Sure could use some help understanding chords/keys

[YerDugliness]

Although I've played for quite a while, I have almost never played with anyone else and have never had a lesson. In addition, I got kicked out of the only music class I was ever in ( a funny story for a different thread).

OK, I keep hearing musicians say "It's in B flat", or "It's a I-IV-V in C" (I've learned that means C, F, and G, but that's about all I know).

It's all Greek to me--I know how to make a lot of chords, but have no idea which key they belong in, of if a song in a particular key could have chords from a different key.

So, guys & gals, I'm asking for suggestions. What I've learned so far, I've learned from books, so I'd like to ask for recommendations here.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a book (or books) that would list which chords are in what key? That's something I think I could learn pretty easily; as for figuring out what key a song I hear is in, well, that might be a bit more difficult, but first things first.

Not just books, folks, anyone with who wants to share their knowlege is welcome too, just remember I have very little knowlege in terminology, so make it simple (I often quote a line from the movie Philadelphia, in which Denzel Washington says "Explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old").

Anyway, post away, please--I'm all ears (well, in this case, I'm all eyes!).

Thanks from YerDugliness!

Dugly

[Spudman***]

I think Robert has covered some of this on his Dolphin Street web site www.dolphinstreet.com. That might be a good place to start. If you don't find anything there that helps then you might want to add it to the 'request for a video lesson' thread on this site http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=3863.
This is a pretty deep subject in my opinion and my typing skills are not good enough to present it all in your thread. Besides, I probably can't explain it as well as Robert or some of the other members could.

The information is out there. Just be patient and I'm sure you'll find some answers.

[Robert****]

Your question doesn't lend itself to a short and easy answer.

For a book, I really like Edly's Music Theory for Practical People - it's got lots of theory well explained. It answers your questions, plus gives a lot of more solid theory knowledge.

I will try and work some clarifications to your questions, but I'll have to get back to you on that one when I have more time.

[250Keith]

The ( Everything Rock @ Blues Guitar Book is a real good book helped me a great deal and I always go back to it.
Take a look at it, you can find it at your local libaray to.

[wingsdad]

It ain't pretty, but I put this one-sheet reference chart together ages ago based on stuff I picked up from workshops with other New York City area players at The Guitar Study Center, run by Happy Traum, a name some might recognize from lesson books published in the 60's & 70's.



I've used it as a core piece in teaching, so that's why it's labeled 'Theory Primer' & 'Lesson 2'.

The 'Hand Signals' at the far right were used in studio settings to silently call out the key of the tune. Key of C is 'home', the signal being thumb & forefinger shaping a 'C', holding fingers down or up for the number of sharps or flats from C to call out another key. (why the illogical up for flats and down for sharps? dunno. never asked. I was dumb enuff and you never questioned older cats) Since most of us couldn't actually sight read 'real' music to save our lives, we'd have a shorthand chart for a tune giving us the I-IV-V's, etc., with slashes indicating beats & measures for each chord, but no key specified.

[snarph]

that would look a lot better if got pun in a spred sheet

[YerDugliness]

It ain't pretty, but I put this one-sheet reference chart together ages ago based on stuff I picked up from workshops with other New York City area players at The Guitar Study Center, run by Happy Traum, a name some might recognize from lesson books published in the 60's & 70's.

The 'Hand Signals' at the far right were used in studio settings to silently call out the key of the tune. Key of C is 'home', the signal being thumb & forefinger shaping a 'C', holding fingers down or up for the number of sharps or flats from C to call out another key. (why the illogical up for flats and down for sharps? dunno. never asked. I was dumb enuff and you never questioned older cats) Since most of us couldn't actually sight read 'real' music to save our lives, we'd have a shorthand chart for a tune giving us the I-IV-V's, etc., with slashes indicating beats & measures for each chord, but no key specified.

Wow, wingsdad--that is a format I think I can comprehend.

I have a question about the horizontal line on the chart labeled "Chords in the key", where I seems to be the "root" chord--II , III and VI appear to be labeled as minor chords and V as a 7th chord.

Does this mean, for example in the key of C, that the II is Dm, III is Em, VI is Am, and V is a G7? Or, are the actual chords in that key listed in the horizontal format for each key (I suspect that the actual chords are listed in each key's horizontal line, as I've been TOLD that I, IV, V in C is C, F, G)?

Just trying to get the most fundamental of grasps on all the info in this chart.

And, Robert, I've surfed into Edly's website and will be ordering "Edly's Music Theory for Practical People" tomorrow. I'll check the local library for that "Everything Rock at Blues Guitar" book, too--thanks for that tip, Keith.

For me, this is the brick wall in my transformation from what my classical guitarist friend calls a "casual guitarist" into someone who can understand the vocabulary in which "real musicians" communicate. I'm SO reluctant to join in with others when I know I'll look like an idiot when they say something like "This one's in the key of Eb", start playing, and I pretend to heard the phone ring so I can excuse myself.

Thanks SO much, guys, for this excellent start : . Anyone else??????

Dugly

[wingsdad]

Wow, wingsdad--that is a format I think I can comprehend.

I have a question about the horizontal line on the chart labeled "Chords in the key", where I seems to be the "root" chord--II , III and VI appear to be labeled as minor chords and V as a 7th chord.

Does this mean, for example in the key of C, that the II is Dm, III is Em, VI is Am, and V is a G7? Or, are the actual chords in that key listed in the horizontal format for each key (I suspect that the actual chords are listed in each key's horizontal line, as I've been TOLD that I, IV, V in C is C, F, G)?

Just trying to get the most fundamental of grasps on all the info in this chart.

Shoot, I wish I really knew how to explain that. Maybe somebody who actually knows music theory can come along and do that. Yeah, in C the I-IV-V chords are C-F-G. As for the IIm, IIIm and VIm, if you play the chords that way in sequence, (C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-B-C) you'll hear a nice, natural sounding scale. It sounds good. Play the II, III & VI chords as D-E-A and it 'doesn't leave the door open' to climb to the next note. It sounds bad.

That's my dumb explanation. I ain't Mozart. I taught/teach kids to play stuff they wann play quick. If they wanna know why, I refer them to a 'real' teacher.

[marnold***]

The way I learned it was actually via Metal Method's level 5. I think Doug (another bonus?) Marks does a great job of explaining it.

[kiteman]

In any scale you can stack the 3rds to derive chords for that scale. For example using C major scale:

The C major scale

C D E F G A B C

C E G = C major triad (or chord-very basic)

D F A = D minor " "

E G B = E minor " "

F A C = F major " "

G B D = G major " "

A C E = A minor " "

B D F = B diminished " "

You can stack another 3rd to get a major 7 chord like this

C E G B = C major 7. You can flat the 7 on the chord to make it a dominant 7

C E G Bb = C7

There's more but this is basic enough for understanding about chord constructions. You can do it with any scales.

How do you make a pentatonic scale which is only 5 notes out of 7?

Some say stack the 5ths but all I did was to remove the half steps.

C major scale

C D E F G A B C

C major pentatonic scale

C D E G A

A minor scale

A B C D E F G A

A minor pentatonic scale

A C D E G

[tot_Ou_tard]

I'm SO reluctant to join in with others when I know I'll look like an idiot when they say something like "This one's in the key of Eb", start playing, and I pretend to heard the phone ring so I can excuse myself.

Thanks SO much, guys, for this excellent start : . Anyone else??????

Dugly

Learning anything *always* involves looking like an idiot. You might as well enjoy it. It's great that you are learning theory. I've been learning it along with learning to play. I can't say that I know of an excellent book for the playing guitarist.

[duhvoodooman***]

that would look a lot better if got pun in a spred sheet

I'm workin' on it!! Here's a start, in GIF format:

(BTW, I highlighted the two "imaginary" notes in yellow)

EDIT 10/16: Added "Circle of Fifths" graphic.

[wingsdad]

I'm workin' on it!! Here's a start, in GIF format:

(BTW, I highlighted the two "imaginary" notes in yellow)

Nice work, dvm
And thanks for pointing out those 'imaginary' notes. Chowderheads like me needed a rap across the forehead with a 2x4 when we'd ask why B couldn't be called Cb...

[tot_Ou_tard]

Nice work, dvm
And thanks for pointing out those 'imaginary' notes. Chowderheads like me needed a rap across the forehead with a 2x4 when we'd ask why B couldn't be called Cb...

It ain't an imaginary note, B & Cb are enharmonic. That is the same note has more than one name. It depends on the scale & mode which is more natural to call that tone.

Notice how each row has an A, a B, a C, a D, an E, an F, & a G?

Calling it imaginary is a C-major (as well as other scales & modes) centric way of viewing it.

[kiteman]

Nice chart but you should note that it's the major scales listed.

Here's something interesting, play a C major scale on your fretboard. No flats nor sharps right?

C D E F G A B C

Move down one fret from C and play the same scale. What happened? You played all flat notes (yes B is Cb and E is Fb). This is the Cb major scale.

Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb

Move up one fret from C and play the same scale. What'd you have? All sharp notes (yes C is B# and F is E#). This scale is C# major scale.

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

[duhvoodooman***]

Nice chart but you should note that it's the major scales listed.

Which is why the name of the file is "major_scales.gif"! Wingsdad had it labeled on his original chart, to his credit.

Calling it imaginary is a C-major (as well as other scales & modes) centric way of viewing it.

It's all the fault of those narrow-minded bigots I had for music teachers in school!

[kiteman]

Damn, my memory's aweful.

[YerDugliness]

Nice chart but you should note that it's the major scales listed.

OK, this ignorant fool (that would be ME , not you, Kiteman) is getting the idea that this is an incredibly immense undertaking. So, these are all major scales. There must be minor scales, 7th scales, who knows how many other scales?????

So, if there is, say, an Am scale, does that mean that II is a Bm, III is a C#m, IV is a Dm, V is an Em, VI is an F#m, VII is a G#m, and VIII is Am (again)?????

And the 7th "key" is................. :

Obviously, a chord encylopedia is in order!!

DVM--that chart you made up is nice--this theory beginner thanks you very much for going to all that trouble. The wheel of 5ths is beyond me right now, but hopefully, some day..........

Now, ".....onward through the fog!!"

Dugly

[kiteman]

The A minor scale will have the same notes as the C major scale and also the same chords.

Because of that the A minor scale is relative to the C major scale. You can find the relative minor scale of a major scale by starting on the VI of the major scale

C D E F G A B C - C major scale
----------^---

A B C D E F G A - A minor scale
^-------------



G A B C D E F# G - G major scale
----------^----

E F# G A B C D E - E minor scale
^--------------

The major scale and the minor scale are also the modes. The major scale is known as the Ionian mode and the minor scale is known as the Aeolian mode. There are 7 modes. For example with the C major scale

C IONIAN (natural major)
C D E F G A B C

D DORIAN
D E F G A B C D

E PHRYGIAN
E F G A B C D E

F LYDIAN
F G A B C D E F

G MIXOLYDIAN
G A B C D E F G

A AEOLIAN (natural minor)
A B C D E F G A

B LOCRIAN
B C D E F G A B

Same notes same chords but different tonics (roots)

All the above are basic scales and lots of other scales are created by alterations such as the blues scale, harmonic minor, and the melodic minor to name a few.

Whatever scale you're playing with you can find the chords for that scale by stacking the 3rds (R-III-V).