Potentiometers

[ZoSo65]

Hey Bloozcat, that's some great info your providing, right on the money in my book too
Glad to have you around

[ray82609]

Yup, I was thinking .022. I have 500k pots and a .047 tone cap now, but wanted to kill some of the treble. Thanks for the info!
-Ray

[Bloozcat]

Hey Bloozcat, that's some great info your providing, right on the money in my book too
Glad to have you around

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

I've learned the same way that most everyone else has learned...by listening to others with experience and then applying that information in my own experiments.

When I think back to the days before the internet, it was like the informational dark ages. It's so great to have access to so much information and experience today. And as much fun as it is when you find the right tone formulas with your own equipment, it's just as much fun sharing it with others. It's sort of like a club that we're all members of. We all bring different talents and experiences to the club, and that's what makes the club fun.

[Tone2TheBone]

Bloozcat - I want to revisit this post due to a comment you made about the values of the pots. Question....you made a comment about a pot that you measured on your VOM having a value of 209K as opposed to the rated 250K....my question is if you used the 209K pot would you notice any decrease in output or sound clarity? What about pots that register higher than 250K, say for instance one that measures 253K. Is there a noticable difference in sound quality with a higher rated potentiometer?

[Bloozcat]

Bloozcat - I want to revisit this post due to a comment you made about the values of the pots. Question....you made a comment about a pot that you measured on your VOM having a value of 209K as opposed to the rated 250K....my question is if you used the 209K pot would you notice any decrease in output or sound clarity? What about pots that register higher than 250K, say for instance one that measures 253K. Is there a noticable difference in sound quality with a higher rated potentiometer?

Yes there is a difference in tone. The pots that register much lower than the stated value tend to sound muddier, and less clear. Those pots that register higher than the stated value have the opposite sound - brighter and clearer. If you've ever heard a single coil that was designed for 250k pots, played through a 500k pot, you get the idea. Very bright, sometimes even to the point of ice pick sounding. A potentiometer is just a variable resistor that is designed to bleed signal to ground. What I have noticed though, is that pots that register on the higher side of their stated value, tend to sound
better to my ear. We're talking 10%-15% higher here, not 100% as with the comparison I made between the 250k/500k pots. They sound more dynamic, with better presence. They also seem to respond to capacitor values better in the tone circuit.

A difference of just a few k-Ohms in a pot won't be noticable...like from 250k to 260k. Where I find the difference to be is when they start getting up to and over the 10% tollerance range...@ or > 275k.

Having said that, I've found that there are so many guitars out there that have pots in them that are well under the 250k reading (or 500k), that to change them to a pot that reads at or greater than the 250k makes a big difference in tone. Ex.: If your guitar presently has a volume pot in it that reads 206k (the lowest I've found), and you change it to one that reads 250k on the nose, you've increased the value by more than 17%. Now imagine replacing that pot with one that reads 275k - 10% on the high side. It would be 25% higher that the one you replaced. You just increased your pot value by one quarter.

So if the pot you currently have is reading 250k as they're listed, and you go to a pot that is reading 275k (10% high), you'll hear some difference, but it will be minimal. However, if your current pot is reading on the low side (206k-225k), and you swap it for a pot that is reading on the high side (265k-275k), the difference will be more noticable. It's all relative.

EDIT TO ADD: My most dramatic example that I have is with some custom wound Strat pickups. I asked the winder to give me a set of over-wound pickups to get a Texas Blues type sound. When I got them, they read 7.0k for the neck and middle, 8.0k for the bridge. Definitely over-wound. In the P-90 range it seemed. I installed them with some pots that read under 250k (230k-ish). I also had installed some no-name polyester caps. The pickups sounded good, but the #2 and #4 positions just didn't have much quack. So, I stuck pots in it that had the highest readings of any I had...279k for the volume, 265k for the neck tone, and 275k for the bridge tone (I moved the tone from middle to bridge). I then added a .015mf Orange Drop cap to the neck tone pot, and a .022mf Orange Drop cap to the bridge tone. After re-adjusting the pickup height, I plugged it into my amp. I immediately noticed the improvement in the #2 and #4 positions. They now sounded like a horny duck on ******! Sweet Home Alabama never sounded so sweet. Mark Knopfler? No Problem! All the positions had a clarity and presence like nothing before. When I cranked the amp up, it was like I had stuck my finger in a light socket. The tone brought tears to my eyes. Everything from SRV tone, to Hendrix, to Richie Blackmore just oozed from the amp. I thought I had missed the sign post up ahead and had entered the Twilight Zone. I couldn't believe it was even the same guitar. And this was without any effects.

I've had less dramatic effects with humbuckers, but I will say that the same clarity and presence thing still applies there as well.

[Tone2TheBone]

Bloozcat - I agree with you. The reason I asked was because I bought some 250K pots to replace in my Yamaha bass as the pots in the bass were scratchy...even after a decent blast of contact cleaner. I replaced the pots and plugged her in and the difference was very noticable to my ears. My bright punchiness was gone. Replaced with dull output similar to what you've described exactly. I didn't measure the pots before the install. I said screw it and put the old pots back in....who cares if they're scratchy as long as I get my sound!

After pulling the new pots out I measured them remembering your original post here. One pot read 209K and the other 215K. The old pots both measured over 250K with one at 253 and the other slightly higher I can't remember exactly anymore. I got my sound back as soon as I put them in. I suppose if I want to replace them I'd need to sort through a batch of them and find the best ones. I could also try the 300K pots too ya think? At least if those were rated lower I'd still be above 250k whaddya think?

[Bloozcat]

Yeah, I'd definitely recommend the 300k pots. I got a batch of them at home (7 of them, CTS), and they all read less than 300k. The highest was 279k and the lowest was 263k. Not good if I wanted a full 300k or better, but great for the purpose I outlined above. Trouble is, I wanted a few 300k or slightly higher for a P-90 project I have going on. Oh well, since P-90's usually sound pretty good with 250k pots, they ought to do well with 265k-279k. After all, they may be P-90's, but they don't read much higher than those single coil Strat pickups I have.

[Tone2TheBone]

Excellent. Thank you fellow techer for your insight and experience. It's much appreciated!

[Bloozcat]

Excellent. Thank you fellow techer for your insight and experience. It's much appreciated!

It's my pleasure. Always glad to help!

[Spudman***]

Blooz
Do you think for P90 equipped guitars that the 250k pots are best? 300k? 500k? Have you experimented? I'm thinking I need to put different pots in my LP with P90's because it just doesn't seem to be on the money yet. It's good but not good enough. I haven't checked the stock pots yet as to what value they are. I'm just curious what optimum might be?

[Tim]

This is really interesting information on pots. Like Tone, I am thinking of replacing the volume and tone pots in my Squire Tele Deluxe.
http://www.squierguitars.com/product...tno=0327502506

I am not sure what kind of pickups it has installed. Most likely low budget pups. The documentation just says: 2 Chrome Covered Humbucking Pickups (Neck/Bridge). The controls are also very scratchy when turned during a chord strum.

Anyway I was thinking of going to Stewart Mac to order some 500 K pots and a capacitor. I was not sure which cap to purchase. I was going to purchase a few extra values.

I have noticed when I use only my neck pickup and turn the tone control from 10 to a lower number, my volume decrease a lot. Then the tone just seems to go neutral. The bridge pickup sounds good and the tone control seems to work OK

Maybe I need to study this process a little closer before I do anything.

[Bloozcat]

Blooz
Do you think for P90 equipped guitars that the 250k pots are best? 300k? 500k? Have you experimented? I'm thinking I need to put different pots in my LP with P90's because it just doesn't seem to be on the money yet. It's good but not good enough. I haven't checked the stock pots yet as to what value they are. I'm just curious what optimum might be?

I don't think there is one certain answer to that question. It depends a lot on the type magnet used, the wind, and the general tone of the wood in the guitar. Some LP's are heavier and tend to be boomier in the low end, while some are lighter and tend to have a more middy range. In most cases I find that P-90's don't need 500k pots. They are single coil pickups, afterall. Conversely, they won't respond well at all to 250k pots that are below 250k. P-90's are generally a little more powerful than std. single coils, so it stands to reason that they should have pots that are correspondingly higher in value as well. I prefer the 300k pots for most P-90's because they can go from about 270k-330k and still be within both the 10% tollerance of the pot, and within the usable range for P-90's (although I do prefer that they be at 300k). At one time Gibson used 300k pots in some of their guitars with both P-90's and humbuckers.

In your case, the first thing that I would do is this:

1) Define the tone as it exists now. Is it too muddy, too bright, too boomy, too sterile?
2) Define the tone you're looking to get.

After you've set your parameters, then set out to correct the deficiencies one at a time. First check the values of your pots, caps, and pickups to get a base line. Once you have that, you can understand how they're influencing the tone. If the tone is too muddy, the pots and/or caps may be below spec. If the tone is too bright, the pots and/or caps could be well above the optimum spec.

I'm waiting for a parts order to arrive any day now. After I finish installing a new toggle switch in my AS-73 semi-hollow, I'm going to rewire my Agile AD2500 including the installation of shielding and some new P-90's. I'll report on how that experiment goes, and what ends up working best.

[Bloozcat]

This is really interesting information on pots. Like Tone, I am thinking of replacing the volume and tone pots in my Squire Tele Deluxe.
http://www.squierguitars.com/product...tno=0327502506

I am not sure what kind of pickups it has installed. Most likely low budget pups. The documentation just says: 2 Chrome Covered Humbucking Pickups (Neck/Bridge). The controls are also very scratchy when turned during a chord strum.

Anyway I was thinking of going to Stewart Mac to order some 500 K pots and a capacitor. I was not sure which cap to purchase. I was going to purchase a few extra values.

I have noticed when I use only my neck pickup and turn the tone control from 10 to a lower number, my volume decrease a lot. Then the tone just seems to go neutral. The bridge pickup sounds good and the tone control seems to work OK

Maybe I need to study this process a little closer before I do anything.

If it's anything like the Squire '51, it's got pretty cheap, dime sized pots and ceramic magnet humbuckers in it. IMO, Fender does a good job in providing a decent tone with these components...at the reasonable price they sell for. There's certainly a lot of room for improvement, though.

Here's a couple of alternative sources for pots and electronic parts like caps and resistors. The pots are CTS sold under the AllParts name. The electronics parts are various name brands. The caps I generally get from this source are the Sprague Orange Drops - 715P, 200v, and the Mallory 150's.

http://www.internetmusicsupply/
http://www.mouser.com

The IMS site is a little slow and quirky. Use the Netscape browser when ordering from them. For some reason, MIE doesn't work well at all...I don't know why. Anyway, the discount is worth the quirks.

Another decent pot that is sold by Guitar Fetish is the ALPHA pot. It's a little cheaper than CTS, but it's still a good pot.

[tot_Ou_tard]

This is very interesting Bloozcat. I'm gonna have to take a gander at my pots. I like to know how things work & why. Thanks!

[Bloozcat]

This is very interesting Bloozcat. I'm gonna have to take a gander at my pots. I like to know how things work & why. Thanks!

Yeah, that's me too. I'm the kid who used to break things just to see how they work...
I just love tinkering with things, and building stuff. My wife says I have the "builders gene", because I'm constantly fixing or building things around the house.

I don't believe in calling the "repair man"...I'm him...

One caveat I feel compelled to add here with all this information about guitar electronics. If there's one thing I've learned throughout all of my experiences it's, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Sometimes the best course of action is to leave well enough alone. For me it means having to fight that natural tendency to change something just because I can....not always the best course of action I've found.

[Spudman***]

I'm waiting for a parts order to arrive any day now. After I finish installing a new toggle switch in my AS-73 semi-hollow, I'm going to rewire my Agile AD2500 including the installation of shielding and some new P-90's. I'll report on how that experiment goes, and what ends up working best.

We must have the same guitar. It is my Agile with the P90's that I'm talking about. Let me know how your switcharoo goes.

[Tone2TheBone]

Yeah, that's me too. I'm the kid who used to break things just to see how they work...
I just love tinkering with things, and building stuff. My wife says I have the "builders gene", because I'm constantly fixing or building things around the house.

I don't believe in calling the "repair man"...I'm him...

Blooz - I'm the same way hence the mechanical and electrical tools lying all over the house. I put some away the other day though in my defense.