What's the point of 100 watt amps?

[Duffy]

That explains a lot, Chojin, in terms that the average person can understand. I had no idea that the response of the ear to the frequencies of sound, and the SPL too I suppose, has such an affect on the sound we perceive; as opposed, I guess to the actual sound wave pattern generated by the amp and speaker and pushed thru the air. It sounds like what we hear is regulated by our human condition; and this seems to me to suggest why dogs, for instance, can hear things we cannot hear and can also hear things way "before" we hear them. The condition of being a dog bears with it an ability to perceive sound, as it moves thru the air, differently from us because their ears respond to sound differently from our ears do. Is this why dogs will often howl in response to a fire siren, while we respond to it passively?

Our sensory perception as humans, in this case the perception of sound waves, is seemingly limitted to only part of the full spectrum of sound wave frequencies and wavelengths in nature or the physical world. I am aware somewhat of that, just like our eyes perceive only a fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum - visible light. But the graphic representation of what our ears actually perceive as the volume of sound waves must form a curve on an x/y graph where the steadily increasing volume of a frequency is a straight line on the graph. And furthermore, from your description, the curve on the graph representing the volume our ears perceive must be a differently shaped curve for all frequencies as the volume of that frequency is increased.

Or something like this if represented in a graph where the volume of a frequency increases linearly on a graph and is represented on the graph as a straight line.

This phenomenon must have been a great mystery to early sound engineers or the predecesors of sound engineers, and must have been difficult to explain until the science of human hearing had been developed. Experts in the arts and science of sound must have been aware of this phenomonon long before it could be definitively explained and their theories validated.

A lot of us are still unaware of these principles, but dudes playing in bands, especially loud bands, figured out quite unscientifically that more powerful amps produced bass sounds more satisfying to the ear.

Is this similar, in a sense, to why deep bass woodwind instruments tend to be huge; such as in huge bass or baritone saxiphones? And in the case of drums, the need for a large bass drum instead of just tuning down a smaller tom for instance?

Why someone would need a 100 watt amp has turned out to have a lot more to it than I would have casually thought. Excellent thread.

[NWBasser]

Is this similar, in a sense, to why deep bass woodwind instruments tend to be huge; such as in huge bass or baritone saxiphones? And in the case of drums, the need for a large bass drum instead of just tuning down a smaller tom for instance?

Further examples would include jumbo acoustic guitars and of course the double bass!

One aspect that hasn't really been addressed though is how a thumpy and bassy guitar sound affects the whole band mix. In my experience, some awesome tones that sound great on their own can be disastrous in a band setting with other instruments. For example, a mid-scooped bass tone sounds sweet on its own but is a cloak of sonic invisibilty when put into a band context.

[Eric***]

One aspect that hasn't really been addressed though is how a thumpy and bassy guitar sound affects the whole band mix. In my experience, some awesome tones that sound great on their own can be disastrous in a band setting with other instruments. For example, a mid-scooped bass tone sounds sweet on its own but is a cloak of sonic invisibilty when put into a band context.

I was also wondering about why bass can be muddy, which might be part of that same discussion. I used to own a 50w Crate amp where it was bass all over the place unless you turned the EQ knob off completely, but it was wild and boomy bass -- not something I'd want in a band or even on my own.

[NWBasser]

I was also wondering about why bass can be muddy, which might be part of that same discussion. I used to own a 50w Crate amp where it was bass all over the place unless you turned the EQ knob off completely, but it was wild and boomy bass -- not something I'd want in a band or even on my own.

My experience with Crate bass amps is that they're not very well voiced (being polite here).

However, the boomines that you describe may well be the result of boundary effects in the room.

Bass can be a female dog to EQ and amplify correctly due to standing waves, reflections, phase cancellations....

[Katastrophe]

Further examples would include jumbo acoustic guitars and of course the double bass!

One aspect that hasn't really been addressed though is how a thumpy and bassy guitar sound affects the whole band mix. In my experience, some awesome tones that sound great on their own can be disastrous in a band setting with other instruments. For example, a mid-scooped bass tone sounds sweet on its own but is a cloak of sonic invisibilty when put into a band context.

Man, lot of good info in this thread! IMO, it's mids that provide the punch to cut through for bass or guitar. Lose mid frequencies on both (like a lot of metal bands do), and it can become a woofy, mushy mess. Then, a band will compensate by turning up the volume on the 100 watt (or more for the bass) stack, creating a loud, woofy, mushy mess that becomes a roar of nothing but noise.

[Eric***]

Man, lot of good info in this thread! IMO, it's mids that provide the punch to cut through for bass or guitar. Lose mid frequencies on both (like a lot of metal bands do), and it can become a woofy, mushy mess. Then, a band will compensate by turning up the volume on the 100 watt (or more for the bass) stack, creating a loud, woofy, mushy mess that becomes a roar of nothing but noise.

It's funny, 'cause at times I like big giant messes of sound, like in some...well, I'm not sure what they're considered (Black Angels, Darker My Love)...bands. I love the sound of the Big Muff on Siamese Dream by Smashing Pumpkins, but that's the whole point of that pedal.

Anyway, I don't know if I have a point. I guess it's just that if you're actually going for a big fizzy mess a la fuzz tones, I think it can be pretty sweet if done right. But I know that wasn't really your point.

[Katastrophe]

It's funny, 'cause at times I like big giant messes of sound, like in some...well, I'm not sure what they're considered (Black Angels, Darker My Love)...bands. I love the sound of the Big Muff on Siamese Dream by Smashing Pumpkins, but that's the whole point of that pedal.

Anyway, I don't know if I have a point. I guess it's just that if you're actually going for a big fizzy mess a la fuzz tones, I think it can be pretty sweet if done right. But I know that wasn't really your point.

You're right, in the right context, that "amp is about to explode fuzz sound" can be pretty cool. There are a few Smashing Pumpkins tunes that I dig for that very reason... Here's a "wall of sound" recording that I think they used some half stacks to good effect:



Note that the bass plays simply, but there would definitely would be something missing if he wasn't there.

[Eric***]

You're right, in the right context, that "amp is about to explode fuzz sound" can be pretty cool. There are a few Smashing Pumpkins tunes that I dig for that very reason... Here's a "wall of sound" recording that I think they used some half stacks to good effect:

Note that the bass plays simply, but there would definitely would be something missing if he wasn't there.

That was pretty neat. Thanks for the link.

[Ch0jin]

...... I had no idea that the response of the ear to the frequencies of sound, and the SPL too I suppose, has such an affect on the sound we perceive; as opposed, I guess to the actual sound wave pattern generated by the amp and speaker and pushed thru the air. It sounds like what we hear is regulated by our human condition;

If you enjoy mulling that concept over in your mind, consider that the exact same situation occurs with what we see. I'll be brief cause it's wildly OT, but light is also a wave (yes I know it can also be a particle, but leave that out for now). When we look at a something, the colours we "see" are in reality just our brain interpreting the eye's response to different frequencies. Blue is not "Blue". Blue is what our brain comes up with when our eyes are hit with a frequency of around 650THz.

Think about that for a while.

I have some info around the rest of your post too, but work beckons. I'll get back to the physics lesson later