I may never buy a used guitar again...

[FrankenFretter***]

This scares me. Check it out; they have Gibsons, Fenders, Ricks, Gretschs, Ibanez, PRS, ESP, and Epis. They don't tell you much, but the photos of the products make me think that I probably am not wise enough to tell theirs from the real thing in person.

Anyone ever encounter one of these, or own one? I am curious. They'd make an interesting conversation or display piece, if nothing else.

http://samin.cn/shop/index.php?main_...7vem0lsd8u74d3

[aeolian]

http://samin.cn means it is based in China. I can tell you all the guitars you see are fakes. They may even be good fakes, but they are fake and unethical. I've also heard that sometimes they use the real manufacturers' pictures, so you can't just trust the pictures either. A few years ago there were a rash Chinese fake Gibsons on eBay. Google and you will find a bunch of info on how to tell the fakes from the real ones. Apparently they make fakes of all kinds of well known brands now.

[FrankenFretter***]

http://samin.cn means it is based in China. I can tell you all the guitars you see are fakes. They may even be good fakes, but they are fake and unethical. I've also heard that sometimes they use the real manufacturers' pictures, so you can't just trust the pictures either. A few years ago there were a rash Chinese fake Gibsons on eBay. Google and you will find a bunch of info on how to tell the fakes from the real ones. Apparently they make fakes of all kinds of well known brands now.

I was aware that it's a Chinese company and that they're not the real thing. All I'm saying is that it would be difficult for someone not well educated on the genuine article to tell the difference. I'm going through posts on other forums right now to see what people are saying about this particular company. I know there are, or were several other Chinese sites selling fakes as well. The US is purportedly putting pressure on the Chinese gov't to shut these places down.

So far I've read some very mixed reviews; some say they paid and got nothing, and some say that they got their guitars and they're fairly decent quality. Our own Otaypanky knows someone who owns one, and said it wasn't horrible. Apparently they used to lack control cavity covers as well as truss rod covers. I wouldn't expect them to be fantastic quality, but I am curious as to how good or bad they really are.

I know there are probably hundreds of these things floating around various Craig's Lists throughout the country. The whole reason I found the site is that someone had posted a Les Paul Supreme on my local CL, and another poster put out the warning about the fakes and included the URL of this particular Chinese site. The fellow was selling the LP Supreme for $400, by the way. That was a big tip off.

[DrumBob]

I did an article a few months ago in Premier Guitar about this subject: counterfeit guitars from China. It's quite a racket. I did some "covert" investigative journalism, pretending to be an interested customer getting ready to order from one of these Chinese bogus sites. The guitars are about as well made or a little worse than your average Epiphone. I have played several. From a distance, the average listener or concert/club attendee couldn't tell the guitars were fake, but up close, a trained eye can spot them immediately. The Chinese do all kinds of underhanded sh** to sell these things. It isn't against the law to buy one, but it is a moral decision only you can make. You're buying a fake, an instrument that violates the property of legitmate companies.

[player***]

as phony as they are the G black Jazz guitar G640 does catch the eye.BB style and for under three bills.let's face it not much Is made here anymore.tonal quality is what I wonder about

[MAXIFUNK]

I would be hard pressed to buy a used axe from someone on-line.
I look but doubt if I would ever pull the trigger.

[Ch0jin]

Yeah tempting, but extremely unethical. Having recently seen a fairly shocking doco series on China's counterfeiting (including fake medicine and food) the last thing they (Chinese fakers) need is more encouragement.

Oh and the US (or any other) government leaning on them? Extremely unlikely to have any effect at all. All we can do as consumers is try to avoid purchasing products that enable this industry.

[Ch0jin]

as phony as they are the G black Jazz guitar G640 does catch the eye.BB style and for under three bills.let's face it not much Is made here anymore.tonal quality is what I wonder about

I know what you mean, but I believe that if they really -were- in the business of making and marketing a decent instrument at super low cost (face it, a large part of the reason they'll be cheap is sweatshop style labour), then they would do what all the other legit Chinese vendors do and come up with a different brand name and slightly different shape. Thats the cheap guitar to try out. Not the one that needs a fake brand to attract customers.

[markb]

Tempting as they may be, people have been prosecuted for selling these fakes. If you want to buy one that's your affair, but when someone tries to sell one as the real thing, it's fraud. Even Epiphones get faked, I saw one for sale the other day at auction and I've seen more than a few of the "Gibsons" offered used.

[Commodore 64***]

Look at the neck and headstock. That's the same as the guitar I bought and got screwed on. The 12th fret dot inlays are too far apart and if you saw that logo up close, it's ridiculously obvious that it's fake.

That said, it's obvious to me now...heh, once bitten.

Also, on mine, there's a couple frets that are ridiculously screwed up. Like one side is pressed all the way in to the groove and the other has popped up a tad. Stuff that would NEVER pass Fender QA/QC.

12th fret inlay spacing give them away every time. Also there is no black walnut in the truss rod hole.

[otaypanky***]

The US is purportedly putting pressure on the Chinese gov't to shut these places down.

And the nerd in the playground asked the bully to stop picking on him, but that's not going to happen either ~ lol

The guy I know that had one,( it was a L.P. Supreme ), was bitten by the cheap guitar bug. A nice alternative to these rip off copies are SX guitars, available through Rondo Music. My friend bought a number of them. They were about the same quality. A pretty decent playing and sounding guitar for not a lot of money that's not ripping off anyone's trademark ~
Well, they do copy the bodystyle but ~~~

[FrankenFretter***]

It concerns me that there are probably a large number of these around, and places like pawn shops, Craig's List and Ebay are selling them as the real thing. Things like the inlay dots being too far apart (Good eye, C64) and frets not being bound aren't things that the average Joe or Jane (meaning people like me) are going to be wise to. If I had the urge to decorate my place with nice looking, name brand guitars, that's another story. Good wall art, but still not ethical, I know.

Drum Bob, I did see your article listed on Google when I was researching. Haven't had the chance to read it yet, but I will.

Otaypanky/Bob; You posted a reply on a thread about this on TGP, didn't you?

I also wonder how insurance companies might handle a claim of a stolen "Les Paul Supreme". I imagine you'd need a receipt to make that one stick.

[Commodore 64***]

And the nerd in the playground asked the bully to stop picking on him, but that's not going to happen either ~ lol

The guy I know that had one,( it was a L.P. Supreme ), was bitten by the cheap guitar bug. A nice alternative to these rip off copies are SX guitars, available through Rondo Music. My friend bought a number of them. They were about the same quality.

If the Rondo SX guitars were the same quality as the guitar I got ripped off on, nobody would buy them. It's that bad. I reckon the SX are orders of magnitude better.

Good eye C64

The only reason I can see these things, is that someone on TDPRI pointed them out to me when I bought that fake Tele on CL. If I can help any of you not make the same mistake I did, it makes my getting scammed worthwhile...well maybe not worthwhile, but it helps with the sting .

[Tig***]

Look at the neck and headstock. That's the same as the guitar I bought and got screwed on. The 12th fret dot inlays are too far apart and if you saw that logo up close, it's ridiculously obvious that it's fake.

Look at the bridge plates on these "Tele" copies. The gap between the pick guards shouldn't be there. The intonation screws are super long and almost out of threads.

[hubberjub***]

Sometimes you have to take a chance. I've bought almost all of my guitars used and online. There aren't many decent guitar stores in upstate NY. I've never had a problem. If a deal is too good to be true, it probably is. You just need to do your research before something bad happens. Gibson has a link to a page with ways to tell if a guitar is a counterfeit. I'm kind of a spec junkie. If it doesn't add up, pass on the deal. Use Paypal and Ebay. Yes, they charge fees but you have an electronic paper trail in case something goes wrong. Take your time and don't be afraid to walk away.

[syo***]

Interesting discussion thst seems to pop up now and again.
Generally the "copies" aren't so good. The companies in China that could make really good copies usually don't because they make more money doing good OEM business or (increasingly) promoting their own brands. Plus they wouldn't want to risk their foreign OEM business with such activity. I have seen some decent copies in China but most are really not worthwhile. Bad fretwork and wonky necks are common.

It's funny what the label does to the price and one's perception of value. What is often most impressive are the details like warranty cards, instruction manuals and even really nice holographic stickers as often found on pirated electronic/computer goods. Often the goods are not as impressive as the packaging.

With so many good, cheap guitars coming out of China it's best to stick with established sellers unless you're really into fake stickers, decals and manuals.

I must confess that I've bought quite a few umm... questionable items during my times in China (Always accidently, I swear ). $4-5 designer T-shirts can be surprisingly good, excellent bags from $10-$20. DVD's (with a 10% failure rate) for a buck. Luggage, great value etc. But forget the Fendors, Gibsins, Greches etc...

[the1percent]

A true musician or I would say even a novice will not be satisfied with the sound IMHO. That said, My friends would ohh and ahh if I had them hanging on the wall in my music room. Shirts jerseys etc are equally functional even if they are fake. A guitar...no. As the OP said great for display.

[markb]

Look at the bridge plates on these "Tele" copies. The gap between the pick guards shouldn't be there. The intonation screws are super long and almost out of threads.

That's the first thing I noticed. The second thing about those guitars is that the logos are wrong, wrong, wrong for the models even at that size and resolution (wrong, wrong, wrong = wrong size, wrong colour, wrong font).

Commodore64, although it's a good indicator, the 12th fret dot spacing is not always reliable. You'd never buy a Squier JV or early American Vintage on that basis. Fender don't even get their Fender copies right sometimes

[Ch0jin]

Well I found a site that has the documentary I was referring to.

If your interested have a peek. HERE

Whats interesting to me is that whilst looking for that website, I found a couple of car enthusiast boards where the debate raged over buying genuine Vs fake car parts. There are some disturbingly ill informed people around! (haha yeah I suppose thats not really news is it)

I just wanted to make a point here that several on other sites didn't grasp.

Some people will justify buying fakes with the argument that the quality is "just as good" or "good enough". I don't dispute that depending on the item, it might be, but my personal experience has shown me otherwise. My concern though is that the economic rationalization some people use is flawed.

You cannot look at the (perceived) cost of materials only and make a comparison.

Lets say for arguments sake that the raw materials for a genuine Fender cost $200 and the raw materials for a fake cost $150, yet the genuine sells for $1000 and the fake $200. "The fake is almost as good and for that price it can't be beat" is the cry of some.

Sure, a chunk of that premium price goes to marketing, executive salaries, distribution and retail margins, and likely a fatter margin than the fakers, but think about the percentage of the price you pay that goes to ensuring the factories are safe for workers. The money that goes into preventing sweat shop workers being chained to the bench for 20 hours a day.

Simply put, fakers aren't legal in China either, so they have no obligation to meet any standards. Particularly health and safety standards for workers. If I had children I sure as heck wouldn't want to support an industry that puts them in a factory at 12 years old and keeps them there.

I've also heard it said that worker conditions and so forth are "Not my problem, thats the Chinese governments problem". In part, sure. But it's mainly supply and demand. You can't support the fake trade and then blame a government for enabling you to do so.

Lastly, my favorite point.

Think about it. You're not really buying that fake Rolex, Les Paul, Gucci handbag or Nike trainers because they represent a good quality product for the price point. You're buying it because its got a brand name on it for less than the real thing. The fakers are cashing in on peoples vanity.

Realize that a fake guitar that costs $200 will almost certainly represent a poorer quality/price factor than an off brand $200 guitar, and you have to take a long hard look at yourself and ask why having a sticker on a headstock is so important to you that you'd play an inferior instrument.

As someone on a car forum said relating to fake performance parts. "I built my car to drive, not to stand around posing"

Don't think it's just luxury items like handbags and watches (and guitars) being faked. The Chinese government has found manufactures of fake food (see the doco for fake eggs) and most alarmingly, fake medicine.

I'm sure not many guys are going to stand up and shout that the ****** or Cialis they bought online ended up being fake (it almost certainly will be), but when people die because they unknowingly buy fake diabetes medication (as happened in the UK) it's time to educate yourselves.