :thwap: For me, it goes like this:

1. Disassemble
2. Misplace parts
3. Ponder my situation for a time (read: a month or two)
4. Research the subject, buy some parts that may or may not fit
5. Coincidentally find parts while looking for something else (cigarette lighter, clean underwear)
6. Reassemble...marvel at the fact it works
7. Consider starting another project with now un-needed extra parts
8. Join Forums to find out just how misguided I was/am.

So, now you know why all the (seemingly obvious) questions! :D

[Big K]

1. Disassemble
2. Misplace parts
3. Ponder my situation for a time (read: a month or two)
4. Research the subject, buy some parts that may or may not fit
5. Coincidentally find parts while looking for something else (cigarette lighter, clean underwear)
6. Reassemble...marvel at the fact it works
7. Consider starting another project with now un-needed extra parts
8. Join Forums to find out just how misguided I was/am.


and what's wrong with this method?

[Fab4]

Dunno...just going off the premise that brass makes good nuts (I heard) and the whole high-mass trem block thing.

Brass was the go-to material for a while in the '70s and early '80s - I had a Strat with a brass pickguard for a long time (weighed a ton) - but it has since fallen out of favor. Brass can increase sustain and bite a little, but it seems to work at the expense of tonal complexity. That's why you won't find many custom shop or boutique guitar makers using brass nuts or bridge blocks anymore (although I'll bet some Fretter can point out an exception). The trend now seems to be toward lighter materials, lighter guitars, more resonance and less pure sustain. The thinking is, a resonant guitar vibrates more freely and can be induced into Santana-like sustain more easily as it reacts to the sound coming from the amp.

That said, I doubt it will make much difference what material you use as a neck shim, so I'd say:
1. Try what you have.
2. See how you like it.
3. Try something else.
4. See if you can tell a difference.
5. Use what works best and/or is easiest to get and to work with.

[Bloozcat]

Yes, Dan Erlewine's Guitar Repair book is an indispensible tool to have before you start monkeying around with the neck/action.

The level of the fretboard and frets is different from the angle of the neck in relation to the guitar body. The tongue of the neck should "fall away" towards the bridge as it fits inside the neck pocket. This creates the necessary angle to prevent fret buzz on the higher frets. If the neck doesn't have the necessary taper to create this "falling away" (which is actually a very, very slight taper), then shims are used to compensate.

In a perfect world, the neck and body will be exactly mated to each other. But we're talking about Leo Fender's invention here. Leo was the Eli Whitney of guitars when it came to interchangable parts. Close enough is all that's required, not perfection. Tollerances held within acceptable standards, not precise standards. Now, set neck guitars are another matter altogether....

[markb]

Dunno...just going off the premise that brass makes good nuts (I heard) and the whole high-mass trem block thing. The more solid the substance, the better the "connectivity", at least in my enfeebled mind. :D

Find a 1980s acoustic with a brass nut. Play some open string stuff and see what brass does for tone. Brass hardware was a fad for a while in the days of stripy neck-through Alembic lookalikes. Remember these?

http://www.westone.info/images/thunder3mk1body.jpg

Traditionally Fender have used bone or plastic for nuts and steel for saddles (on strats). They've been using a die-casting alloy for trem blocks for years. American Standard and Series strats (1987-2007) also use die-cast alloy saddles. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that there's very little reason to change any of these parts but, as always it's down to the owner's tastes.

[oldguy]

I guess I'm getting old, but I don't remember a lot of those little white rectangles with red X 's in them....................

[WindyCity100]

Well, it's become almost academic now...I GASsed last night and bought one o' them there snazzy chrome red bodies (a MIM, the price was right), so the MM neck I have will go on that, as will the TS pups. Then it will go out for a set up and possibly a LSR roller nut (if they don't gouge me on it). I "best offered" on a nice neck on that semi-popular online auction site, but I guess it wasn't Best enough! Blue Lou will still get a new bridge, and maybe some better pup's eventually, but it's time to audition for a new #1.