What's the point of 100 watt amps?

[Katastrophe]

Further examples would include jumbo acoustic guitars and of course the double bass!

One aspect that hasn't really been addressed though is how a thumpy and bassy guitar sound affects the whole band mix. In my experience, some awesome tones that sound great on their own can be disastrous in a band setting with other instruments. For example, a mid-scooped bass tone sounds sweet on its own but is a cloak of sonic invisibilty when put into a band context.

Man, lot of good info in this thread! IMO, it's mids that provide the punch to cut through for bass or guitar. Lose mid frequencies on both (like a lot of metal bands do), and it can become a woofy, mushy mess. Then, a band will compensate by turning up the volume on the 100 watt (or more for the bass) stack, creating a loud, woofy, mushy mess that becomes a roar of nothing but noise.

[Eric***]

Man, lot of good info in this thread! IMO, it's mids that provide the punch to cut through for bass or guitar. Lose mid frequencies on both (like a lot of metal bands do), and it can become a woofy, mushy mess. Then, a band will compensate by turning up the volume on the 100 watt (or more for the bass) stack, creating a loud, woofy, mushy mess that becomes a roar of nothing but noise.

It's funny, 'cause at times I like big giant messes of sound, like in some...well, I'm not sure what they're considered (Black Angels, Darker My Love)...bands. I love the sound of the Big Muff on Siamese Dream by Smashing Pumpkins, but that's the whole point of that pedal.

Anyway, I don't know if I have a point. I guess it's just that if you're actually going for a big fizzy mess a la fuzz tones, I think it can be pretty sweet if done right. But I know that wasn't really your point.

[Ch0jin]

...... I had no idea that the response of the ear to the frequencies of sound, and the SPL too I suppose, has such an affect on the sound we perceive; as opposed, I guess to the actual sound wave pattern generated by the amp and speaker and pushed thru the air. It sounds like what we hear is regulated by our human condition;

If you enjoy mulling that concept over in your mind, consider that the exact same situation occurs with what we see. I'll be brief cause it's wildly OT, but light is also a wave (yes I know it can also be a particle, but leave that out for now). When we look at a something, the colours we "see" are in reality just our brain interpreting the eye's response to different frequencies. Blue is not "Blue". Blue is what our brain comes up with when our eyes are hit with a frequency of around 650THz.

Think about that for a while.

I have some info around the rest of your post too, but work beckons. I'll get back to the physics lesson later

[Duffy]

It can be very useful to have a big tube amp when you are playing outside and the sound man working the PA doesn't give a shi# about your sound and he keeps turning you down. You can turn up your amp and get to where you want to be.

Also, you may "need" a big amp to drownd out a belligerent loud drummer. You also might be in a super loud band - the house is not going to let you blow up their expensive PA, as has happened many a time.

A big amp isn't for everything, absolutely, but it is sure fun to crank one up once in a while and really roar, if only for your own pleasure.

And believe it that Bonamassa has his reasons for needing big amps; like Deeaa was saying, and so on.

[NWBasser]

Also, you may "need" a big amp to drownd out a belligerent loud drummer.

.

I would take exception to this. If you feel the need to drown out another musician, then you are in an adversarial band situation where nobody is going to be happy and you won't be making good music.

If you want to be a super-loud superstar, then forget about being in a band.

When a guitar player drowns out my bass, then I figure my contribution is not needed and I pack up and walk. The only way I'd put up with that is for loads of $$$. Pay me enough and I'll smile and plunk root notes all day while you wank away at top volume.

[Ch0jin]

Pay me enough and I'll smile and plunk root notes all day while you wank away at top volume.

Hey that sounds like heaps of fun! How much do I have to pay exactly? I hate it when bass players step all over my non-stop solo's with their fancy scales and such.

(joking)

[deeaa*]

I would take exception to this. If you feel the need to drown out another musician, then you are in an adversarial band situation where nobody is going to be happy and you won't be making good music.

If you want to be a super-loud superstar, then forget about being in a band.

When a guitar player drowns out my bass, then I figure my contribution is not needed and I pack up and walk. The only way I'd put up with that is for loads of $$$. Pay me enough and I'll smile and plunk root notes all day while you wank away at top volume.

I don't want to sound like an *** or aggravate or anything, but seriously, I don't get your approach.

Would you not play with, say Jimi Hendrix or Joe Bonamassa if they insisted on playing louder than hell? Does everybody in a band have to be equal, would it not be good to have a superstar in the band whom others accompany, more or less?

I don't think it basically matters usually - if someone is a louder player, you arrange monitoring so that you hear yourself. You talk with the others, and make a joint decision, you have a band meeting, you make the best of it. But I don't believe it's good to force everybody into some mold just for some minor detail like that, or leave because of it. I'd be concerned of ever getting to be in a good band if I was so eager to jump out at such a small trouble detail.

I've been in dozens of bands, and the best ones always were the ones that didn't have the best players or best volume appreciations of others etc. but great unity and feel and whatnot.
And despite it pains me to say this because I really don't wish to say anything annoying or insulting - but the truth is that if there's anyone in the band who's expandable, it's the bassist. Pretty much any band I've ever been in, it's been more of a case of just making sure the bass doesn't rumble too much and is about on time, that's all that is needed and cared for. Many a band of mine has swapped bassists for whatever reason, and it hardly has mattered usually overall, but you can't change any other member like a guitarist or singer or drummer without changing the band sound and feel drastically. Bass is a support instrument, and 90% of time it should only be noticed if it's missing, not as a separate instrument all the time.

Not that I don't appreciate a great bassist, but to be honest in a band meeting situation if a bass player complains about too loud a guitarist, well, he's not going to get much support from the rest of the band I fear, unless it's really really loud a guitarist. I know because I've been a bassist in a touring band. Many a time I didn't hear myself at all either, but it was rock music so the guitar is the king. I've had a superb, totally professional bassist who made his living on playing bass entirely in my band, and he was excellent, but when he had to quit we took a guitar player to spank the bass instead thru an old guitar amp, and it was just as good from band perspective and we made some of our best stuff after that.

Many times people - especially good/exceptional players - can be too loud or have some other issues. But I don't think that makes for bad music, quite the contrary. If everybody needs to be constantly happy about their sounds and volumes and overall just too much worry about such things, or change band members based on any similar issue etc, well, I don't think _that_ makes for making good music either.

Of course, it could be the bassist who's the superstar too! The friend pro who played in my band a few years has his own jazz bands, in which he's basically playing leads on bass as well and in that, HE's the star and the guitarist just supports him.

Our other guitarist drowns me quite completely at times, many a times, but I don't mind, as long as he's keeping it down at least in some spots that matter. Same with vocals, I have practically never been in a band where I could hear the vocals well in rehearsals, because the PA stuff is expensive and had to get loud in a small room without feedback.

So to sum it up...yeah it sucks if some person/persons are drowning the others with volume, but I don't see it as black and white - sometimes it's good for the band, sometimes someone needs to be loud, and in any case it's just a matter of arranging monitoring and / or talking about how to correct the problem. Maybe the guitar amp can be turned to other direction and he can play in front of it a little farther off or something, or maybe the band can get an ear monitor for the bassist...it's just technical and not a good reason to just leave a band, IMO.

[NWBasser]

I don't want to sound like an *** or aggravate or anything, but seriously, I don't get your approach.

Would you not play with, say Jimi Hendrix or Joe Bonamassa if they insisted on playing louder than hell? Does everybody in a band have to be equal, would it not be good to have a superstar in the band whom others accompany, more or less?

I just re-read this and thought it would be worthwhile to offer some clarification on the matter. What I was referring to earlier is getting completely drowned out to the point that the bass isn't even heard. Why bother even playing if that's that case? May as well sit around and drink beer.

I didn't mean that everyone had to be at parity volume although that's my general preference. I could handle playing with a much louder guitar as long as I could hear myself too.

Listening to Hendrix or Joe B, and you can hear some bass.

[deeaa*]

Yep Eric I think that sums it up pretty well indeed.

Although the 'red knob' twin never was a greatly appreciated or lusted after an amp, it was by far the best Fender I ever played...it had the switches to turn it into a 100W, 50W or 25W amp.
It had killer cleans, like any regular Twin, when on 100W, but when you dropped it to 25W you could get quite un-fendery, singing drive sounds from the thing.

I would LOVE to have an amp that could do that with a footswitch...instead of just adding another more driven channel it would actually really double the wattage...that would be perfect.

Because, despite how good master volume can be, the really really best guitar sounds for me will always come near the max volume of the amp, when the power tubes are already working hard hard hard. So if you always want to be in that zone, there is no way to effectively go any louder or quieter without destroying the sound...the wattage halving on the fly would solve that problem.

Hm. Actually a switch to kick in an attenuator would do just about the same. Hm. I wonder how hard it would be to build one working on a relay.

[Eric***]

Hm. Actually a switch to kick in an attenuator would do just about the same. Hm. I wonder how hard it would be to build one working on a relay.

I was thinking that two amps and an A/B box would probably be the easiest route for that. Would doing that with an attenuator adversely affect an amp in any way?

[deeaa*]

Yep, A/B would be best...but of course somehow incorporating everything into one chassis would be simple.

But, it's true...attenuators & big tube amps aren't a very good combination at least in long run. Perhaps just a little attenuation would work, though...just a few dB would do I think.

[Duffy]

The point here being, NW, is that there "are" belligerent super loud drummers that actually are adversarial and it's nice to have that reserve power to bring to bear if needed, before you walk. It was kind of a joke actually, but in reality these guys are out there and I'm sure you have met a few and steer clear. Same thing with other superstar guitar players, and it turns into the battle of the loudest.

100 watts isn't a bad thing, even 30 watt players can be obnoxiously loud and no fun to play with.

I agree, no one likes to be drownded out and it's not fun.

[Algonquin]

A knowledable Gent I once worked for explained wattage and db levels to me like this... 'It takes 10 x's the wattage to double the decible level' From this it reasons a 100 watt amp will only be twice as loud as a 10 watt amp, but the clean headroom it gives you is incredible!

There are many amps out there that operate at half wattage like the Marshall Jubilee 2550, or the Traynor YCS50 which can run in a 15 watt mode.

I don't think either of these amps run at the lower wattage really reduce the overall volume much, but it does give them a different feel.

[NWBasser]

The point here being, NW, is that there "are" belligerent super loud drummers that actually are adversarial and it's nice to have that reserve power to bring to bear if needed, before you walk. It was kind of a joke actually, but in reality these guys are out there and I'm sure you have met a few and steer clear. I agree, no one likes to be drownded out and it's not fun.

LOL!

Yeah Duffy, I have run across those sort of drummers!

Unfortunately, I can't afford the two-kilowatt bass rig necessary to subdue that type. I just have to wave the white surrender flag.

Yes, it would be rather fun to lay them out with a 100-watt full-stack guitar rig!

[Ch0jin]

Thanks Algonquin, I was hoping that would come up. Yes, it's true, a 100W amp is actually only 23% louder than a 50W amp. Here's the formula, go nuts!

2^log10(100W/50W) = 2^log10(2) = 2^.30102999…. = 1.23. (Just 23%!)

It's fundamentally flawed to apply linear math to guitar amps when you're thinking about power ratings. As the guys here who have used 100W amps have said, it's not necessarily about being a lot louder. Frequently it's about clean headroom (sorry, I don't have a formula for that, but more power amp reserve typically equals more clean headroom, important for all those Jazz gig's we play at metal volume) and/or more low frequency grunt.

It's also been mentioned that bass guitar amps typically run massively higher wattage than comparable guitar rigs, whilst completely true, I'd like to make it clear the same theory applies to Guitar amps.

If you want more perceived volume from the lower frequencies (any 7 string players want to comment?) you'll need more power.

So yeah, if you want stomach churning, pants flapping, brass vibrating, snare rattling, ear rupturing, foundation crumbling bass response in your guitar tone. Keep shopping the 100 Watt amps.

As a personal anecdote though, I jam with another guitarist/bass player and a loud rock drummer and I usually have a 60W all tube Peavey run with the MV wide open and the clean and crunch channel volumes pretty much maxed too. All through a very old (so i'm thinking, inefficient) 4x12 and I usually leave those jams thinking of buying a 100W head. Then I get home and think "H'mm a 5 watt combo would be sweet"

There is a place for both

[Duffy]

My thinking is that low frequency bass wavelengths such as those produced by guitar and bass amps are many feet long for one full wave. How this corresponds to how we perceive the bass sound in a small room or from headphones, I'm not sure. Of course, not being unidirectional, a lot of the waves are not going to have the space to fully form their waves before being reflected and atenuated. They are bouncing all around at high amplitudes reinforcing each other and cancelling each other out.

Here are the frequencies and wavelengths for the strings on a 4 string bass +/-:

String – Frequency - Wavelength
G - 97.9989 Hz - 11.531 ft.
D - 73.4162 Hz - 15.392 ft.
A - 55.000 Hz - 20.545 ft.
E - 41.2035 Hz - 27.425 ft. (329.098 in.)

The above wavelengths will occur in a free space, a space free of obstructions, walls, ceilings, people, etc.

Since our amps are located near walls, have open backs, are in enclosed rooms, etc., there are going to be a lot of powerful high amplitude sound waves bouncing around reinforcing each other and cancelling each other out, as the case may be in any given space. This is what I think Dee is talking about - the situation where you have sound waves bouncing all around and affecting what our ears perceive. Therefore, experimenting with the placement of the amps and speakers, aiming, etc., can have a big effect on how we hear our music. Because of this recording engineers go to great length to try to deal with this problem and the bass frequencies are particularly problematic for them and they go to great length, in some cases, to try to get it right or at least "better" sounding.

Also, it is seemingly confusing why we can hear a 40HZ bass note correctly thru a set of earphones. The amplitude of the sound wave at 40HZ coming to our ear from the headphones is much lower than the amplitude coming out of a bass amp. But the wavelength is still about 27 feet long, so our ears and brains must be processing that E note somehow so that it sounds right, even if the note is very short in duration such as one tenth of a second - it still sounds right.

[NWBasser]

...a lot of the waves are not going to have the space to fully form their waves before being reflected and atenuated.

Actually, the waves are fully formed right at the speaker (electro-mechanical to acoustic energy transfer). For a sound wave to gain amplitude (i.e., fully form) in free space, it would need some sort of energy input.
Sort of like when a bullet exits the barrel of a gun, it's going full velocity at that point and it won't speed up in the air on its own accord.

However, like a bass wave, a bullet can ricochet around and do all manner of odd things. But it certainly won't be going any faster.

[NWBasser]

Deeaa,

I see what you're saying and agree with you that the bass isn't very important in a hard rock/heavy metal context. In that genre, the bass can be inaudible.

I don't play metal though. Maybe it's for that reason that I rarely even listen to metal anymore.

From my perspective and my own opinion, in playing other less guitar-focused, music, bass is important. If I can't be heard clearly, then my presence or absence doesn't matter.

Think of what R&B, funk, soul, jazz and so on would be without a strong bass line to move the music along. I don't think you could have easily replaced James Jamerson and gotten the Motown that you hear today.

The simple fact is, there are a whole lot of nice and creative baselines in popular music where the bass player makes a huge difference. If you have some time on your hands, I can begin reciting examples...

Going back to your first point though, no I wouldn't play with Bonamossa, Hendrix, etc. unless I were being paid hansomely to destroy my hearing.

For my part, and in my opinion, everyone should be heard clearly in a band. It's my belief that the best music is made where everyone has an equal contribution.

BTW - I don't take any offense to your posting. I happen to have a fairly different musical perspective.

[Duffy]

100 watt amps can be very cool indeed, like the Blackheart 100 watt head with six preamp tubes.

As far as great contributing bass players in rock bands, in a few "rock" bands of old the bass players were key players and irreplaceable, at least in terms of the band sounding the same. Three of these being Hendrix's Experience, Noel Redding; The Who's, John Entwhistle; Led Zepellin's, John Paul Jones; and the Stones', Bill Wyman. The Stones, in particular, just don't sound the same without Bill Wyman, in my opinion. Redding, Jones, and Entwhistle had unique styles and were integral to the overall sound of the bands. Of course, Paul McCartney's bass contribution can not be discounted, although he uses a guitar player to play bass in his current band on must songs - a beautiful Gibson SG bass.

Typically though, I would agree that in average gigging cover bands that a lot of different bass players could probably do just as excellent a job in supporting the band.

One thing I noticed in most modern real heavy metal bands, screamo, etc., the bass players and drummers are generally super excellent and super loud and the guitars and vocals sound buried behind their booming rhythm - at least in my observation listening to a lot of the music my son listens to and bands he has been in. A friend of mine has a 2000 watt per channel bass power amp and he uses it in clubs: super loud, including incredibly loud head busting drummer that is proud of breaking a snare head each show. Obviously a lot of people would not want to be in a band like this but you wouldn't believe how many super loyal fans they have. They are called "Farewell Rescue".