Trade Tang

[Perfect Stranger]

The question begs to be asked, IF the guitars are SO good that they cannot be
differentiated from the actual big name guitars.....then what difference does it
make to the final player of the guitar? Does one play the headstock...or the
guitar?

[ZMAN]

The question begs to be asked, IF the guitars are SO good that they cannot be
differentiated from the actual big name guitars.....then what difference does it
make to the final player of the guitar? Does one play the headstock...or the
guitar?

The guitars "look" like the real thing. They do not "feel" or play like the real thing. To a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with the real thing, the looks can fool them. That is the market they are catering to. I would think a person who has owned higher end guitars would know that you get what you pay for, and would not buy one.
In my friends case he was a little skeptical, about the authenticity and did not give more than what a used Epi would bring. He traded the seller goods at that level, all at retail pawn prices. Being a Zak Wylde, unless you knew all the nuances of that guitar it looked good. But after a good comparison to a real one it was wayyyy off. When you plugged it in and played it, it was like the actual "log" that Les Paul first made.

[FrankenFretter***]

I think a lot of this was covered in this thread a few months ago.

On another forum that I...um...visit sometimes, a couple of the forumites claim to have ordered and recieved guitars from Trade Tang (which vendor at TT wasn't specified) that are of fairly good quality. One of the claimants just joined and it was his/her first post, so that's somewhat suspicious, but there was another member that had been around for a couple years that claims he has real Gibsons, but the knock-off has become his go-to guitar. Nobody has posted pics yet, so I take it all with a freaking huge grain of salt. Still, it is intriguing. I don't suppose we have any Fretters who have purchased guitars through one of the Chinese counterfeiter sites, and are willing to come out and give an honest review with pics? That would be very interesting to me. Not that I'm at all interested in buying one, but I have a strong sense of curiosity.

[NWBasser]

I think a lot of this was covered in this thread a few months ago.

On another forum that I...um...visit sometimes, a couple of the forumites claim to have ordered and recieved guitars from Trade Tang (which vendor at TT wasn't specified) that are of fairly good quality. One of the claimants just joined and it was his/her first post, so that's somewhat suspicious, but there was another member that had been around for a couple years that claims he has real Gibsons, but the knock-off has become his go-to guitar. Nobody has posted pics yet, so I take it all with a freaking huge grain of salt. Still, it is intriguing. I don't suppose we have any Fretters who have purchased guitars through one of the Chinese counterfeiter sites, and are willing to come out and give an honest review with pics? That would be very interesting to me. Not that I'm at all interested in buying one, but I have a strong sense of curiosity.

IMO, purchasing one of these counterfeits is a morally questionable thing to do. Apparently, nobody has any qualms about putting American workers out of a job or unsuspecting second-hand buyers getting ripped off. Imagine a kid saving all his lawn mowing money for years to get the Gibson, Fender, PRS of his dreams and ends up with one of these fakes. He's out of his hard-earned money for a poor-quality guitar that he can't sell for anywhere near his purchase price and is nearly unplayable for him to learn on.

Or, how about the hard-working skilled craftsmen and women in Corona and Nashville doing their best to build a high-quality instruments that will provide a lifetime of enjoyment to an aspiring musician only to find themselves in the unemployment line because their company went under. You don't have to cut too far into a company's bottom line for it to fail.

[Eric***]

IMO, purchasing one of these counterfeits is a morally questionable thing to do. Apparently, nobody has any qualms about putting American workers out of a job or unsuspecting second-hand buyers getting ripped off. Imagine a kid saving all his lawn mowing money for years to get the Gibson, Fender, PRS of his dreams and ends up with one of these fakes. He's out of his hard-earned money for a poor-quality guitar that he can't sell for anywhere near his purchase price and is nearly unplayable for him to learn on.

Or, how about the hard-working skilled craftsmen and women in Corona and Nashville doing their best to build a high-quality instruments that will provide a lifetime of enjoyment to an aspiring musician only to find themselves in the unemployment line because their company went under. You don't have to cut too far into a company's bottom line for it to fail.

Well, this could descend into politics quickly, but I guess I'd just say buyer beware. There's enough brand worshiping out there that if fakes make people question the actual quality, sound, and playability of a guitar instead of just staring at the headstock, that at least hints at a potential benefit.

It might be good to police the world, but it's not practical. At some point the accountability has to fall on the individual.

[NWBasser]

Well, this could descend into politics quickly, but I guess I'd just say buyer beware. There's enough brand worshiping out there that if fakes make people question the actual quality, sound, and playability of a guitar instead of just staring at the headstock, that at least hints at a potential benefit.

It might be good to police the world, but it's not practical. At some point the accountability has to fall on the individual.

Eric, I agree completely that it's a matter of individual accountability. I also think that it's a poor decision for the individual buyer to purchase one of these for reasons outlined earlier.

IMO, it's little different from knowingly buying a stolen guitar. In this case, it's the brand name that's stolen.

[Eric***]

Eric, I agree completely that it's a matter of individual accountability. I also think that it's a poor decision for the individual buyer to purchase one of these for reasons outlined earlier.

IMO, it's little different from knowingly buying a stolen guitar. In this case, it's the brand name that's stolen.

True, and I think I know what you're getting at and I do agree with it.

[bcdon***]

IMO, it's little different from knowingly buying a stolen guitar. In this case, it's the brand name that's stolen.

Just playing advocatus diaboli here, but what about people who buy fake Rolexs? Or knock off handbags? Hell, what about fake boobs?

[bcdon***]

And while you are mulling over the fake boobs, how about fake strings? WTF?



http://daddarioinc.blogspot.com/2010...unterfeit.html

[FrankenFretter***]

And while you are mulling over the fake boobs, how about fake strings? WTF?



http://daddarioinc.blogspot.com/2010...unterfeit.html

Wow, that seems like a retarded move. Seriously, do they really expect to make a bunch of money counterfeiting strings?

[NWBasser]

Just playing advocatus diaboli here, but what about people who buy fake Rolexs? Or knock off handbags? Hell, what about fake boobs?

No different for #1 and #2, the established brand-name is being stolen. It's simply theft.

As for #3, how do you know they're fake?

Also, for #3 the only ones out money are either the chick or her SO, and in both cases it could be argued that there's a good return on the "investment."

[Ch0jin]

Just playing advocatus diaboli here, but what about people who buy fake Rolexs? Or knock off handbags? Hell, what about fake boobs?

Apart from the breasts, which I assume was a joke it's the exact same thing imo. But as I've been reading, there are clearly a few different aspects being discussed here.

On the topic of the "poor customer" who unwittingly buys a fake with their hard earned cash, I honestly feel no empathy. Call me heartless, but there's a reason the phrase "Caveat Emptor" has stuck around longer than the very language it was written in.

It's the 21st century. The fact that China produces everything from fake guitars to fake medication and even fake food is widely known. The only thing more universally known is that the guy selling watches and handbags on the street in (insert pretty much any country you can think of) probably isn't an authorized reseller.

Commonplace English phrases like "buyer beware", "You get what you pay for" and "false economy" and the list goes on, are commonplace for a reason! I'm sure there are similar phrases in most languages too (I don't know for sure though) but these little cultural training tools keep hanging around in society because every new generation needs to be reminded that "if it looks to good to be true, it probably is"

If you ignore the anthropological teachings of your language, your upbringing and education, and the people you interact with, and then further ignore research, reviews and opinions expressed online and end up being surprised that the item you paid FAR below cost for is a crap fake, then well, as I said, I feel no empathy or pity.

As for the outsourcing/offshoring local jobs etc, well I avoid that subject like the plague.

[Perfect Stranger]

To be honest, I think it's much ado about nothing....

I'm just trying to survive this life, you do what you gotta do...and I'll do what I gotta do. Capeesh?

[DrumBob]

I wrote an article over a year ago for Premier Guitar magazine on this very subject. Trade Tang is, as mentioned, a clearing house for all kinds of products, some bootlegged, sort of China's answer to Craigslist. You order a guitar from someone on Trade Tang, and they go out and find it for you. You may or may not get exactly what you ask for, and the return policy is basically nil. Not many people will go through the expense and hassle of shipping something back to China.

If you go to www.samin.com, you'll find a direct source of counterfeit Chinese guitars. These people manufacture them, and there are others.

As far as the quality of these instruments, you get what you pay for in most cases. You could compare Chinese counterfeits to your average Epiphone in many ways. I have tried a few bootlegged "Gibsons" after they were gutted, with all the electronics and some of the hardware replaced, the frets dressed and leveled and other work done, and they played fine. You have to do a lot of work on them to get them that way. Why bother?

Gibson employs people to sit at computers tracking Chinese counterfeits eight hours a day, five days a week, and they try to do everything they can to shut the bootleggers down. Problem is, the Chinese government is very lax about stuff like this, so Gibson, Fender, PRS, etc, get a lot of lip service and not much else. The one guitar maker who seems to succeed best in preventing counterfeits is Rickenbacker. Where they fail is in the manufacture of bootlegged Rickenbacker accessories, like truss rod covers. I spoke to Rick's president, John Hall, about this extensively. One of the reasons he's successful in stopping them is because all Rick guitars are made in the USA, unlike Gibson, Fender and PRS, who farm out low end products to Asia.

And yes, the some of counterfeits are coming out of the same factories that make the guitars for those American companies. Amazing.

My advice is not to fall prey to counterfeit guitars. In doing research for the article, I actually came close to ordering a fake Les Paul Junior in order to go through the process and gauge the results. My accountant assured me I could write it off as the cost of doing business, but in the end, it became a moral issue and I couldn't do it.

Buy your guitars from authorized dealers. That way, you know you're getting the real thing.

[NWBasser]

Drumbob,

Thank you for your insightful and very informative post!

[Brian Krashpad]

I would think that the General Agreement of Trade and Tariffs (GATT) would have some provisions to protect intellectual property and trademarks. Maybe not a cease and desist, but a lawsuit for damages?

But a damages judgment against a foreign company is just a piece of paper. Where, as here, that company's home country doesn't doesn't give 2 shits about the legal issue involved, good luck ever seeing a dime. I'm guessing a judgment against one of the Chinese counterfeiters would be worthless. The only real remedy is shutting them down.

My bill is in the mail.

BK

Florida Bar # 096310.

[Katastrophe]

Brian, I think we have a couple of legal firsts here:

1. Your well reasoned legal opinion is awesome. You should become a judge.

2. That's the first time in the history of law that "2 shits" was ever documented as part of a legal opinion. That makes it even more awesome.

Please don't charge for the awesomeness. We couldn't afford it!

[Brian Krashpad]

Lord help us all if I ever became a judge. I lack "judicial temperment."

As well as many other laudable character traits.

Awesomeness is always free.

[Katastrophe]

I just got a mental picture, Brian:

You're on the bench, and you ask a young defendant if he has anything to say before sentencing. Defendant gives a story that's a big bag o' hooey, to which you respond, "Son, don't piss on me and tell me that it's raining!"

I have an active imagination...

Come on over to Texas. Here, "judicial temperament" means that the judge had the restraint to refrain from throwing the gavel at someone during trial (lol), although I'm sure it's happened a time or two, even though I don't have proof.


Back to the topic, Drumbob, great post. Thanks for having the moral fortitude to not purchase a counterfeit.