Trade Tang Gibsun Les Paul Supreme - order review

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Originally Posted by stingx

...There is simply NO REASON to buy a cheap, knockoff guitar unless you are truly new to this game and have no one to guide you in the right direction when it comes picking out a good playing, quality instrument.

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I'm gonna disagree with this out-right. Not to mention the many TF.Net players that have Agiles and other "cheap" knockoffs. Many are not new to this game and buy them frequently. Also "good playing" and "quality instrument" are subjective based on the player.

I checked out that Fretteck site - looks to be only strats and tele's and they source their product from GFS and AllParts...Wonder where GFS and All Parts gets their bodies and necks from...?? I checked All Parts and there's not even a Les Paul neck on the site let alone one with block or trapezoid inlays (personal favorite features of mine). Certainly nothing like the neck on my Gibsun.

It's great that you got yourself a nice guitar from Fretteck - but the price, features and quality of several knock-offs make for an awesome value/price ratio even if you have to change some pots/wiring.

I used "cheap" in quotes. A cheap, as in cost, guitar is not the same as a cheaply made guitar. You can get a very nice guitar for your money buying an Agile and an Epi. You also get a warranty and some piece of mind over buying from some unknown Asian knockoff company. I understand you knew you were taking a risk ordering that guitar. I don't recommend someone do that. The story rarely ends as well as yours. Again though, to save money, those mentioned guitars will use cheaper parts - those parts being the nut and the electronics/pups.

Allparts necks are made in Japan, some in USA, and are licensed Fender replacement necks. The body, from GFS, is wood milled to exact vintage specs for either strats or teles and will accept all necks, parts, hardware perfectly. Most Asian knockoffs will not.

If you read into my post as knocking Epi and Agile, I think you missed my point.

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Originally Posted by stingx

I used "cheap" in quotes. A cheap, as in cost, guitar is not the same as a cheaply made guitar. You can get a very nice guitar for your money buying an Agile and an Epi. You also get a warranty and some piece of mind over buying from some unknown Asian knockoff company. I understand you knew you were taking a risk ordering that guitar. I don't recommend someone do that. The story rarely ends as well as yours. Again though, to save money, those mentioned guitars will use cheaper parts - those parts being the nut and the electronics/pups.

Allparts necks are made in Japan, some in USA, and are licensed Fender replacement necks. The body, from GFS, is wood milled to exact vintage specs for either strats or teles and will accept all necks, parts, hardware perfectly. Most Asian knockoffs will not.

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I think you might be talking about something different here than what most people think when they read your post, though I think I get what your point is. There are a lot of different angles and perceptions.

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If you read into my post as knocking Epi and Agile, I think you missed my point.

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I might say the message is the message received. If you meant cheap in quotes, you could use quotes. Just sayin'.

On a different note, can you spec out many set-neck guitars? progrmr alluded to it, but a lot of the custom-assembly jobbies I see out there are bolt-on Fender copies. I like set necks a bit better, so I'm wondering if there are options for companies that do the same with Gibson-type guitars.

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Originally Posted by stingx

I used "cheap" in quotes. A cheap, as in cost, guitar is not the same as a cheaply made guitar. You can get a very nice guitar for your money buying an Agile and an Epi. You also get a warranty and some piece of mind over buying from some unknown Asian knockoff company. I understand you knew you were taking a risk ordering that guitar. I don't recommend someone do that. The story rarely ends as well as yours. Again though, to save money, those mentioned guitars will use cheaper parts - those parts being the nut and the electronics/pups.

Allparts necks are made in Japan, some in USA, and are licensed Fender replacement necks. The body, from GFS, is wood milled to exact vintage specs for either strats or teles and will accept all necks, parts, hardware perfectly. Most Asian knockoffs will not.

If you read into my post as knocking Epi and Agile, I think you missed my point.

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I have to interject something here. Your course of action makes complete sense for someone wanting a Fender style guitar, but the options you presented aren't really applicable for the player desiring a Les Paul style guitar. Also, FWIW, the upper-tier Agiles do use quality electronics, tuners, and nut material.

If you have suggestions for affordable Les Paul style guitars, I'd like to hears those.

Here's the thing, Eric. TradeTang is a blatant copyright-infringement wholesaler who use very substandard parts. A simple search on the interwebs will reveal far too many horror stories. I hope the little bit of luck the OP had with his purchase doesn't spark someone's interest in buying from this company because the sad fact of the matter is they are not reputable and sell counterfeit products.

My other point is that ALL products are made to a PRICE POINT. Even Fender and the other big names do this. A few cents here and there adds up to a lot when you deal with the volume they do. This is why cheaper electronics are typically found in their lower end offerings. It's no secret. So, to stress the point - if you factor in replacing all the hardware and pickups on your cheaply purchased guitar then you aren't saving as much as you think. A lot of times you could do much better on the used market or assembling your own (where applicable) from quality parts.

Take a look at tradetang and tell me why you would even bother looking there when you could buy a great playing/equipped Squire, Epi, etc. for same or less? Or find a great used guitar for that matter?

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Originally Posted by stingx

Here's the thing, Eric. TradeTang is a blatant copyright-infringement wholesaler who use very substandard parts. A simple search on the interwebs will reveal far too many horror stories. I hope the little bit of luck the OP had with his purchase doesn't spark someone's interest in buying from this company because the sad fact of the matter is they are not reputable and sell counterfeit products.

My other point is that ALL products are made to a PRICE POINT. Even Fender and the other big names do this. A few cents here and there adds up to a lot when you deal with the volume they do. This is why cheaper electronics are typically found in their lower end offerings. It's no secret. So, to stress the point - if you factor in replacing all the hardware and pickups on your cheaply purchased guitar then you aren't saving as much as you think. A lot of times you could do much better on the used market or assembling your own (where applicable) from quality parts.

Take a look at tradetang and tell me why you would even bother looking there when you could buy a great playing/equipped Squire, Epi, etc. for same or less? Or find a great used guitar for that matter?

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Trying to remain calm here, but if you look up at my previous post, I think I said that I get your point. I disagree with some of what you're saying, but in general I see what you're driving at.

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Originally Posted by NWBasser

I have to interject something here. Your course of action makes complete sense for someone wanting a Fender style guitar, but the options you presented aren't really applicable for the player desiring a Les Paul style guitar. Also, FWIW, the upper-tier Agiles do use quality electronics, tuners, and nut material.

If you have suggestions for affordable Les Paul style guitars, I'd like to hears those.

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A carved topped/set neck instrument such as a Les Paul is more expensive to produce than a bold on type of guitar. You can buy the higher priced models of Agile, for instance, and get the better components but the price goes up. Some Agiles LP style guitars are over $500. Epi's with better components and aesthetics are more than that. It's hard to get a custom build for cheap with these models. This still doesn't rule out a great used market. Also, my intent wasn't to knock any of these guitars.

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

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Originally Posted by stingx

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

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I'll go ahead and disagree with that outright. You think all profit margins are the same?

I mean, we're not going to agree on this, because we both have things we can't see past when it comes to this discussion. I suppose we should just give it a break. You can have the last word if you prefer; I'll just sit and watch.

Eric, in the case of this TradeTang guitar, didn't the OP get exactly what he paid for?

Playing over 25 years I know what makes a good guitar as opposed to a bad one. What to look for. If you can find yourself a really good guitar that has a well cut nut of good material, good electronics (try doing volume swells or really use tone controls with cheap pots and caps), good hardware and tuners and a good neck with well-dressed frets then I don't care what the name says or doesn't say on the headstock. So I am not a brand whore. I own guitars I paid under $200 for that meet that criteria. I am the first to tell you you don't have to spend a lot to get a great playing instrument.

I'm also in the financial sector and will repeat what I said. All goods are manufactured to a price point. That's a fact. What separates good guitars from mediocre from bad are the quality of the parts used and the attention to detail/setup - all reflected in the price point the manufacturer has set for maximum profit.

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Originally Posted by stingx

A carved topped/set neck instrument such as a Les Paul is more expensive to produce than a bold on type of guitar. You can buy the higher priced models of Agile, for instance, and get the better components but the price goes up. Some Agiles LP style guitars are over $500. Epi's with better components and aesthetics are more than that. It's hard to get a custom build for cheap with these models. This still doesn't rule out a great used market. Also, my intent wasn't to knock any of these guitars.

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

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I think I'm in near complete agreement here. I'd add that with such brands as Agile and Epiphone, they are well-known quantities and you can set your expectations for quality/price accordingly. With Trade Tang, they don't have a very documented quality record which makes it much more difficult to define your expectations.

I can't think of anyone doing a custom build for this style of guitar for cheap, probably for good reason.

The used market is indeed a great place to save some $$ on an LP.

I agree with the used market for a nice LP. I got my LP Classic when it was a year old and saved more then 600 bucks on it. They guy had bought it and decided he didn't like the tone for the type of music he was doing. The guitar was perfect and came with its OEM HSC and a Gibby gig bad. Had my luthier put new strings on it and it needed nothing else. Almost the same story with my SG.

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Originally Posted by stingx

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

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I had to think about this a bit and generally agree that for more $$ you'll get better parts and workmanship.

However, if for example the workers at the Agile plant just got a raise/laid/good coffee/etc. you may get a guitar that really exceeds the price on the workmanship part. Conversely, you can buy a Gibson for top $$ and the builders got drunk the night before, wife/husband left them, yelled at by super, etc. and the guitar turns out to be a POS.

There is a fair bit of variability in the manufacturing processes and it's always a good idea to purchase from a dealer/mfr. who will support the products if a problem should arise. (Kurt at Rondo Music being a good example)

I'd further argue that your example of the custom tele for $500 may be a bit more value than what you pay for. I mean, if it's comparable for a $1K USA Fender, then you're getting quite the bargain!

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Originally Posted by NWBasser

I had to think about this a bit and generally agree that for more $$ you'll get better parts and workmanship.

However, if for example the workers at the Agile plant just got a raise/laid/good coffee/etc. you may get a guitar that really exceeds the price on the workmanship part. Conversely, you can buy a Gibson for top $$ and the builders got drunk the night before, wife/husband left them, yelled at by super, etc. and the guitar turns out to be a POS.

There is a fair bit of variability in the manufacturing processes and it's always a good idea to purchase from a dealer/mfr. who will support the products if a problem should arise.

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I agree wholeheartedly with this - I've seen such lemons from respectable brands and so good el cheapos...it just happens.

My personal view is that generally you get what you pay for - now disregarding purely aesthetic values here - up to a certain point. I find that point to usually rest somewhere around the $500 marker, depending on how much features you want from a guitar. And that is assuming no costs for luthiering. If we assume you can't do any work yourself basically, the bar raises to maybe around $800 or so.

I know for a fact that I can score and rebuild a guitar for under $400 that will rival _any_ guitar out there in both playability and sound. I have two prime examples; my Charvette-based build that is - no shaite - better than pretty much any guitar I ever played in almost any respect, and the Yamaha shredder, a simple machine of some $200 value that still plays and screams better than most if not all $1500 shredders I ever tried.

Now, if you want a truly great guitar and assume you can't do any work on it yourself, I'd say you're looking at that 800 or so in the minimum. I can totally understand dropping 15 hundred for a dream guitar that looks and feels just as you want. Sure, there are some really good guitars way cheaper too, but they will _always_ have some weak points; need to upgrade the pickups, don't come with a case, or just need a good setup, or maybe have some crappy woods hidden below the veneer.

So you do get what you pay for...but in my personal view, if you're approaching or exceeding 4 digit sums for an electric guitar...well, I think it would be healthy to realize anything past that is either purely aesthetic or brand image or, in many cases - assurance for resale value. Nothing to do with the usage value or quality of the instrument past that. Hell, for 15 hundred I could have any kind of guitar built to tightest standards ever, with best possible woods, just as I want it. That's why some of the Gibson etc. prices just make me dizzy - they have nothing to do with anything but brand and prestige.

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Originally Posted by stingx

You ultimately get exactly what you pay for.

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Originally Posted by Eric

I'll go ahead and disagree with that outright. You think all profit margins are the same?

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I'm with Eric on this one. As for getting "exactly what you pay for", I could buy the same guitar that progrmr did for probably 40% less. Would this mean that we both got what we paid for?

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Originally Posted by stingx

I'm also in the financial sector and will repeat what I said. All goods are manufactured to a price point. That's a fact. What separates good guitars from mediocre from bad are the quality of the parts used and the attention to detail/setup - all reflected in the price point the manufacturer has set for maximum profit.

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Regarding manufacturing to a price point, I'm not really sure what you mean in this instance, stingx. What progrmr bought here is not a typical Gibson-sold-in-GC kind of thing. These guitars are often being sold by factories to middlemen who sell them to westerners. Sometimes different sellers are selling the same guitars for very different prices. Therefore I would say that at the stage that progrmr received it, any price point from the manufacturer wasn't terribly relevant.

Regarding what I think separates good guitars from bad:

1). Quality/compatibility of components. We basically agree here.
2). Accomplished level of craftsmanship AND quality control. A setup has not much to do with whether your guitar is good or bad, just how playable it is (or not) when you've received it. A good guitar with a bad setup can still be a good guitar however a bad guitar, even with a good setup, well...sucks...!
3). Luck (or lack of it).

My 2 cents (or is it 4?) ;)

My main gripe with Trade Tang (as others have also mentioned) is that they are presenting themselves as something they aren't. "Gibsun" indeed. I also hate it when people insist on replacing a "Squier" on their headstock with a "Fender" (or even "Ferden" for that matter). I don't like deception. I don't understand people's insecurity with what's on a headstock. My LTD bass wouldn't play any better if it had ESP on the headstock instead.

My comment for Chinese Gibsons. I have bought three while visiting Beijing a few time. Two Standards and a Custom. They had all the right trimmings so to speak. Only the pickups were a little weak.

Epiphone has a plant in China. So does Ibanez (I bought a Steve Vai JEM) Gibson is trying to crack down. But cracking down is done on a local level with the music stores. Bribery, for lack of better word. Forget about copyright laws in China. Non-existent.

That being said, like many guitars, you have to play and inspect them if you can. Some were absolute garbage. However, some guitars (Gibson especially) are great copies. The paint and finish alone is worth the $250 they seem to charge for any guitar regardless of make.

The Gibson copies are generally made at the Epiphone plant in Qingdao. The plant is allowed to run off copies. Again, price of doing business in China. Ibanez does the same so you get the "Made in Japan" stamp. Everything is computers now. Plays great.

Well I sold the Gibsun yesterday :) The tradetang experience was interesting but after buying the LTD, I see what kind of mad quality can be had and have the chance to try before buying as well as not having a fake name on the headstock.

Not that it wasn't a great guitar because it was but because I had to raise funds for a Classic Player Jazzmaster :) My recent acquisition of the LTD is my fill for LP style and I've been wanting a Jazzmaster for over a year and just haven't made the purchase. HelloMusic.com had them for $600 yesterday so I bought one and am eagerly awaiting the shipping notice.

Got $300 for the Gibsun - posted it on CL at 12 noon and it was flagged for removal ~7pm. In that time I got emails from 7 interested parties and a guy came and bought it that evening. Easiest CL sale I've made in a long time. Guy had bought a few of these "Gibsuns" and loved them - takes those to bars instead of his good gear lol!