Lessons learned from Axe-FX

[Eric***]

Hi all,

Been doing some reading recently, and I was wondering what you think something like Axe-FX will do to amp modeling. It seems to receive almost universal praise from those who have one, most notably (on here, anyway) Plank. I'm very curious about the whole amp-modeling movement in general, and this seems to be a very large leap forward in the technology.

I don't own any high-end gear, so an $1800 modeler is obviously out of the question for me, but do you think some of the things implemented by Fractal Audio will be picked up by other manufacturers? What lessons do you think the industry learned as a whole? What is it that makes Axe-FX so much more effective than other modelers, anyway?

Curious for your input on the subject.

[Robert****]

Good question. I guess it sounds better than other modeling units, but to be honest, I think the "POD Xwhatever they are called nowadays" would work just as well for me. It's not 100% as good sounding as the Axe-FX, but it's close enough that it wouldn't matter that much to me. Plus I would save dough....

In the end, I would rather take a tube amp and my pedals for any kind of gig that I'm doing. I feel out of my element with modeling boxes like that anyway.

[Eric***]

In the end, I would rather take a tube amp and my pedals for any kind of gig that I'm doing. I feel out of my element with modeling boxes like that anyway.

Hmm. So I know this discussion has occurred before, but is there anything a modeler could do to change that for you? I would guess you like all of the stuff like the sag, feedback possibilities, low-volume clean-up, and other playability aspects of the tube amp, along with the simple EQ and gain/volume knob interface, right? I'm absolutely not trying to trivialize your views; just trying to understand the tube amp thing. I like tube amps, but I'm not as dedicated to them as most are.

If that same interface and those same characteristics were available in a modeler (kind of the plug-in-and-go thing instead of endless futzing), would that do it for you? How about if something like that was $200 instead of $1800? Just thinking about what the future might hold and where the threshold is for a lot of people.

[Robert****]

It's just that feeling and sound and "texture" of a good tube amp pushing air is unbeatable to me. A modeler through a good tube amp would probably work just fine too.

[hubberjub***]

I've only heard good things about the Axe-FX. Like most modeling amps I think it would be great for someone who needed a lot of tones for a cover band. If you are lookng for your own sound I don't think it would be a good investment. Plank has an outstanding tube amp (Germino) and I think he has the skills to put it to good use. The modeling stuff is great and will continue to improve but the cost for an Axe-FX could easily cover the cost of a good tube amp which would allow you to find your own sound. To me, that is more important.

[Eric***]

Hmm. Do you know any of the technical differences about the Axe-FX that make it stand out in a sea of modelers? I think it has something like an Intel chip powering it, yes? I wonder if anything like that will catch on in the Digitech/Line 6/Boss/Vox arena.

BTW, I haven't mentioned this yet, but I think your avatar is awesome.

[deeaa*]

I'd LOVE to get to trying the AxeFx. I believe in modelers and so far the best I've tried have been Tech-21 stuff---a Pod Xt was pretty good too, though. Anyway, they are great for recording.

BUT I doubt they'll ever be able to model every aspect of tube amphs...just the other day I was playing alone, and I was like letting the guitar just be, not play it, then rap on the wood to get some background 'womm' sounding there and then played some careful notes, hit the plank again, swept the strings over the headstock for some 'plinks' and stuff like that...I don't use any reverb but as you know, a pure tube amp almost sounds like there's a reverb, all those tiny sounds and resonations cascade and twinkle around...and with no FX and hardly any notes, it sounded just awesome...

Now if I record that, it's almost impossible to capture how it is live. But that's what you never get with anything digital. Or even too much analog FX...it just doesn't live any more. All I need to do is plug in more than 2 pedals and it's already gone all to hell soundwise; the natural 'reverb' feel of the tube resonances is gone and I might as well play an SS amp.

Yet on the record it can sound even better than the real thing.

[Plank_Spanker]

Hi all,

Been doing some reading recently, and I was wondering what you think something like Axe-FX will do to amp modeling. It seems to receive almost universal praise from those who have one, most notably (on here, anyway) Plank. I'm very curious about the whole amp-modeling movement in general, and this seems to be a very large leap forward in the technology.

I don't own any high-end gear, so an $1800 modeler is obviously out of the question for me, but do you think some of the things implemented by Fractal Audio will be picked up by other manufacturers? What lessons do you think the industry learned as a whole? What is it that makes Axe-FX so much more effective than other modelers, anyway?

Curious for your input on the subject.

The Axe FX set a new benchmark in sound quality and life like amp response for modelers. It is a very large leap in modelling technology. Fractal Audio invested a lot of time and money getting it right. The Axe FX also offers tweakable parameters that just aren't available with other modelers. Their approach is not to model an amp per se, but to let the user build his own amp within a patch with the ability to change such parameters as output transformers and speaker sim impulse response. I think this is what really sets the Axe FX apart from the herd. Fractal is also listening carefully to its customers and is continually improving and releasing new firmware, so the Axe Fx never really gets old.....it's a continuously improving product. Their customer support is beyond repproach - Cliff, the owner and designer, handles a lot of it personally and is sincerely behind his products.

Fractal raised the bar high, but it's a very competitve industry that I'm sure will respond to it.

[Plank_Spanker]

I'd LOVE to get to trying the AxeFx. I believe in modelers and so far the best I've tried have been Tech-21 stuff---a Pod Xt was pretty good too, though. Anyway, they are great for recording.

BUT I doubt they'll ever be able to model every aspect of tube amphs....

That is true............................but the Axe FX gets very close. I still own and play two tube amps.

[tot_Ou_tard]

Their approach is not to model an amp per se, but to let the user build his own amp within a patch with the ability to change such parameters as output transformers and speaker sim impulse response.

This is what I think is very cool. Someone will develop a sweet sound that no amp has made before.

What I use modelers for is for headphone practice. I don't tweak my Tonelab at all. I leave it parked on either a blackface or tweed model and I don't use any of the effects ever. It takes more time than I have as it is to practice, let alone tweak.

I'd love a simple modeler: gain, volume, treble, middle, bass that sounds really good and feels like a tube amp.

[Plank_Spanker]

This is what I think is very cool. Someone will develop a sweet sound that no amp has made before.

Exactly. Fractal's patch exchange site is loaded with lots of unique user patches. A good many Axe FX users just love to tinker with it. Fractal's PC patch editor is excellent - you basically fill in empty blocks with amps, cabs, FX, etc; dial in the parameters of each block, reroute blocks as you see fit....to your heart's content. You can also parallel two amp lines to mix as one sound - all in real time through a MIDI interface. The only limiting factor is CPU usage.

Fractal's philosophy is more like LEGO - just put the blocks together and build your own.

[Eric***]

I'd love a simple modeler: gain, volume, treble, middle, bass that sounds really good and feels like a tube amp.

I'm with you on that one. Right now, it seems like you always have to futz with settings on modelers to get the right sound, and there's considerably less tinkering with amps.

It could be that the tinkering is just segmented more with the traditional tube amp/pedalboard setup (e.g. set of knobs on delay pedal, separate set of knobs on amp, separate set of knobs on dirt pedal, amp includes master volume, etc.) in a way that makes sense to my head.

That said, I think the uber-modeler that I'm waiting for is something priced for hacks like me (< $300?), sounds and feels good right out of the box, and has a simpler interface like you described. There may be a long wait before that surfaces, but I'm not dissatisfied with things now, so I just like to observe as technology progresses.

I do think Axe-FX is a very important step in the whole evolution of modelers.

[deeaa*]

Well before long they can get the AxeFX out as a computer program as well I'm sure...since it's all digital there's no reason it couldn't be ported to PC's as well.

However I do also think that would NOT be in their best interest, given the amount of piracy...

[deeaa*]

I'm with you on that one. Right now, it seems like you always have to futz with settings on modelers to get the right sound, and there's considerably less tinkering with amps.

It could be that the tinkering is just segmented more with the traditional tube amp/pedalboard setup (e.g. set of knobs on delay pedal, separate set of knobs on amp, separate set of knobs on dirt pedal, amp includes master volume, etc.) in a way that makes sense to my head.

That said, I think the uber-modeler that I'm waiting for is something priced for hacks like me (< $300?), sounds and feels good right out of the box, and has a simpler interface like you described. There may be a long wait before that surfaces, but I'm not dissatisfied with things now, so I just like to observe as technology progresses.

I do think Axe-FX is a very important step in the whole evolution of modelers.

Well, Tech-21 modeling is exactly that for me.

I had the PSA-1 rackmount, but even that was too much tinkering for me, and I now have the TM-10. Can't go wrong with it, only a couple of knobs and the most convincing rock guitar D/I sound I've ever played.

[Plank_Spanker]

Well before long they can get the AxeFX out as a computer program as well I'm sure...since it's all digital there's no reason it couldn't be ported to PC's as well.

However I do also think that would NOT be in their best interest, given the amount of piracy...

That is most likely why there is no PC version.

[Plank_Spanker]

It could be that the tinkering is just segmented more with the traditional tube amp/pedalboard setup (e.g. set of knobs on delay pedal, separate set of knobs on amp, separate set of knobs on dirt pedal, amp includes master volume, etc.) in a way that makes sense to my head.

That's a good way to look at it. To get the most out of the Axe FX requires a good bit of tweaking, and a certain mindset to get there. I don't spend endless hours tweaking mine, though. I use 9 patches now, and they were easy to dial in. It's even easier with the PC editor. The blocks are laid out in a signal chain (just like pedals - the pedals even look like pedals), so it's easy to visualize what you're doing.

Most modelers, Axe FX included, sound passable right out the box. It's up to the user to make it shine.

[Eric***]

Well before long they can get the AxeFX out as a computer program as well I'm sure...since it's all digital there's no reason it couldn't be ported to PC's as well.

However I do also think that would NOT be in their best interest, given the amount of piracy...

The only good way to defeat that is with something like the licensing/activation that Line 6 does, which is a big pain in the keister. I don't particularly blame a company like Fractal for keeping it off of the computer.

[deeaa*]

In some ways the companies shoot themselves in the leg with those anti-piracy registration things. It's gone so far that I for instance have actually bought some software I've found such a pain in the a$$ to get to work with those registration things and dongles and whatnot, it's been a LOT easier just to download a pirated copy and use that instead.

After all, I've bought the soft so I feel that's quite legit.

And with the pirated software you usually don't even need to install them, they work off a USB stick even, whereas the 'real' versions may make quite a mess of the registry etc.

[Eric***]

In some ways the companies shoot themselves in the leg with those anti-piracy registration things. It's gone so far that I for instance have actually bought some software I've found such a pain in the a$$ to get to work with those registration things and dongles and whatnot, it's been a LOT easier just to download a pirated copy and use that instead.

After all, I've bought the soft so I feel that's quite legit.

And with the pirated software you usually don't even need to install them, they work off a USB stick even, whereas the 'real' versions may make quite a mess of the registry etc.

Haha, good point. I have not done too much looking, but have not found much in the way of guitar software. I try to use real freeware (e.g. Audacity) whenever possible.