Replace PU instead of buying new guitar

[progrmr]

I find that the stock electonics in my Epi Joe Pass are passable ( no pun intended lol) but are really not doing it for me.

So as I've begun looking for a new sound via a new guitar, I figured that I could probably get the sound I'm looking for with some new pickups instead of a whole new guitar - I really dig the Epi.

This is my clean machine - so clean jazz and blues with a warm thick tone is what I'm after. I was looking at P90 guitars because I've watched several videos and I'm hearing some really nice jazz out of P90 guitars. The only issue is that the Epi has humbuckers so the P90's need to fit. The P90's seem to deliver the sound I'm looking for.

I'm not against going with new humbuckers either - 57 classics or something that will give me the same warm sound.

What would you all recommend? Humbucker sized P-90's or Humbuckers? Recommendation on specific brands/models based on experience?

[FrankenFretter***]

GFS Mean 90s. I hear nothing but good things about these, and Heywood has them in his Dot, and they sound great. They're a P90 in a full humbucker size package. You can't go wrong with these.

[otaypanky***]

You never know until you stick 'em in there. It's like looking for the 'right' speaker. But that's half the fun, isn't it, that search for tone ?
The worst thing that could happen is you pull them back out and find a new home for them
Give 'em a try.

[progrmr]

Yea, I could look forever thinking about it - I probably just need to give them a go. The GFS Mean 90's have a nice price and I found a few videos - they sound good. I'm gonna go for it - have them installed this weekend and spend next week playing them while I'm on vacation

thanks!

[progrmr]

And bought... Cheaper than a new guitar that's for sure!

[Jimi75]

Actually, you can never go wrong with a classic 57
If you want to go with a P90, I would recommend a Haeussel, which are currently the best P90 in hb format built.

http://www.haeussel.com/index.php?op...mid=27&lang=en

Another recommendation would be to go with a Benedetto pick up. Benedetto himself is a guitar building phenomenon and his pick ups are built to sound jazzy.

http://benedettopickups.com/products.htm

[wingsdad]

Why is replacing pickups so widely thought of as the immediate 'cure' to 'improve' tone when there are so many other variables in the equation?

[progrmr]

I think it's the easiest and fastest way to change tone - I've had new pickups added to guitars and basses, if the starting pickups are cheap the new ones are decent there is an immediate and significant improvement in tone.

My luthier tells me not to worry about the pots/caps in most of the instruments I take to them. If I don't find the sound I'm looking for the next step will be the amp.

What else would you recommend changing out?

[Heywood Jablomie]

Why is replacing pickups so widely thought of as the immediate 'cure' to 'improve' tone when there are so many other variables in the equation?

I often ask the same question. If changing, for example, from humbuckers to single coil (or vice versa), there's an obvious tonal difference. But the differences between different models of the same type of pickup are subtle, as shown by some interesting comparisons I've seen posted on these forums, where most listeners couldn't tell the difference.

To answer the "why" question: guitar forums and such publications as Premier Guitar convince people to buy (figuratively and literally) into the whole mojo/voodoo/BS thing.

Although I have no doubt that the "believers" are convinced that bulltique replacement parts are HUGE improvements, I also know that there are millions of people who believe that Extenze works.

[Eric***]

Why is replacing pickups so widely thought of as the immediate 'cure' to 'improve' tone when there are so many other variables in the equation?

Hmm. Probably because people don't know any better. Take me, for instance: I've only replaced pickups once (same pickup type), but the main reason was because I didn't know of any other variables to look at. What sort of things are there that you'd recommend for improving tone?

I'm not a big upgrade person in general -- I just like things to work, and I'll move on if I don't like something. Still, it's good to know these things.

[Ch0jin]

Hmm. Probably because people don't know any better. Take me, for instance: I've only replaced pickups once (same pickup type), but the main reason was because I didn't know of any other variables to look at. What sort of things are there that you'd recommend for improving tone?

I'm not a big upgrade person in general -- I just like things to work, and I'll move on if I don't like something. Still, it's good to know these things.

Off the top of my head I'd think 'before' the transfer of energy from mechanical to electrical, that is, before the pickups, It's all mechanical changes. From the very core aspects like wood type, to setup options like pickup height and bridge setup. Anything that affects the overall resonance of the instrument and thus contributes to the strings vibrating should in theory alter the magnetic flux field the pickup has to work with.

To enable the pickup to do its job of transferring the energy, it forms part of a simple 'LCR' circuit where the 'L' is the pickup, the "R" is your volume pot and the "C" is your "tone cap". Without getting right into it, this is a tuned circuit, therefore altering any of these parts will alter the "sound" it produces. Thats why people often hear a difference when they change pot values or cap values. You are altering the resonant frequency of a tuned circuit. Also, your guitar cable has capacitance, and that also alters the tuning of the LCR circuit too. Thats why a "bad" cable, meaning one with a high pF/ft rating will "muffle" your sound.

So yeah does that sound about right?

Anyway I only have limited experience modifying just two guitars, but I'd guess that the three big tone effectors are PU's, pots and tone caps..... Is that a fair call?

[deeaa*]

Ahh a thread to my liking...many of you have stated things I firmly believe in about pickups.

If you really study it, even small changes can make differences in pickup's sound. There's a lot of pickups out there with bad magnets and such, that sound curiously dark or bright for what you'd expect.

BUT in the end, there's no magic to how a pickup sounds, IMO. It's a pretty simple equation of magnet type, coil type and output strength. There's very very little difference if any between a lot of pickups with exactly the same type of magnet and comparable coil numbers etc. I really don't think you'll really detect any difference between, say a Seymour Duncan JB and a 57 and a similarly output-rated DiMarzio or whatever. It's mostly so tiny a difference I'd say it's in the listeners heads more than anything else.

In these cases, it's often more about the caps and the pots used - hell I bet even the wire used has some impact.

But, in reality, all these differences are very very small and in reality a slight change in pickup height, polepiece position and amp settings has way more impact.

If you want to change a dark-sounding no-name pickup to something else, you'll probably easily get a big change going to a known brand pickup.

If you want to change the pickup type or output level, you'll also notice big changes easily.

But, seriously...even with actives it seems to me if I for instance drop my volume a tad, I get pretty much exactly the same sound as any other humbucker ever did.

So to sum it up - is it in my opinion worth it to upgrade pups? YES if you're really changing the a.) type b.) output level c.) from a no-name unknown, strange-magnet one to a quality pup

BUT IMO it makes no sense whatsoever to take a perfectly good Gibson or a Seymour-equipped axe and just install whatever good pickup on it in the similar output range or style, I really don't see it is in any way a feasible answer to getting a change in sound.

I'm NOT saying there is no difference. Of course there is a difference, even between like active EMG 85's and 81's. Only that when you really think of it much, the differences in most cases are so slight it indeed makes more sense to change the tone caps than the actual pickup, or just adjust the amp.

Sometimes it has to be changed. On my guitars, I have changed an 81 to 85 simply because the guitar was a bit light in construction and lacked beef, and an 85 gave it much more balls and warmth. Conversely my Flying-V is pretty big and heavy and sturdy, and an 81 is quite ok on it.

AND to finish the ramble off, I haven't that much experience on single-coil mics, and it seems to me, on those the differences are a bit more pronounced than on humbuckers.

[deeaa*]

Anything that affects the overall resonance of the instrument and thus contributes to the strings vibrating should in theory alter the magnetic flux field the pickup has to work with.

Indeed, and I have found the biggest things are - NOT whether it's bolt-on or glued or neck-thru OR even the woods used - it's the angles the strings have over their pivot ends on the guitar, and the materials and methods used on those spots where the string actually meets the guitar body. AND in some cases, the mixture of materials and/or said angles.

I know for a fact that simply changing body wood on, say, a strat, does very little to the sound, even if you change it to metal, stone, plastics, you name it, but there's no escaping that you just can't make a tiltneck gibson sound like a strat even with strat pups and all. It's the string angles for a large part, and in a very few situations, like the Les Paul maple cap thing, the woods have a somewhat magic-seeming affect on the sound.That maple cap upon I guess most anything seems to affect the tone quite a lot.

I don't claim to know anything about what sounds good and what not, but I'll say that any mention of 'tone woods' kinda makes me chuckle in disbelief, but still, if I see a guitar with a tiltneck and a maple cap over it's body, I can pretty much trust my expectations on what it might sound like.

[Ch0jin]

Here is some tasty techo info on pickups. No Mojo, just physics. The part about how the guitar cable and input impedance of the amp play a part in the overall "guitar" circuit is an excellent point.

Here's a quote "The integral "heliocentric" view on pickups: Pickup, pots in the guitar, cable capacitance, and amp input impedance are an interactive system that must not be split up into its parts. If you analyze the properties of the parts separately you will never understand how the system works as a whole. The sound material a pickup receives from the strings is not flavoured by the pickup alone but by the complete system. This includes the guitar cable."

Check it out, it's worth reading. He makes a great point about pickup resistance Vs Inductance too.

HERE

[Heywood Jablomie]

Indeed, and I have found the biggest things are - NOT whether it's bolt-on or glued or neck-thru OR even the woods used - it's the angles the strings have over their pivot ends on the guitar, and the materials and methods used on those spots where the string actually meets the guitar body. AND in some cases, the mixture of materials and/or said angles.

I know for a fact that simply changing body wood on, say, a strat, does very little to the sound, even if you change it to metal, stone, plastics, you name it, but there's no escaping that you just can't make a tiltneck gibson sound like a strat even with strat pups and all. It's the string angles for a large part, and in a very few situations, like the Les Paul maple cap thing, the woods have a somewhat magic-seeming affect on the sound.That maple cap upon I guess most anything seems to affect the tone quite a lot.

I don't claim to know anything about what sounds good and what not, but I'll say that any mention of 'tone woods' kinda makes me chuckle in disbelief, but still, if I see a guitar with a tiltneck and a maple cap over it's body, I can pretty much trust my expectations on what it might sound like.

LOL. To me, that post is rather contradictory.

[Ch0jin]

Indeed, and I have found the biggest things are - NOT whether it's bolt-on or glued or neck-thru OR even the woods used - it's the angles the strings have over their pivot ends on the guitar, and the materials and methods used on those spots where the string actually meets the guitar body. AND in some cases, the mixture of materials and/or said angles.

I know for a fact that simply changing body wood on, say, a strat, does very little to the sound, even if you change it to metal, stone, plastics, you name it, but there's no escaping that you just can't make a tiltneck gibson sound like a strat even with strat pups and all. It's the string angles for a large part, and in a very few situations, like the Les Paul maple cap thing, the woods have a somewhat magic-seeming affect on the sound.That maple cap upon I guess most anything seems to affect the tone quite a lot.

I don't claim to know anything about what sounds good and what not, but I'll say that any mention of 'tone woods' kinda makes me chuckle in disbelief, but still, if I see a guitar with a tiltneck and a maple cap over it's body, I can pretty much trust my expectations on what it might sound like.

As far as tone wood goes I'm not as skeptical as you

I think it probably comes down to how much difference there actually is in the resonant characteristics of different wood types. I don't know how to do the math, or if it's even really possible with an organic substance like wood, but my thinking goes like this.

Lets say a standard Strat body made of swamp ash has a primary resonant frequency of 440Hz for the sake of discussion. (it wont have, but hang in there)

The definition of acoustic resonance is "The tendency of an acoustic system to absorb more energy when it is forced or driven at a frequency that matches one of its own natural frequencies of vibration (its resonance frequency) than it does at other frequencies"

So basically at 440Hz, you'd expect a boost in output. Playing an A note on the 5th fret of the E string (which is 440Hz ) would probably sound louder than any other notes.

If we take exact same guitar and change only the wood type to mahogany which in my imaginary world has a resonant frequency of 82.4Hz (open E), then your open E sound should be more pronounced.

At this stage I'm hoping you get what I mean.

Basically I'm saying I think the wood type and shape form part of a mechanically resonant device that includes the hardware (bridge/saddles/nut etc) and the layout of hardware (string break angle, scale, string height etc).

Altering parts of that resonant device should alter it's resonant frequency and therefore alter the eventual "tone" of the instrument. This is certainly the case for an acoustic guitar in any case.

Now to return to my initial comment, if the delta between the resonant frequency of (for example) an Ash body and an Alder body is not great enough to effect the overall resonant frequency of the instrument, electronics aside, then I would agree there would be no audible difference in "tone".

There is FAR more to mechanical resonance in a guitar than I have described of course. You don't just have a resonant frequency, there are harmonics and so on to consider, and then there's the combination of woods used, I'm sure ebony and maple bonded together has a natural resonance different to maple on maple for example.

Anyway, thats just all theoretical stuff to illustrate my twisted thinking.

[rick04901]

Hi, Prgmr:

I recently changed out the humbuckers in my Epi Sheraton II With Seymour Duncan P90 Phat Cats. I'm very pleased with them. They're made to replace full size humbuckers, so there'll be no problem with fit. I think you'll be well satisfied.

[progrmr]

I'm pumped - they've shipped with 2 day shipping so here by Thursday. I just hope they sound like I'm thinking they will.

[wingsdad]

Since my questioning the validity of a chicken-crossing-the road (i.e., because they're there) impulse to change pickups without considering first the interrelationship of a host of intrinsic variables (I think Ch0jin's 2 posts addressing the physics and pointing to how components of the "overall 'guitar' circuit all play together symbiotically backs my point, in detail) draws these requests:

... What else would you recommend changing out?

Changing out? Nothing. Changing? (a) Maybe the vol & tone pot(s) settings on your guitar, to regulate the signal from the pickup(s) before they hit (b) Maybe your cable connecting to your amp and then (c) maybe your amp's input pre-gain(s), eg/tone controls and output volume (post-gain) setting(s)

...What sort of things are there that you'd recommend for improving tone?

If diddling and futzing with all of the above doesn't yield tonal nirvana, then rather than doink with upgrading the axe or changing the amp, first I'd turn to acquiring a device like this:
MXR 10-Band EQ Pedal
I've had one in its ancestral form (late 70's) - 10-band but without a stomp switch or pre and post gains - and it's always been my MVP...Most Valuable Pedal. Any guitar with any pickup into any amp or mixer with any speaker system in any room. I guess that's why they call it an 'Equalizer'?

Or, as I picked one of these up primarily for A/E guitars, I found that you shouldn't let the word 'Acoustic' in the name fool you on trying this (and apparently, so did Baggs, because they dropped it from the name)...this DOES have pre/post gain control, and can be operated to route the mono input signal out in stereo:
L.R. Baggs Para DI

Either of the above can be had for about the same cost as a set of top-notch Duncans or DiMarzios, or about 3-4 sets of GFS and will be way more versatile since it will hook up with any or all of the guitar(s) you own and plug in, and you won't burn your fingers hooking it up.