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The ski industry has lost a few in the last couple weeks. Ryan Hawks of the freeskiing world tour, the gentleman discussed in this article to name two. The death of ski great Shane McConkey about two years ago generated a lot of statements like, "Well at least he died doing what he loved." This article provides some good food for thought. What do you think?
http://kimkircher.com/2011/03/09/is-...what-you-love/
Who are we to judge? It was their life. I think the guy in the article is being a bit possessive and righteous. Maybe just to stroke his own ego. Fact is: he doesn't have a say in the matter. When you die - you die and nobody has a say in it at all. I don't think equating drug deaths to sport deaths is not a fair analogy either. It seems like the writer wrote it to make himself appear good or feel better about something. Whatever it is it's not his call.
I agree entirely. The writer comes off as self-righteous and his heroin addiction analogy is not particularly accurate, seeming to only to consider the psychological side of addiction. There are plenty of cases where it's not a matter of a junkie wanting to get back to the feeling of some mystical first high, it's a matter of someone physiologically addicted to a substance. In the end, the analogy only makes the writer seem that much more self-righteous as he appears to not understand what he's talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudman
With respect to SVL's actual question, is it ok to die doing what you love... it seems a whole lot better than dying do something you hate. Perhaps as the writer says it's of little comfort to the family of the dead man, but in time that knowledge may help them find some peace.
The author is a her. And a ski patroller, who admits in her article that she does not like anyone, (particularly someone she knows) to die on her watch. As she says, she wants to think that she and her team will be able to rescue those in trouble when they get in trouble. But she is speaking honestly and out loud about her views, hoping to get people to talk about something she thinks is important.
Re: the issue at hand, I agree that we should not necessarily judge those that take risks in pursuit of their sports. In many sports, some risks are unavoidable. I think the tipping point regarding taking on unavoidable risk shifts depending on if you have kids to guide and support, etc. A daredevil single person may take on waves off the north shores of Hawaii that a married father of five might choose not to tackle.
But in this case, it was not an uncontrollable or unavoidable risk that caused this death. The decedent in this situation was a former ski patroller and snow cat driver who apparently went skiing in the "side country" or in the trees on his own. It is a known rule that you don't go doing that on your own. And as a former patroller, he knew better. He has not been found, and the thought is that he is buried somewhere in a tree well. Many searchers spent a lot of time looking. I don't have a problem accepting risk as part of sport, but I wonder when it is an avoidable risk and you do it anyway, if that is worth it.
Having said that, I will admit that I skied in the trees off the side of a couple marked runs pretty recently, by myself when I knew better. I knew it was not the best move, but I wanted the powder. Risk is inherent in skiing, mountainbiking, surfing, etc. But it is good to avoid the risks that can be avoided. "Powder fever" often seems to cause folks to make choices that are not great viewed later on from a different perspective. There is a lot of talk of that in backcountry travel classes. Knowing your group, knowing yourself, and knowing when your judgment is good and when it is poor. These recent incidents, and my taking notice of my own choices recently prompted me to think a bit about it.
Skiing by yourself in uncontrolled side country or off marked, inbounds runs, is not a great choice though.
Not wishing to die at all, but I'd rather die doing something I love VS rotting in a hospital bed. For me thats motorcyle racing/stunt riding so it's reasonably high risk. I say reasonably because I've been riding for 30years, so what is a risk for me at my level is more of a risk to someone less experienced.....next is playing music and it seems relatively low risk that I would die doing this, less someone threw a rotten egg at me and I catch Salmonella that would be a bad way to go....
Speaking of which...bad ways to go.........someone at work recently said to me drowning would have to be THE worst way to go but I've heard it's MEANT (somehow) to be a peaceful way of going. To me, the very worst way to die would be a prolonged death by disease (cancer, leukemia etc) OR being burnt to death.......! Dying on a motorcycle has gotta be better than being burnt to death!
I enjoy my activities, many of which have risk. Just good to actually think about the risks as you go, control the ones you can, walk away from the risks you can't accept by some defined standard, and once you have accepted the rest, let go and go for it. If you run around scared all the time, it doesn't help.
The first thing that came to my mind is - would anybody give a sh** if a guy dies doing a puzzle or planting potatoes, because it is what he loves/loved?
I have the impression that risky sports are absolutely overhyped and the more risky your moves the more groth your heroic status gains. It's always been this way and it will never change. I keep it like Mike Tyson's coach used to say. There are fighters and dancers. I think the guys who get a rush/kick out of base jumping and putting on a crazy smile, because the adrenalin blocks all their ratio are the fighters. I consider myself a dancer and am totally with what SVL says in the above post ^. Sometimes you have to risk something, don't run around scared all the time, but the risk should not be hazardous to your life!
Despite of that I can understand those folks who risk their life, like motocross jumpers, base jumpers. It's their way of life and as long as they do not put the lifes of others on risk with their action it's okay.
To answer the initial question. Death is nobody's friend. Would it make a difference if I died playing the guitar or doing martial arts? I'd rather be in the arms of my loved ones, but this is because I set familiar priorities, always! I personally find the utterance "At least he died doing what he loved" a little inapropriate. Living is always better than being dead. The fact that someone dies doing what he loved doesn't ease the grief.
A few years ago I was riding sportbikes - large group rides over some of the most insane twisty roads. Very risky - and there were more than a couple of people killed or permanently disabled in the circle. On the bike forums after a fatality, the posts were always the same..."RIP, at least he died doing something he loved"
After my own wreck (not serious thank God) I really got to thinking what a load of crap "at least he died doing something he loved" is. I'm sure in their final moments (one decapitation, one 15 feet in tree, etc) the last thing on their minds was "at least I went out riding".
I haven't felt the same about bikes since. I'm not sure if those people would have died at the same if they weren't riding, but probably not.
I guess we make our decisions about what's really important to us and lie in the bed we make.
I agree with Spuds on this one, who are we to judge? When you're dead, you're dead.
I will say, personally, I'd rather die doing something I love, but I'll still be just as dead.
The past few years, seeing my mother in a nursing home since her stroke, and subsequent seizures, has made me think differently about lots of things.
I had a friend who loved sky diving and one day his chute didn't work. I couldn't say that he died from what he loved doing, I only can say WTF!
Death is final and nobody enjoy that.
I enjoy motorcycling a great deal - started when i was single digits with a 50cc dirt bike. I know I am an excellent rider but that I can be taken out by some ******* at any time. I also have a wife and kid. Does this mean I should not do what brings me such great pleasure? I think not. You only go around once and I believe you should enjoy every minute of the ride. To me it's quality over quantity anyway. I would rather be dead than have to spend x amount of years of my life bed ridden or dependent on care by someone else. My grandfather was right - once you loose the ability to wipe your own *** you have no more quality of life.
Don't wrap your head around the numbers...we are all born with an expiration date. No one gets out out alive.
As a person who has done his share of higher than average risk sports and activities, back before the "Extreme" hype came along, I see both sides of the issue.
As long as I'm not risking anyone else's life during my activity, as well as during a possible rescue or body recovery, then all is well.
However, when some ego driven boneheads climb Mt. McKinley/Denali and get themselves stuck after a blizzard, and the rescue costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, or possibly the crew's life, then I have a problem! When Bucky the skate dood wants to be the next youtube sensation and tries to gap a staircase or ledge and spends the rest of his life in diapers, drooling with little brain function, yet the Medicaid cost to the rest of us tax payers runs over $200,000 per year, then I have a problem!
I'm reminded of a few quotes:Quote:
Originally Posted by R_of_G
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. - Thoreau
People spend a third of their lives going places they don't want to go, doing things they don't want to do - Millenium TV series.
We all should be so lucky as to die doing something we love.
Death is also inevitable. All living things die. Unfortunately as human beings we are cursed with knowing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteman
I think I'd rather die doing something I hate. Gets me off the hook for the rest of it. Like maybe dropping dead 2 minutes into an IRS audit or a root canal....
Didn't read the article, but I'll weigh in anyway. Isn't that what internet forums are all about?
I don't think it's quite as one-sided as everyone here says. You really do have a responsibility to people in your life, particularly if you have a spouse and kids, but even without that, nobody is an island. It's foolish to think that your actions every day don't influence many people, and I think a lot of people try hard to ignore that whenever they don't want some accountability for how they live their life.
So yeah, die however you want, but there's still a responsibility everyone has as a person to love and be loved, and an accountability you have to those people. You need to reconcile that, no matter how much of a badass you think you are.
I had the Throreau quote in mind as well, but then again, it's not unusual for to be thinking about Thoreau. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tunghaichuan
Never watched Millenium, but that quote is quite good as well, particularly when you consider most people also spend another third of their lives sleeping.
That's pretty much the "human condition," managing to live our lives without being crippled by the fear/sadness of our impending demise; as Joseph Campbell describes the actions of a bodhisattva, "joyful participation in the sorrows of the temporal world."Quote:
Originally Posted by tunghaichuan
Now that is a man I wish I met when he was alive. Incredible vision and wisdom. The Bill Moyers sessions were enlightening. I'll leave it at that since we don't need to get into religious/theological discussions here.Quote:
Originally Posted by R_of_G
Not necessarily. There are many who are severely and chronically pained/incapacitated whose only hope for relief is DEATH. Also known as "hell on earth".Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi75
When we went to Germany nearly 3 years ago in a last-ditch attempt to salvage my daughter's life....we all prayed to God; "Please dear Lord, either fix or or take her, please don't leave her like this". We got lucky, she was fixed by a combination of God's grace and the incredibly skillful German doctor and his staff.
+10 on what OldGuy and Tig said too.
Here's my take on this if your single do what you want as you wish.
But if your a father/parent and the risk you take does not encompass your job/career your just being selfish.
Because your thrill seeking choice will leave a father-less or mother-less child in your wake once your a parent if your kids are not placed high in the priority of your life shame on you.
I love to kayak rapids & ocean I have my own custom build rigs two for rapids and 2 for the ocean. I have been doing this since I was 8 years old.
I have gone down size 6 rapids (heck even 10's back before America adopted the European grading systems for rapids.) hundreds of times kayak in the ocean miles off-shore but once I became a father I cut back on those activities my knowledge and skill is way above average but accidents happen to the most skilled people as well so to reduce the risk to my family I go out kayaking only occasionally now. Sure things could still go wrong but not to take any precaution on my part would be irresponsible and selfish at best given the negative outcome my death would have for my family.
Best example of this the Rapids in the Kern river is the best it has been in over 15 years and will be all month as the snow melts from the high Sierras and Rockies.
Man oh man I would love to go for a ride in March but the risk would be sky high the Kern river can be one deadly river. I honestly do not think anything would happen since I never go alone or unprepared but why risk it wait until late April early May the ride will still be better than all of last year and the risk to my family will be greatly reduce so its a no brainer.
Once your a parent its all about fun with in reason risk V.S. reward.
My answer is: it depends. If a person loves playing Russian Roullette, and manages to catch the magic bullet one day, would everyone say that "He died doing what he loved?" I would hope not.
OTOH, a police officer or a fireman, who loves their job, dies in the line of duty saving others, then "He died doing what he loved" could be appropriate.
I think the author's point of view was one of someone responsible for saving lives. No one in that line of work wants to have to hear someone say that phrase, when the death happened on their shift.
All's I know is that I want to say "Amen" at the end of my last sermon and then spontaneously combust. That's leave an impression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marnold
What I'm QUITE certain of, is that I DO NOT want to extend my life no matter how my loved ones might feel about it.
I do not understand why would anybody want to live till they're so old and feeble they need diapers already etc?
My own mother is also quite demented, might live for a decade still, but if it were allowed, I'd slip her a death pill already. I would want one, in her state.
My plan all along has been to only increase my alcohol and cigarette intake when I get older. I suppose my kids might by then be trying to get me to live healthy and whatnot...but why would I want to do that? I see no allure in sitting in a rocking chair crying about my aches all the day; or even worse rot away in some hospital for half a decade, begging nurses to please change my diaper at least once a day or to take me outside at least once a week...I've worked a summer job in a geriatric ward and man it's horrible, old people take years to die and it's just horrid how they just lie there in diapers and relatives visit once a week or once a month and they hardly recognize them any more...damned two nurses to every 50 patients etc...jeez anything rather than that fate.
No, I'd rather die doing what I like to do, which might be for instance sailing on a sunny sea and drinking a lot of Cognac. I don't believe in any form of afterlife or souls or anything remotely like that, I know for sure it's just over when it's over and no different from, like me turning off my computer when nature turns off my power, so I'm just concerned with how my kids will fare once I'm gone. I plan to give all my possessions to them while I'm still sane and all that, so there's no inheritance to deal with, and for the final years just do what ever I please, drink and smoke and maybe write a book or two, and hopefully keel over with a fat cigar on my lips while having a nice buzz from cognac.
I just wish my mom woulda started smoking and drinking in her old age so now she would not have to suffer for so long.
My past years in the fire/EMS/medical field taught me that quality of life is more important than quantity alone. Seeing many patients with no useful brain activity or in perpetual, unbearable pain from something that will soon kill them builds this understanding. Life is precious, yet sometimes it can be cruel beyond all recognition. While I respect opposing opinions, I welcome anyone to spend time in a hospice to broaden their horizons.
There are times that the most graceful event is death itself when compared to unimaginable pain and suffering. Some people see their loved ones slipping away and understandably wish they would stay alive longer in hopes of a cure, or for selfish reasons (not wanting to be alone, etc.). The welfare of the patient must come first in these cases. I don't say we should play God with another's life, but the bigger picture is clear when we truly care and see that continued suffering is indeed cruel and actually pointless.
However, when you face death up close, the desire to live is quite powerful. Ask any nurse who has worked in a burn ward, for instance. In the same stroke, you see cancer patients sitting outside the cancer treatment hospital or hospice with IV bags, still smoking. Regardless of addiction, I'll never understand that scene!
There are times to bend like a reed in the wind, and there are times to fight the good fight with everything you got.
Tomorrow is promised to no person.
Deeaa, I get what you are saying, as I watch my Mother in Law start to decline with some dementia. But that said, I don't think it is an either or thing. Meaning, you don't have to have your hair so completely and unreasonably on fire that you die too young by taking poor risks or just not paying attention. Maybe save the skiing into a base jump after flying with one of those flying squirrel suits until you are close to needing to be in a home, and are done raising the kids?
Shane McConkey, whose death begat a whole lot of the "at least he died doing what he loved" talk, added one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0tU3Hy7et8
To this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtXt_UsZ4YQ
So he added the risk of a wing suit, to the risk of base jumping, to the risk of his ski equipment not working. his bindings did not release as required for him to combine the wing suit and the base jump, and very sadly, he passed.
He was a hero to a lot of kids I coach, and still is. But I have asked the kids I coach to read this article, think this out for themselves. The risks are real. They are 17, and starting to throw large jumps and tricks. They have and are developing skills that if used to full potential, carry consequences. So they need to think this out for themselves, and not just follow that slogan too literally.
Here is Adam, who I coach, with his latest trick:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1738225947339&comments
He is a strong kid, who puts tons of time in on a tramp to do this. He will do what he will do, but I don't want him to follow blindly.
This vid tells the McConkey story in the comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtVnHGr1_ds
Exactly Steve. That's why right now, as my kids are small, I take super care of everything, live very safe and lead a (more or less) healthy lifestyle with plenty of exercise too and healthy eating of lots of salads etc. and cigs, alcohol and rock'n'roll in moderation. Because I want to stay well till I'm retiring and my kids are standing on their own. Then I'm free to do whatever!
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tig
It put me in mind of this, which I believe are some of his best lyrics. Some great guitar work too.