PayPal Nitemare Starting!

[Justaguyin_nc]

Well, I am venting here although I am not sure if I will be on the receiving end yet or not... I want to suggest two links to you all before I go on.. http://paypalsucks.com and http://aboutpaypal.org

Now my story... If you ever noticed my Signature you may have noticed a few guitars are missing... because I sold some on ebay.. over a month ago! One of them was a Hohner ST-Scorpion which I had a shop rewire with new pots etc about a year ago.. anyways.. it was just hanging here and I really did like the sound but did not like the weight or looks of it after a bit so it sold.. now I sell everything using PAYPAL.. and PAYPAL only as I came to believe this as the safest way of selling or buying for that matter.. NOT! The person which bought this guitar after 3 weeks of having it sends me pictures of the supposed guitar's bridge and says it's broke/bent and he cant find another one.. well, it was fine when it left here and if he had a problem he should have let me know when he got it not 3 weeks later and showing it to me in parts.. I didnt sell this for much money ($139) and really the money here is not the issue as much as how it went down.. He then says the bridge was so bad the strings would not even sit on the rollers due to no tension... Heck I played this before packing it myself.. I have a LARGE picture attached showing this to be false and was the picture used to place the ad but resized.. In any case I said sorry.. item sold as all sales final as I started to believe he may doing a swap trying to get my bridge for a broken one he may have..they dont make'em any more... Well, more emails about me selling a bad product and asked him to see my side believing the bridge swap as a scenario... next thing I know PAYPAL sends me a letter... You have funds frozen due to a sale from a month ago that the buyer disputes please follow this link... I do this... I read a full screen of how the buyer swears it was broke and I sold it as working.. I got the option of refund or offer money or refuse refund.. I refuse refund seeing he done took it all apart and sends pictures I am doubtfull about 3 weeks later... OK, so on my refuse they give me a total of 200 characters to reply why I am refusing.. after he got a whole page to explain things.. so I just put down... took apart before requesting refund.. need more room to explain.. I could not tell them in there that a shop rewired the whole thing and probably knew it was not bent.. I could not tell them this was sold as used.. in any case..I believe I sold a good guitar I am getting shafted on now... PAYPAL.. takes money from your BANK to cover this... so with shipping thats like $170 (I charged $30 shipping it actually was $38 which I never said a word about) ... and you have no recourse... NONE.. ZIP.. PAYPAL has done this to alot of people and the list keeps growing... They actually will lock others that are on your accounts selling and recieving to aquire larger amounts of money as the stories go.. All I know... PAYPAL and unfortunate to say EBAY are now in my past... I can't trust buying or Selling...and I surely don't want these people in contact with my bank account or credit cards no more.. attached now is the picture of the exact guitar... look at the strings sitting in the bridge rollers here... how could it NOT be working when he received it???? I HAVE USED PAYPAL for years!!! no more!!! This will be an ongoing vent to see how this turns out... but reading at both these sites you may be doing what I am about to do..end all dealings with paypal and probably ebay.... what a shame..I lived ebay.. lol

remember to read http://paypalsucks.com and http://aboutpaypal.org I guess this does happen to everyone out here eventually...

[Tone2TheBone]

Justa - Paypal can TAKE money from your bank account? Nelskie - is that true?

[r_a_smith3530]

While I empathize with your experience, I couldn't help but notice that, in following the two links that you provided, PayPalSucks and AboutPayPal, that each of them is in business to offer another PayPal-type service, and this concerns me. While the stories linked at these two sites may be entirely legitimate, I would think that if PayPal was shafting people by the thousands, we'd have heard about it on 60 Minutes or Nightline. They love to do exposees like this.

There is no 100% foolproof way to avoid a scam. The closest to it is to deal only face-to-face, and then to only accept cash payment or a US Postal Money Order (unfortunately not an option for those outside the US). Even then you could receive payment in counterfeit funds.

BTW, you didn't mention how you sold this guitar. If it was on eBay, what was the buyer's rating? I won't deal with anyone who doesn't have a long, successful eBay track record, and as time goes on, and eBay (and therefore PayPal) becomes more popular, the chance for getting taken only increases.

It would appear that what is happening on PayPal is an unfortunate byproduct of the increasingly lawless society that we find ourselves experiencing here in America, from our leaders on down.

Lately, I've been using eBay/PayPal less, and have instead been turning more frequently to Craigslist and face-to-face dealings. I don't reach as many people with an ad, and I don't stand to make the killing that I might on eBay, but I don't face the same horror stories either. That said, one must be careful on Craigslist as well. I'm currently selling some custom wheels, and the first response I got was from someone who wanted to buy through an agent using second party funds. That is 100% pure scam!

Justaguyin_nc, sorry to hear about your misfortune. I hope it all works out to your favor in the end. Remember, Karma has a way of straightening things out eventually.

[Justaguyin_nc]

Sold guitar on ebay and think he had under 20 buys.. and although Ebay owns Paypal now that really was not the issue.. its the part that they can take your money and freeze it right or wrong is always wrong in my eyes.
I don't think those people are just advertising for others on those sites.. I believe they have been had like myself... take the time to read some of their stories... very strange practices.. unfortunate to us.. we always want to believe the little guy is the one making the wrongs in the world instead of the ones in charge.. another reason we have innocent people on death row.. we like to stay blindfolded.. its more comfy..
R. A... thanks for you comments... and with respect to you.. you don't know me so believing me and the story could or could not be true.. and it could just be to advertise the other sites.. it's not.. I been here awhile without ever having any out burst about this.. heck I even bought Roberts lesson through Paypal.. .. and till thursday I was a very strong advocate for paypal..buying online all the time through paypal.. the ONLY way to shop or sell online in my opinion I thought... but after this and I guess this is why you make it clear its not known well.. I found those links and see under all that is merry and bright actually is not.. And to be honest...as long as it happened to someone else I also believed as you and ignored these remarks and sites.. it happens to anyone and everyone eventually.. and has... This is just a word of "caution" before the words "I told you so" are uttered. I was kinda glad those links did show alternatives but none of them are for me.. back to Money Order and Cashier Checks which.. from what I am told also get scammed... but at least it will either clear the bank or the item wont ship period..oh wait thats what paypal did.. and then took it back.. out the money and the guitar.. lol... now whats the best alternative to Ebay? Craiglist? never heard of it.. any others?

[Nelskie]

Tone - My reasons for using Pay Pal are undoubtedly convenience and protection. For people starting out on Ebay, and who may not be familiar with "scammers" or "phishers", it offers a solid level of protection, and a way safely handle payments. Like any financially-based agreement, there are certain conditions of use involved, and like Justa mentioned, some of them could potentially evolve into situtations that evoke undesirable end results. Fortunately, my experience with Pay Pal has been positive, and by and large, I think most Pay Pal users have experienced successful transactions with the service. There are, of course, options and alternatives to handling purchases or sales on Ebay, and most certainly, my directing you to Pay Pal was not done with anything but good intentions.

Personally, over 90% of the transactions I've done on Ebay have had some type of Pay Pal involvement, and they have gone off without a hitch. This I attribute partially to working with honest buyers / sellers, and also, being knowledgeable with each facet of the process, and making sure that I have adequate documentation to back me up (a seller's description of services, addt'l photos, etc.) As r_a_ mentioned, there are few internet services that are 100% scam-proof. Internet commerce is a prime target for criminals, and their methods at obtaining information, or taking advantage of others have become more devious with each passing day.

Certainly, I am saddened to hear of a fellow Fret.Net member being taken advantage of by an unscrupulous Ebay buyer, and then, to have that same situation evolve into a unsatisfactory experience with Pay Pal. While there is truth to Justa's statement that "it's OK as long as it happens to someone else", it is also an attitude that turns honest consumers and merchants into skeptics.

Tone, in no way am I promoting the use of Ebay, or Pay Pal, nor condoning the ethics or validity of their end-user agreements. Naturally, I would assume that if Justa's claims have brought to light any reservations you may have regarding using either of these online businesses, that you, in turn, would act accordingly. My suggestion to any Fret.Net member considering the use of Ebay, or Pay Pal, is to thoroughly read and understand the user agreements of each. As well, to be aware that there are, indeed, risks involved to buying & selling items through internet-based services such as Ebay. If you feel even the slightest bit wary, or uneasy about the processes that involved with either, do not participate. Very simple. On the other hand, if you are acceptive to the risks, there are certainly benefits to be had.

[Justaguyin_nc]

On looking back I may have dropped a ball in one respect... The Buyer was under 20 buys.. and only purchased 3 items this year which happened to be all guitars (hmm).. If I would have stuck to ACTIVE BUYERS with more then 30 buys I would probably have never known or cared about the PAYPAL chargeback... Frustration.. Anger.. Remorse..hindsite? I think it's best to know this can happen and maybe not be so relaxed just because you are thinking your using a place that suppose to be "safe" in terms of transactions... Being adults.. we should never relax and always remember... nothing is safe... Life is a risk itself.. I still think Ebay beats the hell out of the sliced bread invention and think PayPal just beats the hell out of ya...

A good side to this.. R. A. turned me onto an alternative Ebay.. the Craigslist.. wow..there are some deals there too...and locally...

[r_a_smith3530]

Justaguy, I don't doubt your experience one iota, and please do forgive me if my last post sounded that way. My only point was that the two sites you referenced had a financial reason to gain by posting gripes about PayPal, and I don't think that's the best thing to use as an example. One of those fox guarding the henhouse sort of things, if you catch my drift.

I knew that PayPal could freeze your PayPal account, and any funds in it. What I wasn't aware of, until your post however, was that PayPal could also delve into your bank account and remove funds. For that I can't thank you enough. Because of that, I will probably be ending my active association with PayPal. Again thanks.

As for cashier's checks and money orders, they can be just as dangerous. If they turn out to be counterfeit, your bank is going to debit your account for the funds, plus any related costs. This can get expensive quick! That is why many eBay sellers stopped accepting orders from the Far East some time back.

Today, I prefer to deal locally, unless it is with an established business that has a good reputation. Elderly and Buffalo Bros. come to mind right away. Japan's Guitar Gai is another. In dealing locally, I accept cash or US Postal Money Oders as payment. Cash is self-explanitory, and to use a US Postal Money Order to defraud is a federal offense, so it is a much more secure form of payment.

As for Craigslist, I have included a link below. Craigslist was started in Frisco, and has grown since. Today you can find international links. You can find a number of good deals there, but as with anything else, buyer beware. One of the good things about Craigslist is that it is free, both for seller and buyer.

http://www.craigslist.org

[Spudman***]

NC
I had someone dispute something purchased from me through Paypal and Paypal refunded him the amount, but not from my account. They covered it. Are you sure they took money from your account? Also, if you have to refund you are entitled to your item back right? Couldn't you make up some of the loss by reselling it?

[r_a_smith3530]

Spudman, if the buyer either broke the item or substituted broken parts from another guitar to fix his and thus substantiate a claim against Justaguy, then Justaguy is screwed either way, even if he gets the item back, and even that could be a whole other can of worms!

BTW, the info about using US Postal Money Orders that I mentioned only works in the US. Once it crosses international borders (even Canada), it is out of the hands of the fed. Also, I believe there are issues with getting US Postal Money Orders cashed in Canada. Maybe one of our northern bretheren might shed light here.

[Justaguyin_nc]

Spud how long ago was that? Did they or you have some sort of Insurance attached to it for them to pay him back instead of you? Did you recieve the item back? Was it of any value over say $100.00? Did they freeze the amount of the transaction during the dispute? Did your account during the dispute have the amount in it?

Well, as for me.. yes they took it.. I never left Money in Paypal thinking that the safest way..(laugh).. it still has not been settled..its just starting.. they say it could last up to 10 weeks to dispute for some reason. As for the product returning... I have to hope it does if I lose.. and that it has all the parts it shipped with.. or I get left out of the money and the guitar.. again... the guitar sold cheap and was meant to... the money is really not an issue but more of a thorn... the process is the issue... I would have thought it would be disputed and decided then money and Item exchanged.. like after I recieved it back in the same condition it left here... At which point if they found against me and it arrived here in same condition I would give the money back plain and simple.. or at that point they could take the funds to give back... just seems like a very bad way for people to trust in the outfit... although I trusted them for years... blindly..

[Spudman***]

I don't think that my Paypal account was frozen during the process. It happened in November or October. The amount was for $23. I can't believe the guy even complained because he got a perfectly functioning patch bay. He even said it worked all right, but the rack ears were bent in shipping. What a con! I didn't get it back so he got his purchase and his money back.

Paypal sent me a copy of his statement. I sent my reply. Several weeks later they found in favor of him and sent me an email saying "we find in favor and will be issuing him a credit." No money was removed from my account. At least that I could tell.

My advice is to contact PayPal and really describe what is going on here. Take the initiative to explain to them so it is on record. Explain what R.A. says below and tell them your Ebay Feedback score. If it is good then it will demonstrate your integrity. Cover all the bases. With a lengthy, clearly thought out letter you might stand a better chance and this guy might quit cheating the system.

[Robert****]

Justa, any more news about this? I was in Sweden when you posted this and I just read this thread just now.

[Justaguyin_nc]

I assume they are still "Deciding" the outcome.. After my response they sent the automated email that it could take 10 weeks to decide.. I will surely post the outcome.. oh, I have sold on ebay since (ok i am addicted).. but its with money orders now and I wait till they clear the bank.. just can't justify their way of thinking.. and the time span they put on it..

[Justaguyin_nc]

Well, This is the email I just recieved on this case... after the buyer was allowed a page to explain why he wants to return it even though he has taken it apart and didnt contact me for a few weeks first.. and I got a whole 200 characters to explain why I thought he was wrong.. (my pictures here alone show the guitar had a bridge strings sit in) this automated note is sent with no further contact.. and once they believe he shipped it.. they will take the funds they took from my bank account and froze and return them... not even questioning me as to the condition of the guitar recieved back as I can tell... Something in this process just stinks to me... but.. life goes on.. and I go on without paypal from now on.. I will be putting pictures up of the guitar when it returns.. heck maybe even a video unwrapping it...



Here is what you get as an automated response:


Dear Justaguy_NC, (I changed my real name here)

We are in the process of investigating the following claim:

Transaction Date: Jan 8, 2006
Transaction Amount: -$169.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: (blanked)
Buyer's Transaction ID: (blanked)
Case Number: PP-141-307-031
Buyer's Name: (Blanked)
Buyer's Email: (Blanked)



This claim has been reviewed and it has been determined that a full refund
of the PayPal transaction (including shipping and handling) should be
awarded to the buyer once the item, in its original condition, is returned
to you. The buyer is responsible for shipping and handling costs related to
returning the item to you.

You have provided the following shipping address:

(Blanked)
United States

The buyer has 10 calendar days to provide proof of shipment for the item
being returned. PayPal will issue a refund from your account once the we
can confirm that the item was shipped.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,

Protection Services Department



Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link located in the top right corner of any page. If
your inquiry is regarding a claim, log in to your PayPal account and go to
the Resolution Center.

PayPal Email ID (Blanked)

[Tim]

Justaguy - What a crying shame. That's exactlly why I do not trust transactions over the internt. Some people say I am behind the times. But I can say I have never got bitten as a lot of nice guys like yourself.

[Justaguyin_nc]

Ahh, the NEXT atuomated no response possible mail recieved.. So nice they will release the funds when they are satisfied...and "with no penalty" !!!

Dear Justaguyin_nc, (Changed)

We are in the process of investigating the following claim:

Transaction Date: Jan 8, 2006
Transaction Amount: -$169.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: (BLANKED)
Buyer's Transaction ID: (BLANKED)
Case Number: PP-141-307-031
Buyer's Name: (BLANKED)
Buyer's Email: (BLANKED)

PayPal has received online tracking information for the return of your
item(s):

Tracking Company: FedEx
Tracking Number: (BLANKED)

You can resolve this case faster by logging in and indicating that you have
received the returned item. This will release the refund to the buyer
automatically. If you do not report the item returned, PayPal will verify
the tracking information and release the refund for you with no penalty.

Thank you for your cooperation.


Sincerely,

Protection Services Department


Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link located in the top right corner of any page. If
your inquiry is regarding a claim, log in to your PayPal account and go to
the Resolution Center.

PayPal Email ID (BLANKED)