Modeling vs. Vintage

[Nelskie]

I know there are several posts regarding this very topic throughout the forum. However, it seems to be very applicable to this section, as much of what drives people to modeling technology is its ability to emulate vintage gear. Or, at least to some capacity.

Presently, I own two modeling amps - a Fender Cyber Twin, and a PODxt. Both do a very nice job in capturing some of the key nuances of many vintage pieces of equipment. As a matter of fact, they do a good enough job for me to continually re-assess my "need" for vintage gear. Yes, I think it'd be fun to own a vintage piece of equipment, and certainly, it would be used frequently, and enjoyed fully. However, there are 20+ presets on my Cyber Twin that model some of the best-ever amps Fender ever put out. And quite a few of them really kick butt, too. And the PODxt - man, where do I start?

As modeling technology gets better and better (and it will, trust me), it would be interesting to know just how much it affects people to buy it, rather than vintage gear. Yes, we know that the vintage market will always be there. And yes, there is no substitute for the real thing. Yet I consider myself smack dab in the middle of the target market for vintage gear retailers / sellers. Let's review: 1.) I'm an experienced player; 2.) I love playing; 3.) I am somewhat knowledgeable about various makes / models of vintage gear; 4.) I have a growing affliction for the tone of old Fender amps; 5.) I have the financial means needed to acquire. If you look at it that way, I should probably already own something in the vintage vein. Surprisingly, I don't.

So, would I give up my Cyber Twin for a vintage Blackface Super Reverb? Well, that would be a tough call. The CT does so many things so well - it would be hard for me to justify giving up one for the other. Yet the thought of that impeccably clean, chimey late 60's Fender tube tone gets me all dizzy.

I guess if I were to assess my opinion present day, I am a strong supporter of both vintage gear, and modeling technology. As a matter of fact, it would be my opinion that the advent of modeling has actually increased the awareness, and desirability, of a lot of vintage gear. Right now, I'm very happy with both of my modelers. But at some point down the road, there will be a need to park a vintage Super Reverb down at Nelskie Studios. Ain't nuthin' like the real thing, baby!

[SuperSwede]

Very interesting topic...
I am also a fan of amp modeling technology, and has been one since the middle 90´s when I bought a Boss GX-700 COSM processor. So much has happened since then, and amp sims like PodXT, Tonelab and even software solutions like Guitar Rig now comes very close to the actual amps it tries to emulate.
I am also a big fan of tube amps, and nothing would be sweeter than actually owning a vintage fender tweed amp but that is not possible for me at the moment from a monetary/marriage perspective. However, as a home-player its invaluable to be able to have 16 of the most sought after tube amps readily available when I need them (and if its in the middle of the night, at headphone level). Also, a modeler can sit on a desk in a small room, I wouldnt say the same about 16 amps + 10 cabinets. The hassle of amp/mic/mixer setup is also something that you can avoid when you use a modeler. Its all very convenient and it just works great!

There will probably be a vintage/reissue amp at my absolut studio as well in the future, but it will always go hand in hand with whatever modeling technology I use at that time..

[kerc]

I make it a very simple choice for me:

Live playing - Tube or SS amps.
Recording - Digital modeling.

[6STRINGS 9LIVES]

Great Topic , Current modeling technology is amazing, I have used the podxt as well as some flextone amps and they are well beyond a reasonable fascilime of the amps and cabs they endeavor to replicate . Of course some modlers are far superior to others and those on the higher end are invaluable as recording tools and function great as live giggable equipment . If you are waiting for a but from me you wont get one , though i'm a self admitted vintage head , I am of the belief that modelers are the future and the technology will become infinitely better than that which we have today , the convenience and affordability of these units make the whole thing a no brainer ..they rock .
Still there is a place for the venerable vintage amp in anyone's arsenel of gear .. like Nelskie said .."aint nuthin' like the real thing "..its hard to replicate the nuances in tone of an aged piece of 50 year old technology , and thats exactly what they are , 40-50 year old technology that was the best that could be had in its day , and has over that time became legendary and coveted ...Both modelers and vintage tube has a place , both are examples of technologies that represent what can be achieved in the persuit of that perfect tone , and thats really what its all about .. I would venture to say that interest in Vintage Gear will increase because of the accessability of modelers...But ...those old fenders and vox's and marshalls and silvertones , supros , magnatones , ampegs , hiwatts etc.. ARE NOT GOING TO GET ANY CHEAPER , my advice is to belly up to the bar and order yourself an adult portion of sonic happiness , grab one of those old tube legends before they too like their 6 and 4 string cousins are priced beyond the reach of mere mortals ... 6S9L

[Nelskie]

. . . my advice is to belly up to the bar and order yourself an adult portion of sonic happiness . . .

My, my, my . . . that description is pure poetry. The literary crowd gives that one a standing ovation. Encore! Encore!

As for your advice on considering a vintage amp purchase now - wise words indeed. Not surprisingly, my Cyber Twin & PODxt have only added fuel to the fiery desire I already have to own a vintage Fender amp.

[jpfeifer]

Nelskie,

I'm with you on the modeling technology!
The biggest reason that I started using modeling amps is that they can get you in the "ballpark" for many of the great tones of vintage amps, without having to spend a ton of money. Do they sound exactly like the real thing? Well that's debatable, and it depends on the modeling amp and the particular amp model. But do they deliver enough of the characteristic sounds to be extremely useful for live playing and recording? -- absolutely!

Without a modeling amp, I would have to carry at least 3 (or more) different amps with me to get the same amount of sounds, and then I would have to worry about re-tubing them, working out a way to switch between them, etc.

But I do think that there will always be a market for vintage gear whether it's for the purpose of collecting or just to get all the feel and vibe from the real deal.

But for me, I'd much rather invest my money in a good modeling amp with a lot sounds than to spend a lot on a vintage amp that's less flexible. But that's just me.

-- Jim

[t_ross33]

This article, and subsequent home-trials sold me on modelling technology:

http://thestompbox.net/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleID=10

Even with my RP-80, a cheapy modeller by any definition, I'm getting some killer tones thru my old Yammie 2x12, which is more of an "instrument" amp that a true guitar amp thus getting me closer to the flat response-full range mentioned in the article.

Since we do all cover material, I have no need (in this venture) for my own "sound". But I do need to capture, as close as possible, the tone of the original recording. Modellers and MFX are just what the doctor ordered. Looking towards a higher-end modeller/MFX (Boss GT-8 or similar) and dual FRFR amps for glorious stereo bedazzlement in the future.

As I mature (er...if I mature) as a player and find/develop my own tone, I can see a day where a specific amp, pedal chain, p'up etc. whether vintage or no, will have a place. But for now I'm happy packing multiple amps/cabs into a package I can carry in my gig bag

[Tim]

[QUOTE=t_ross33]This article, and subsequent home-trials sold me on modelling technology:

http://thestompbox.net/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleID=10

Kewlpack has an awesome forum and writes some incredible articles. His forum is always changing for the better. I read that particular article last year.

[Tinky-Winky]

Well, I am certainly very pleased with my vox modelling amplifier, but I do think that if the "ultimate" in one of the amp models was required, then the real vintage version would be the only way to go. Also, I have noted on this forum that many people stop using their modelling amps in favour of something with valves - i.e. the valve junior, so the magic of just the one "sound" can be better than lots of good, if not amazing tones. I am also curious as to what the view of "vintage" modelling amps will be in 50 years time - will people say they are better or worse sounding?

[Robert****]

I like to have both. I have a great tube amp (Reverend Hellhound), and a great Vox modeling amp. I bring both to gigs, so I have a backup. I tend to use the Vox on quiter gigs, and the Hellhound for louder blues gigs. I find I want to really get a tube amp working hard in order to get a great tone. Usually, that translates into LOUD, but I know smaller wattage amps like the Epi Valve JR changes this.

The modeling amp is also much more versatile, and that is great for playing in a cover band. I use old analog pedals with my modeling amp, as the crazy bastard I am. I always try to get my own sound, and I don't think I could go 100% digital. Tube amps rule for their tone, but for versatility, a modeling amp wins most of the time. That's why I have so many pedals! I can make my tube amp sound fantastic and versatile. The main problem is my lack of skills in stepdancing on all my pedals...

[Leonidas]

I also think that both vintage and modeling have their places, although I think the place for vintage gear is a much narrower window than that of modeling. For myself (a recent college grad with very little money) the modeling avenue was the way to go. I can get all kinds of tones out of my Vox, and to me, they sound much better than I need them to at this point in my playing. While a good vintage Fender might be in a class of its own, I'm willing to sacrifice that little bit extra "class" to have a more versatile, affordable amp.

[Lev]

"the advent of modeling has actually increased the awareness, and desirability, of a lot of vintage gear"

That's really a great way to look at it - I really had no idea when it came to the subtleties of amp tone until I got a POD about 5 years ago. Now everytime I hear a new recording I'm constantly trying to figure out what amp the guitarist is using. I've become a tube amp enthusiast but that doesn't mean I want to or need to own 16 different tube amps.

I do think however that Vox valvetronix has stepped it up a notch by combining modelling with real tubes. I find they've taken the digital edge off the modelled sound and the amp now reacts favourably to subtle increases/decreases of guitar volume & picking technique just like 'the real thing'.

I'm sure fender, marshall, peavy etc will respond with similar or better products in the years to come. It's actually an exciting time to be a guitarist on a budget!!! I know that 10 years ago I couldn't have dreamed of being able to afford enough gear to make a decent sounding recording from home. Now with a fairly basic PC, a PODxt & some software the only limitation is my own creativity . Makes me wonder where will we be in another 10-15 years.

[SuperSwede]

Makes me wonder where will we be in another 10-15 years.

Of course by then we will visually get emulated versions of the modeled amps. Just press the UK80´s button on your VOX futuretronix and BOOM the virtual 3d visualizer (patent pending) will transform into a smoking JCM800 stack.

[Carlström]

Of course by then we will visually get emulated versions of the modeled amps. Just press the UK80´s button on your VOX futuretronix and BOOM the virtual 3d visualizer (patent pending) will transform into a smoking JCM800 stack.

i see a problem already with that......smoking is getting banned in more and more places so that smoking JCM800 won't be of much use

[SuperSwede]

Duh... its VIRTUAL smoke.

[Spudman***]

Maybe, but the smoke is only going to be authentic enough to believe only if the sampling rate is high enough to capture all the nuances of the original smoke.

[SuperSwede]

Obviously the Behringer Virtualamp will get low rate reviews just because its low-end smoke. Owners of finer amps, such as the Fender Cyber Tramp will get smoke so real that it can cause asthma.

[Plank_Spanker]

I own 2 Johnson Millennium modelers and I gigged with them for 5 years. I switched to a tube combo a few months ago. Great thread!

My take:

Modelers are only as good as the owners. The factory presets are just starting points. You need to really dig into the patches to get the most from the amp.

Modelers are great for playing gigs if you need to cover a lot of ground with your sound in just one amp.

The downside of modelers:

They lack any sort of touch response, and that is a huge part of a "vintage" amp's sound.

If you've played the actual "vintage" amp, no modeler is going to sound even close. They can't capture the subtle nuances that often defy description, but define the sound of the amp.

Modeling technology is coming up fast but, to the discerning player, nothing will replace the "real deal".

[SuperSwede]

The downside of modelers:

They lack any sort of touch response, and that is a huge part of a "vintage" amp's sound.

I dont think that is true anymore, just check out a Tonelab/PodXT. Those units can deliver a very responsive playing experience.