How good is Bruce Lee?

[tunghaichuan***]

Nah, it wasn't him teaching non-Asians.....sheesh, plenty of American servicemen have learned the Oriental fighting arts since at least the 1940s. Robert W. Smith learned from a whole host of Asian teachers on Taiwan in the 1960s.

What got Lee into "trouble", was saying that just teaching "forms" was not really beneficial for a student. The "form" in and of itself was just a dance and didn't necessarily impart fighting techniques. Glorified and gussied up phys ed that served as a money making machine. "Forms" can be a good thing in the hands of a dedicated teacher. The Form teaches certain physical characteristics not noted in prior or related forms. There is fighting application, but if a teacher doesn't reveal it, then the student is just doing a dance.

Lee didn't teach "forms"......he taught techniques and concepts and so his students were motivated to learn more, to search, to relate everything to fighting.

Of course, you're right. The whole "classical mess" that Lee railed against.

But I still think there was some prejudice against Lee teaching Chinese arts to non-Chinese. The Chinese were notoriously guarded about teaching their martial arts even to their own. Many times a prospective (Chinese!) student had to work very hard to be accepted by a teacher. I think that Lee freely teaching Chinese martial arts to non-Chinese probably ruffled a lot of feathers in the Chinese martial arts community.

Smith was kind of an anomaly. He was very good about getting Chinese martial arts experts to open up and reveal at least a little about their arts. It seems to me that most of the servicemen learning martial arts in Asia were learning mostly judo/karate/tae kwon do and not the more esoteric Chinese arts. Although there is some speculation that back in the 1930s, Fairbairn learned some Chinese arts which became the basis of his WWII hand-to-hand combat system while working as a policeman in Shanghai.

I owe a big debt to Smith, it was his book Pa-Kua: Chinese Boxing for Fitness & Self-Defense that got me interested in baguazhang.

[deeaa*]

To paraphrase Robert W. Smith: you can be sure that a 6' 5" 250 lb. stevedore will beat the crap out of a 5' 7", 130 lb., 5th Dan karateka. Size is a huge deciding factor, which is why there are weight classes in contact/combat sports.

I don't know jack about contact sports, but this I do not believe to be necessarily true. I have a true story.

I'm in a bar in the '90's, long hair and thin guy, with a guy I knew so and so, really thin, puny guy like 5'5" or whatever - I mean, I was skinny at 65kg and 177cm and he's like almost a head shorter and 20 pounds lighter. Hell smaller than most normal schoolgirls are, really.

Anyways, so we're having a beer and this HUGE guy comes to sit by us, he's built like an ox, easily over six feet and looks like a viking or something. Scary just because he was such a hulk of a guy. And he starts talking with us, he's somewhat drunk and so on, but pretty soon he starts eyeing who's he talking with and obviously dislikes us 'hippies' so all of a sudden he starts kinda talking all weird about things and how his kinda guys put all kinds of f**ng hippies underground and how he knows some russian mafia and whatnot, and we're like eyeing for exit. You know the drill.

Well my puny buddy is sitting right next to me, and (I later understood) what happened is this fella big was about to put his hands around his neck, semi-joking or I dunno, but anyways there's just this quick WOOHS and the giant just sort of staggers upwards and continues right down on his back eyes rolling and falls on the floor. I don't even see or realize what the hell happened.

We just sit there and my heart's missed a few beats and then the barkey comes to us and asks what the hell happened, did he fall, and my buddy just says that 'nope he was gonna strangle me or something and I just knocked him out'. The barkey just stares for a while in disbelief and shrugs and goes away saying 'you better get him up, then' as he goes.

My buddy is looking kinda worried and after a while he asks if the guy is still unconscious, and then he sighs and goes and wakes him up with a few slaps and just gently tells him to go home, OK, and the guy ups and goes, clearly still quite woozy.

Then my buddy comes back and he's all trembly and explains that he's never hit anyone outside a ring and he'd lose his licence and whatnot if he got busted for a bar fight...

And that's when I learn he was a Finnish featherweight Karate champion of some class the year before. So, yeah, I do know for a fact even a flyweight guy _can_ hit so hard and accurately that even a real big fella comes down like a tree.

But, if it were a fight in a ring and even the big guy has some fighting experience, sure I'd bet for him.

[piebaldpython***]

Well my puny buddy is sitting right next to me, and (I later understood) what happened is this fella big was about to put his hands around his neck, semi-joking or I dunno, but anyways there's just this quick WOOHS and the giant just sort of staggers upwards and continues right down on his back eyes rolling and falls on the floor. I don't even see or realize what the hell happened.

The big guy was maybe clowning around, half-serious and your friend caught him totally unawares. Yeah, that most certainly can happen.

The Robert Smith quote was more in reference to if a "man of size/power" was HELL-BENT on ripping your head off. Take any wrestler/football player, say 200 + lbs, tick him off, have him come after you, KNOWING that puny you is a "trained" striking arts fighter, and you are dead-meat. Once the big-guy attacks, you have to stop him within 2 strikes (one from each hand). If you can't stop him, he will tie you up (think a boxer's clinch) and you are in trouble.

Smith wrote a fascinating book about his time in Taiwan, training in a broad cross-section of Chinese styles. He and some others (Sifu John Allen and Master Gene Chicoine, both from the Akron Ohio area) will eagerly tell you the problem that 99% of practitioners of the striking arts (as opposed to grappling) have is that they lack the requisite POWER/STRENGTH to make their techniques works in the real world. In other words, they lack STOPPING POWER.

[Ch0jin]

........ the problem that 99% of practitioners of the striking arts (as opposed to grappling) have is that they lack the requisite POWER/STRENGTH to make their techniques works in the real world. In other words, they lack STOPPING POWER.

I'm obviously out of my depth with guys here who really know this stuff, but that comment makes plenty of sense to me, I mean just watch UFC. Unless you can throw knockout punches or kicks right away, you need plenty of strength and stamina for all that grapple work.

[Iago]

Ahm.. No one here actually believes the video, right?

Very well made and entertaining, anyway.

[mrmudcat]

Kite that was awesome......not sure if it is real.............watched enter the dragon just the other night ........late night/early morning as always !!!!!

[mrmudcat]

The Robert Smith quote was more in reference to if a "man of size/power" was HELL-BENT on ripping your head off. Take any wrestler/football player, say 200 + lbs, tick him off, have him come after you, KNOWING that puny you is a "trained" striking arts fighter, and you are dead-meat. Once the big-guy attacks, you have to stop him within 2 strikes (one from each hand). If you can't stop him, he will tie you up (think a boxer's clinch) and you are in trouble.

Or one kick in the ballz then like hell!!!!!

[Iago]

To paraphrase Robert W. Smith: you can be sure that a 6' 5" 250 lb. stevedore will beat the crap out of a 5' 7", 130 lb., 5th Dan karateka. Size is a huge deciding factor, which is why there are weight classes in contact/combat sports.

I've seen average sized guys beating heavier, over 6' fighters, and I'm not only talking about early UFC (pre-weight class days) but in recent no holds barred ("vale-tudo") championships in Brazil, where both fighters are prepared for it. Not saying the fights are the most technically developed thing in the world though .

Maybe the problem is this 5th dan karateka. I've practiced it in the past and I always feel that karate classes don't prepare you for real, agressive combat or a ring (of course, there are always exceptions), unlike muay thai, boxing and jiu-jitsu. What if the big bulky guy takes you down, what are you going to do? Punch him? Of course not. A decent, well prepared jiu-jitsu practicioner, even in weight disadvantage, would have a hell of a good chance to submit the unskilled brawler here, as it was proved many times before.

In a stand-up fight, the smaller guy wouldn't be standing still waiting to be punched (if he's prepared). He's going to move around all time, hit and escape to wear the bigger, usually slower guy out and look for the best opportunity for a precise strike.

Now, if both are equally well trained and one of them is a much bigger guy, he will definitely have a huge advantage.

[kiteman]

Now Bruce Lee's lighting matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j78HYNW_Qa0

[tunghaichuan***]

The big guy was maybe clowning around, half-serious and your friend caught him totally unawares. Yeah, that most certainly can happen.

What many non-martial artists don't realize is the martial arts don't make anyone invincible. At best they can give you an edge. My personal philosophy is to avoid physical confrontation at all costs. In fact, if I ever have to use physical violence to protect myself, I've failed. A lot of self-defense should involve situational awareness and deescalation. The physical techniques are only for a last ditch effort if I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, or if I wasn't paying attention to my surroundings.

This point was really hammered home when I was in high school. One of my wrestling team mates, who was a pretty tough guy, went to a party and got drunk. He got into an altercation with another student who smacked my friend in the jaw with a baseball bat. It was probably a good thing the he was drunk, otherwise the blow might have broken his neck. Also it probably didn't hurt that being a wrestler, he had a very strong neck. Still, he came to school the next day with knot on the side of his jaw the size of a baseball. He got very lucky. At that point I made a decision that I would never place myself in a situation where I didn't have all my faculties.

While I love martial arts movies, they are pure fantasy. In fact, most of them glorify violence without showing the consequences. In contrast, real world violence is nasty, brutal and to be avoided at all costs. You don't "win" when engaging in violence, you "survive." And often there are consequences, legal and otherwise.

The Robert Smith quote was more in reference to if a "man of size/power" was HELL-BENT on ripping your head off. Take any wrestler/football player, say 200 + lbs, tick him off, have him come after you, KNOWING that puny you is a "trained" striking arts fighter, and you are dead-meat. Once the big-guy attacks, you have to stop him within 2 strikes (one from each hand). If you can't stop him, he will tie you up (think a boxer's clinch) and you are in trouble.

The Gracies developed their jiu-jitsu based on this principle: a small man can beat a large man if the large man is taken to the ground. While there are lots of grappling arts, most of them do not emphasize ground work. Even judo, which has ground work techniques tends to emphasize throwing. Most wrestling styles emphasize takedowns and limited ground work. Most sport wrestling styles have had all the dangerous techniques removed, to make them safe to practice. But Brazilian jiu-jitsu specializes in takedowns, ground fighting, and submission holds which made it very affective against most traditional martial arts.

Added to that, most non-grapplers are clueless as to how to deal with getting taken down. Most striking arts work great if the opponent stays in the striking/kicking range. But once a grappler has a hold of a striker, it becomes very difficult for a striker to stay on his/her feet.

Having said that, while I admire the Gracies and their art, it isn't a magic bullet for all situations. When weapons or multiple opponents get added into the mix, all bets are off. In these types of situations, no matter what style/art/training, the odds of escaping un-injured decrease dramatically.

Smith wrote a fascinating book about his time in Taiwan, training in a broad cross-section of Chinese styles. He and some others (Sifu John Allen and Master Gene Chicoine, both from the Akron Ohio area) will eagerly tell you the problem that 99% of practitioners of the striking arts (as opposed to grappling) have is that they lack the requisite POWER/STRENGTH to make their techniques works in the real world. In other words, they lack STOPPING POWER.

Arts like boxing and Muay Thai work well because they practice full force against resisting opponents. Lee was one of the first kung-fu guys to say that this is the best way to train. And that kata were worthless for real fighting as Piebald Python pointed out.

Bruce Lee was definitely a pioneer in the martial arts, it's too bad he died so young. It would have been interesting to see how is art developed as he matured and integrated other concepts into it.