Tweed Champ (5F1) in Europe?

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Hello, I'd like to buy a 5F1 Tweed Champ style amplifier in Europe.
I'd like to stay below 600 EUROs (roughly $800), shipping and taxes included. I'd like a nice speaker in it (a Jensen P8R maybe), and want it to be wired point-to-point.

My first choice would be a Victoria 518 or 5112, but with shipping to Europe and custom taxes it would be several hundred dollars more expensive than what I can afford at the moment. My second choice would be a Fender 57 Champ reissue, but that's also quite pricy (in Europe it costs about 900 EUROs).

I found this kit at a store in Germany ("Tube Amp Doctor"):

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/english...F1-pid-840.htm

but with shipping and a speaker (not included in the kit) it comes to almost exactly 600 EUROs. The problem is that I've only built pedals so far, I don't own a drill which seems to be required, I'm afraid I might electrocute myself, and while I have some soldering experience, I don't trust my cabinet work skills. And the price doesn't allow me room for paying somebody else to build the kit.

Does anybody know where an already built 5F1 Tweed Champ clone can be bought from, either in Europe, or cheap enough from the US (yes I'm also considering eBay )?

Thanks!

[tunghaichuan***]

If you're looking for something that looks and sounds like a real 5F1 tweed Champ, then that kit from the Tube Amp Doctor is probably your best bet.

You might take a look at this kit:

http://ceriatone.com/productSubPages...ChampUltra.htm

That kit is a bit more complicated than the TAD kit, but it is more versatile tone wise. It doesn't look like a real 5F1, but it should be able to cop the tone. You'd have to convert the prices your Euros, though. And it does come with a head shell so you'd have to have your own speaker cabinet.

One of the main limitations of the original tweed Champ is the small speaker and cab. If your going for that sort of tone, then the TAD kit would be better.

Mojotone does make a kit, but it is like $500 before shipping. American-made products tend to be very expensive.

Really, the 5F1 amp is as simple as it gets. Any simpler and it isn't a guitar amp. Those amps are not hard to build, but if it doesn't power up the first time it could be hard to debug if you don't have the necessary trouble shooting skills. .

As for a drill, maybe you could borrow one?

Hello, I'd like to buy a 5F1 Tweed Champ style amplifier in Europe.
I'd like to stay below 600 EUROs (roughly $800), shipping and taxes included. I'd like a nice speaker in it (a Jensen P8R maybe), and want it to be wired point-to-point.

My first choice would be a Victoria 518 or 5112, but with shipping to Europe and custom taxes it would be several hundred dollars more expensive than what I can afford at the moment. My second choice would be a Fender 57 Champ reissue, but that's also quite pricy (in Europe it costs about 900 EUROs).

I found this kit at a store in Germany ("Tube Amp Doctor"):

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/english...F1-pid-840.htm

but with shipping and a speaker (not included in the kit) it comes to almost exactly 600 EUROs. The problem is that I've only built pedals so far, I don't own a drill which seems to be required, I'm afraid I might electrocute myself, and while I have some soldering experience, I don't trust my cabinet work skills. And the price doesn't allow me room for paying somebody else to build the kit.

Does anybody know where an already built 5F1 Tweed Champ clone can be bought from, either in Europe, or cheap enough from the US (yes I'm also considering eBay )?

Thanks!

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If you're looking for something that looks and sounds like a real 5F1 tweed Champ, then that kit from the Tube Amp Doctor is probably your best bet.

Yep, looks like it. Another thing that worries me about a kit (besides getting electrocuted, etc.) is that it's resale value is very very low compared to the initial cost.

I've actually emailed the TAD guys and asked for a quote if they build the kit themselves and ship the finished product to me, and they came up with 260 EUR for the build alone (that's roughly $350). Would that be a reasonable price for that sort of thing, or just their way of telling me no without saying no?

You might take a look at this kit:

http://ceriatone.com/productSubPages...ChampUltra.htm

[...]

Mojotone does make a kit, but it is like $500 before shipping. American-made products tend to be very expensive.

The Ceriatone is roughly the same ammount before shipping too, if I get a cabinet and everything from them.

As for American-made products and their prices, I'm finding out the hard way that they're actually not that expensive compared to the alternative. The quote for the pre-built TAD kit I've got from them was 823 EUROs for the amp + 22 EUROs for shipping, and a Fender 57 Champ is 900 EUROs in Europe. A Victoria 518 is 990 EUROs. So if I'd really have no choice but to get up in the 800+ EUROs, I'd rather get something that will keep it's resale value rather than some noname kit.

Really, the 5F1 amp is as simple as it gets. Any simpler and it isn't a guitar amp. Those amps are not hard to build, but if it doesn't power up the first time it could be hard to debug if you don't have the necessary trouble shooting skills. .

As for a drill, maybe you could borrow one?

Obviously, the drill is not the main problem, but rather just one in a series of shortcomings I feel I have as a builder.

I guess the only way that financially makes sense (though sense doesn't seem like a word I should continue to use in connection with this thing) is to get the kit, try to get it right the first time, when there are no dangerous voltages in the caps, etc. - and if I screw up get it to a tech to fix it, which would hopefully cost less than the build would.

[tunghaichuan***]

Yep, looks like it. Another thing that worries me about a kit (besides getting electrocuted, etc.) is that it's resale value is very very low compared to the initial cost.

If that is a major consideration, then I wouldn't build a kit. Most of the time you're lucky if you can get half of what you put into it. Looking at it from a buyer's point of view, they don't know how skilled the person doing the assembly was. They don't know if there are any hidden problems, or even potential problems.

I've actually emailed the TAD guys and asked for a quote if they build the kit themselves and ship the finished product to me, and they came up with 260 EUR for the build alone (that's roughly $350). Would that be a reasonable price for that sort of thing, or just their way of telling me no without saying no?

That's a fair price. It takes a while to build one of those amps, despite the low level of complexity. Figure it takes at least 10 hours or so. At the minimum, the tech is making $35/hour which isn't bad. Of course the longer it takes, the less the tech makes but I think someone who has build that amp several times before and is used to working on amps should be able to crank that circuit out in 10 hours or less.

The Ceriatone is roughly the same ammount before shipping too, if I get a cabinet and everything from them.

So really, it depends on your needs/desires. Do you want a fairly accurate replica? Do you want a versatile tone machine? Will the small speaker be okay tone wise? Etc.

As for American-made products and their prices, I'm finding out the hard way that they're actually not that expensive compared to the alternative. The quote for the pre-built TAD kit I've got from them was 823 EUROs for the amp + 22 EUROs for shipping, and a Fender 57 Champ is 900 EUROs in Europe. A Victoria 518 is 990 EUROs. So if I'd really have no choice but to get up in the 800+ EUROs, I'd rather get something that will keep it's resale value rather than some noname kit.

If resale is important to you, and it seems like it is, you might look for a used Victoria or Fender amp. Either is going to keep a fairly high resale value, unlike the kit amp, which you will take a big hit. It will never be worth anywhere near what you paid for it. You may be able to find a decent used Fender or Victoria.

Obviously, the drill is not the main problem, but rather just one in a series of shortcomings I feel I have as a builder.

I guess the only way that financially makes sense (though sense doesn't seem like a word I should continue to use in connection with this thing) is to get the kit, try to get it right the first time, when there are no dangerous voltages in the caps, etc. - and if I screw up get it to a tech to fix it, which would hopefully cost less than the build would.

That is a good way to go, but only if you are 100% sure you will build it correctly. The problem is that if you make a seemingly minor mistake, you could cause lots of damage to the amp. I've heard of first-time builders shorting out transformers, and those are the most expensive part of the amp. There may be collateral damage as well, and other parts that would have to be replaced. Kit amps can go from being a real bargain to an endless money pit in a hurry. Not trying to be the voice of gloom and doom, but I do want to give you some realistic, possible scenarios as a first time amp builder.

Having said all that, if it were my money, I would look at first buying a used Fender or Victoria. If you can't then I would save up the extra cash to get a either a new Fender or Victoria.

Building amps is a fun hobby, but it isn't a good way to save money. Nor is it a good investment.

Just my $.02 as a long-time amp building hobbyist.

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That's a fair price. It takes a while to build one of those amps, despite the low level of complexity. Figure it takes at least 10 hours or so. At the minimum, the tech is making $35/hour which isn't bad. Of course the longer it takes, the less the tech makes but I think someone who has build that amp several times before and is used to working on amps should be able to crank that circuit out in 10 hours or less.

You're probably right, however there were two reviews on the TAD website for the kit. One of the reviewers said it took him 6 hours to build, and the other one said it took him 5. Assuming that the TAD builder is at least as good as the second guy, that would be $175 at $35/hour, which is half price. And that doesn't take into account the fact that A) the TAD builder is probably generally faster and more experienced than a random customer, and B) he doesn't need to waste any time reading the instructions since he probably designed the amp and picked the components in the first place. But that's nitpicking on my part, and I'll leave it at that. We'll agree that TAD's was a fair price, just that it took me out of my budget range.

So really, it depends on your needs/desires. Do you want a fairly accurate replica? Do you want a versatile tone machine? Will the small speaker be okay tone wise? Etc.

An accurate replica. I've played a Victoria 518 and basically want an amp just like that. Don't care for versatile tone machines, I love simplicity (one pickup guitars and amps that just nail it with just a volume knob). I have no problem with the low wattage or the speaker, and actually prefer the small size that lets you carry it around. I'm neither confused about what I want, nor unsure if the classic 5F1 amp tone suits me.

If resale is important to you, and it seems like it is, you might look for a used Victoria or Fender amp. Either is going to keep a fairly high resale value, unlike the kit amp, which you will take a big hit. It will never be worth anywhere near what you paid for it. You may be able to find a decent used Fender or Victoria.

Yes, I'm afraid resale is important to me. Unfortunately. It's a shaky economy, and I'm not a rich person (obviously ). I wouldn't want to have to sell it, but if I'm forced to, the resale value does count.

So yes, I'll be looking for a used Victoria or Fender, or come brighter times I'll buy a new one. If anyone's got a good deal for me on one of those please let me know .

Thank you tunghaichuan, your advice has been extremely useful. I really appreciate your help!

[tunghaichuan***]

An accurate replica. I've played a Victoria 518 and basically want an amp just like that. Don't care for versatile tone machines, I love simplicity (one pickup guitars and amps that just nail it with just a volume knob). I have no problem with the low wattage or the speaker, and actually prefer the small size that lets you carry it around. I'm neither confused about what I want, nor unsure if the classic 5F1 amp tone suits me.

Great, knowing what you want in an amp is a useful thing to know. I had the chance to play a buddy's real '58 tweed Champ, it sounded glorious. A newly made one will take a little while to break in. If you luck out and find a nice used one, it may already be broken in.

Yes, I'm afraid resale is important to me. Unfortunately. It's a shaky economy, and I'm not a rich person (obviously ). I wouldn't want to have to sell it, but if I'm forced to, the resale value does count.

So yes, I'll be looking for a used Victoria or Fender, or come brighter times I'll buy a new one. If anyone's got a good deal for me on one of those please let me know .

Even though the Victoria is about 100 Euros more than the Fender, I would take a Victoria over the Fender any day. The Victoria is built like the original; the Vic is a more accurate copy.

Thank you tunghaichuan, your advice has been extremely useful. I really appreciate your help!

You're very welcome. I was approaching this a hobbyist who has built at least 10-15 different versions of the tweed Champ/Princeton circuit. I've gotten more money invested in this that I'll ever be able to get back.

Let us know what you come up with.

[tunghaichuan***]

Update:

Just found this link today:

http://store.marshamps.com/product_i...kal4jddgp3v906

Complete kit from Marsh amps. You'd have to get the European power transformer upgrade for $20, but at $455 before shipping it might be a good deal. As you know, the Tweed Champ's cabinet is not very big, so shipping might be reasonable. You'd have to check with Marsh to see what it would be to Europe.

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Complete kit from Marsh amps. You'd have to get the European power transformer upgrade for $20, but at $455 before shipping it might be a good deal. As you know, the Tweed Champ's cabinet is not very big, so shipping might be reasonable. You'd have to check with Marsh to see what it would be to Europe.

Thanks! Will check with them, definitely looks like something to consider.
Sorry for the late reply, have been very busy the last couple of days.

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You're very welcome. I was approaching this a hobbyist who has built at least 10-15 different versions of the tweed Champ/Princeton circuit. I've gotten more money invested in this that I'll ever be able to get back.

Let us know what you come up with.

After much talking with various kit vendors in Europe and the US, and with Victoria and Fender distribuitors, I ended up pulling the trigger on the Tube Amp Doctor kit. It looks like it's using solid components, and frankly it's all I can afford right now and it doesn't look like I'll be able to afford a more expensive one in the foreseeable future. Hopefully with attention and proper regard for safety I should end up with a good amp.

Meanwhile I've built myself a capacitor discharge tool out of a pair of insulated alligator-clip-ended wires and a 5W 22kOhm resistor that I've put many layers of insulating tape around. I intend to hook one alligator clip to the chassis (ground) and put the other one on the end of a wooden chopstick when discharging caps, then check the results with a digital multimeter, so hopefully that'll be safe enough.

Also, I've been reading these:

http://angela.com/thetrainwreckpages.aspx
http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/taffram.htm
http://www.aikenamps.com/TechInfo_2.htm
http://www.freewebs.co.uk/valvewizard/index.html
http://www.diyguitarist.com/Misc/J_Darr.htm
http://ax84.com/p1.html
http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm

I still have about a week I think until the package gets delivered, so if there's anything else it would help to read I'd really appreciate the advice.

Thank you to everyone who replied in this thread, thanks for your time and suggestions!

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I've received and started building the amp, and sure enough the first problems appeared. Ironically, the part I was afraid of went smoothly - I've managed to drill just fine through the cabinet, the board and the chassis, and I've attached the input and output transformer to the chassis.

I've also populated the eylet board, and where applicable (i.e. no wires that need to be attached at a later point) I've started soldering the components to the eylets, using a 40W Weller soldering iron with a Philips-screwdriver head that everyone said would be OK to use. I've soldered many things many times before (pickups and pots, BYOC kits, etc.) so I do know how to wipe the tip, wet it with a bit of solder, keep the heat for 1-2 seconds on the joint, etc.

BUT, here's my great idea: measure the resistors before and after soldering.

Case 1: resistor on the schematic is 22kOhm, resistor before soldering is 23kOhm, resistor after soldering only one leg is 45kOhm

Case 2: resistor on the schematic is 68kOhm, resistor before soldering is 70kOhm, resistor after soldering only one leg is 85kOhm.

Obviously I'm both confused and annoyed. I've written TAD and am waiting for their reply. I've scanned the Internet for more details and found that this is supposed to happen only if the resistors have been improperly stored in a humid environment.

Any thoughts on the subject? Did you have similar experiences with carbon comp resistors?

[tunghaichuan***]

Case 1: resistor on the schematic is 22kOhm, resistor before soldering is 23kOhm, resistor after soldering only one leg is 45kOhm

Case 2: resistor on the schematic is 68kOhm, resistor before soldering is 70kOhm, resistor after soldering only one leg is 85kOhm.

Obviously I'm both confused and annoyed. I've written TAD and am waiting for their reply. I've scanned the Internet for more details and found that this is supposed to happen only if the resistors have been improperly stored in a humid environment.

Any thoughts on the subject? Did you have similar experiences with carbon comp resistors?

I usually only measure the resistors before I install them and then not worry about it.

As far as carbon comps go, they can be very noisy. And as you've found out there are problems with them absorbing too much moisture in a humid environment. I'm not convinced that they add any mojo to the circuit. If I were you, I'd replace them with carbon film.

I would put 2W metal oxide flame proof resistors in the power supply (decoupling resistors between the three PS caps).

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I usually only measure the resistors before I install them and then not worry about it.

As far as carbon comps go, they can be very noisy. And as you've found out there are problems with them absorbing too much moisture in a humid environment. I'm not convinced that they add any mojo to the circuit. If I were you, I'd replace them with carbon film.

I would put 2W metal oxide flame proof resistors in the power supply (decoupling resistors between the three PS caps).

I'll probably go that way with the resistors, first of all because they're easier to source locally. The metal oxide flame proof I didn't know about. I'll look it up.

[tunghaichuan***]

I'll probably go that way with the resistors, first of all because they're easier to source locally. The metal oxide flame proof I didn't know about. I'll look it up.

Another thing that just occurred to me: you may consider putting a 2W metal oxide resistor from about 470 ohms to 1.5k ohms from the second power supply cap to pin 4 on the octal socket. Pin four connects to the 6V6's screen grid. Installing this resistor will allow you to crank the amp by preventing the screen grid from drawing excessive current.

Normally a wire would go here, so you can just leave it off and connect the two points with the resistor. Make sure you insulate the leads.

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Another thing that just occurred to me: you may consider putting a 2W metal oxide resistor from about 470 ohms to 1.5k ohms from the second power supply cap to pin 4 on the octal socket. Pin four connects to the 6V6's screen grid. Installing this resistor will allow you to crank the amp by preventing the screen grid from drawing excessive current.

Normally a wire would go here, so you can just leave it off and connect the two points with the resistor. Make sure you insulate the leads.

Thanks, will take that under careful consideration! Could that possibly impact the amp's tone in any audible (read: undesirable ) way?

What do you mean exactly by "cranking the amp"? More headroom? I'm asking because I really want it to start breaking up as early as possible.

[tunghaichuan***]

Thanks, will take that under careful consideration! Could that possibly impact the amp's tone in any audible (read: undesirable ) way?

What do you mean exactly by "cranking the amp"? More headroom? I'm asking because I really want it to start breaking up as early as possible.

If you're worried about it affecting the tone, use a lower value resistor, i.e., 470 ohms, make sure it is at least 2W rated.

By cranking, I mean turning it all the way up. The tweed circuits tend to start to overdrive at about 3 or 4 on the volume control, turning it up all the way to 12 will push the 6V6 tube very hard. The screen grid resistor protects the screen grid under this condition. It ensures your tube's screen grid doesn't burn out.

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If you're worried about it affecting the tone, use a lower value resistor, i.e., 470 ohms, make sure it is at least 2W rated.

By cranking, I mean turning it all the way up. The tweed circuits tend to start to overdrive at about 3 or 4 on the volume control, turning it up all the way to 12 will push the 6V6 tube very hard. The screen grid resistor protects the screen grid under this condition. It ensures your tube's screen grid doesn't burn out.

Thanks for the advice! Will do.

I guess while I'm waiting for TAD's reply I'll wire the speaker.
IIRC, plus goes to the mono jack tip, minus to ground, right?

[tunghaichuan***]

Thanks for the advice! Will do.

I guess while I'm waiting for TAD's reply I'll wire the speaker.
IIRC, plus goes to the mono jack tip, minus to ground, right?

That is correct plus/hot goes to tip, negative/ground goes to ground.

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I would put 2W metal oxide flame proof resistors in the power supply (decoupling resistors between the three PS caps).

Do you mean after the first 3 caps, reading the layout left to right, and in parallel with the 4th cap? The kit comes with a green 5W 470 5% resistor there.

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If you're worried about it affecting the tone, use a lower value resistor, i.e., 470 ohms, make sure it is at least 2W rated.

Just took a peek inside a Victoria 518, and they use what looks like a 1W metal-film 460 resistor there. It looks like a metal-film resistor (it's blue, for one).