Idea for modelers: keep it simple

[DeanEVO_Dude]

I hear a couple of things going on here...
First: Amp modelers (i.e. Line 6 Spider, Peavey Vyper) are to expansive and complicated, Boss GT series way to tweekable and complex.
Second: Tech 21 and Behringer "modelers" have a simple enough interface, but do not cover enough "models."
So, what is desired here is a modeler with an interface that is simple like the Behringer GMX series, with maybe, 7 to 9 (?) amp models (instead of 3). Doesn't have to be digital, though digital is easier to get the nuances closer to the real thing. Am I on the right track?

Now, I don't have an ear that can hear much difference between two 12AX7 tubes, but what I have found and in my opinion, the Digitech RP series seem to have the simplest interface. For the amp modeling, you just select the amp, and the gian level and away you go... Newer ones (70, 90, 500, 1000) have a switch to turn on and off the cab modeling (4x12 Greenback, 4x10 Jensen, etc.) to go with the amp model you select, and they sound prety damn good, in my opinion. It is true, that with the streamlining of the interface (RP70/90) that they are not a flexable as others... but it sound like that is sorta what you are looking for. I have owned several of these, RP80 was my first, then an RP70, then RP90, now an RP55 (repackaged RP50)... I would love to have an RP1000 they seem to be the most flexable with the inclusion of an effects loop, somewhat selectable effects positioning and a few "stomp box" style effect-on/off type switching. All in all, a very nice floor box, to be sure.

There is a "but" to all of this amp modeling... How do you actually get the sound of a Marshall going into a pair of 4x12s out of an 8" to 12" single speaker, "custom" voiced guitar amp? Well, you can't, period. So, since I am a not so great player, I am a fairly avid reader, I have read some interesting things from Tom Scholz (Boston) that make me go, hmmmmm. Most importantly, in his mind, is that the amplifier and speakers be "full-range", meaning they be more like a stereo system than a guitar amp (full frequency as opposed to limited frequency response). If you have read a Sustainor manual, or seen the Rockman Stack amp setup, it reccomends that you use a "full range" set of speakers (his had a 15" woofer, 8" or 10" midrange and a horn/peizo tweeter) and a massive stereo amp (Carver 1.5t field effect 500 watt) for headroom. Clean guitar signals require about 3 times the amp power as a distorted signal for the same volume... sorry for the rant, back on topic.

Any way, what I am getting at is using an amp modeler with a guitar amp is not going to get you the sound of a JCM800. I think that this is one of the main reason that most people are dissapointed in the floor-style modelers (and amp-style, for that matter). But, if you are adventureous enough to connect your pedal style modeler (RP90 etc.) into your home stereo, and turn on the cabinet modeling, you might find the sound is prety darn close to the "amp" you have selected to play through. Just make sure that the volume is low enough that your amp has some headroom to play with, without clipping (home stereo amps and speakers don't like to be overdriven like guitar amps do!).

Anyway, just some thoughts on the subject... I hope I haven't bored everyone out of the discussion.

[markb]

...
There is a "but" to all of this amp modeling... How do you actually get the sound of a Marshall going into a pair of 4x12s out of an 8" to 12" single speaker, "custom" voiced guitar amp? Well, you can't, period. So, since I am a not so great player, I am a fairly avid reader, I have read some interesting things from Tom Scholz (Boston) that make me go, hmmmmm. Most importantly, in his mind, is that the amplifier and speakers be "full-range", meaning they be more like a stereo system than a guitar amp (full frequency as opposed to limited frequency response). If you have read a Sustainor manual, or seen the Rockman Stack amp setup, it reccomends that you use a "full range" set of speakers (his had a 15" woofer, 8" or 10" midrange and a horn/peizo tweeter) and a massive stereo amp (Carver 1.5t field effect 500 watt) for headroom. Clean guitar signals require about 3 times the amp power as a distorted signal for the same volume... sorry for the rant, back on topic....

Good point. But, when I had a Rockman, all it could do was that thin Tom Scholz (Boston) sound. BTW, has it occured to anyone else that More Than a Feeling was probably the template for quiet bit/loud bit grunge a la Nirvana despite all those claims about obscure British influences? But I digress...

You're right, of course. A model of a JCM800 into another guitar amp will produce a kind of Marshall flavoured overdrive and not the actual sound of a Marshall stack. Tech21 get very close to the speaker modelling in the Tradmark. Ch2 gives a lot more bottom end thump than Ch1 and switching feels and sounds more like a two amp rig than just channel switching, but in the end it is just a 1x12 combo so will never give the spread and weight of 4 12" Celestions banging away in a box.

FRFR speakers (e.g. straight to the PA) are definitely the way to go with modellers but then you end up with the band di'ed and the drummer in a soundproof box with headphones on, and how rock 'n' roll is that?

[deeaa*]

FRFR speakers (e.g. straight to the PA) are definitely the way to go with modellers but then you end up with the band di'ed and the drummer in a soundproof box with headphones on, and how rock 'n' roll is that?

THERE you hit the nail in the head...it sure ain't what rock is all about. Rock is largely just about...being alive with a capital A...as a youth I never cared for sweet sounds, I just wanted it loud and mean and dirty...the sound bit came later.

Nevermind if it sounds great or sweet or whatever, bring a big fracking amp onstage and crank the sucker and there is _always_ something to it...

[DeanEVO_Dude]

...

You're right, of course. A model of a JCM800 into another guitar amp will produce a kind of Marshall flavoured overdrive and not the actual sound of a Marshall stack. Tech21 get very close to the speaker modelling in the Tradmark. Ch2 gives a lot more bottom end thump than Ch1 and switching feels and sounds more like a two amp rig than just channel switching, but in the end it is just a 1x12 combo so will never give the spread and weight of 4 12" Celestions banging away in a box.

Exactly. I like the Tech 21 stuff, almost bought a Trademark 60, but it got away (yeah, like that's never happend to anyone before!). I kinda like modelers, but they come up a little short thru my H & K Edition Blue 30. That's ok though, I like my amp the way that it is, it sounds great (I'm even getting to like the Lead channel a bit). But, I digress...
An interesting idea, would be to have a modeling head that modeled historic/famous amps and sell cabinets to match. For example, most all 4x10 cabinets out are bass cabs... DeVilles have a 4x10, as does one of the most famous amps Fender ever made, the Bassman, even Marshall had a 4x10 cab for the early JTMs (I think). Does anyone make a 4x10 GUITAR cab? I personally like 10" speakers more than 12s. Very rare, indeed. Also, how do you get the open sound of a 2x12 Deluxe from a closed back cabinet? I think that Peavey had a 1x12 extention for the Classic that had a removable baffle board on the back, great idea. So, you make a 2x12, Jensen loaded, partially open back cab. You also make the standard 4x12, closed cab, and an oversized 1x12, open back, Celestion or Jensen. Between all the amp models and those several cabs, you just about got things covered.

FRFR speakers (e.g. straight to the PA) are definitely the way to go with modellers but then you end up with the band di'ed and the drummer in a soundproof box with headphones on, and how rock 'n' roll is that?

Soo right on that one! LOL

[markb]

Marshall made a few 4x10s to go with their Mosfet heads back in the 80s. Not a bad idea as a lot of the thump and weight comes from having four drivers in a sealed box more than the actual size of those drivers.

12" speakers are used because that's what would handle the power back in the 60s (like so much of what we now consider standard). The Celestions used in Voxes and (very) early Marshalls were only rated at 15w each. So Marshall needed four in a box for a 50w amp, eight for 100w. The double stack was invented by Pete Townshend's roadies

[Eric***]

THERE you hit the nail in the head...it sure ain't what rock is all about. Rock is largely just about...being alive with a capital A...as a youth I never cared for sweet sounds, I just wanted it loud and mean and dirty...the sound bit came later.

Nevermind if it sounds great or sweet or whatever, bring a big fracking amp onstage and crank the sucker and there is _always_ something to it...

I think you and markb have managed to point out something important: there's a sensibility in rock of being loud, raw, and powerful. It's as much a part of the music as the notes played.

I was talking to my wife about this today, and I think part of the attraction of playing the guitar is the iconic draw our favorite guitarists have/had. We want to emulate that, at least a little bit.

Part of that is just the power of amplification, and for some, they're looking for any excuse to have a full stack on stage, because that powerful amp is a part of the image of Slash or any other famous guitarist.

Bearing that in mind, I don't think people look to modellers to provide viable alternatives to the originals: they look to them for variety that won't break the bank. There are of course exceptions, but I think people would rather have that stack behind them that have a box on the floor and a few monitors, because it's part of why they started playing in the first place.

Me, I've never even owned a full rig and I'm sick of toting gear back and forth. I guess I'm just lazy. If I could get the levels right with everyone being DI'ed, I'd do it. I still like volume, but I also like convenience.

I could be wrong on all of this, but it's the conclusion I'm coming to.

[deeaa*]

(snip) but I think people would rather have that stack behind them that have a box on the floor and a few monitors, because it's part of why they started playing in the first place.

Me, I've never even owned a full rig and I'm sick of toting gear back and forth. I guess I'm just lazy. If I could get the levels right with everyone being DI'ed, I'd do it. I still like volume, but I also like convenience.

I could be wrong on all of this, but it's the conclusion I'm coming to.

Quite right! I always dreamed of a wall of Marshalls when I was young, but in reality I have never actually gigged with a 'big' rig - most of my gigging career was done first with 2x12" Fenders and then later a 4x10" Marshall with a rack setup on top. Right from the start I valued portability a lot - plus I had no money for a full stack and/or a van to haul it around...

And I always hated them 50W and 100W Fenders for being wayy too loud and open back anyway, so I _always_ had to play them too low for the sound to work. Quite often I also opted to just bring my rack and go d/i from it, or take the rack and a powered wedge monitor for myself.

But now I own a full - well half-stack - but a 4x12"+head rig anyway. I have only lugged it out to two gigs though, what gigs I have had I have played loaner gear ;-) but there sure is something to playing thru a 4x12", even if it's only at practice, and even if it's a sensible 36W which btw is pretty much perfect for a loud band it seems. Just enough wattage so I can totally crank it but not too loud still.

But, I'm, constantly thinking of ways to go d/i too...

[markb]

I haven't played through a 4x12 cabinet since 1982 nor am I likely to unless I'm sharing backline. Even then it was "only" an AC30 head driving it.

[Katastrophe]

As I understand it, Line 6 had a simpler modeller in the form of the Duoverb. It didn't last long on the market. They can be found pretty cheap on Craigslist and Ebay.

Line 6 also tried making a prototype modelling head for Dave Mustaine to emulate his Marshall sound. He just ended up going to Marshall preamps in his rack for live, and Marshall heads in the studio.

Cheap tweakability is the main selling point for modellers. The more features they can pack into an amph, the more value they can present to the buying public, and the more units they sell.