Gibson and Epi Guitar Heads

[just strum]

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm just pointing out a recent observation. I've been watching this one seller on E-Bay that sells a lot of "U fix-it" amps, guitars and recording equipment. I've been watching for a Dot that has minimal work required, but there is an abundance of Epi's and Gibson's that have this issue:



As discussed before, it is inherent in the design and you would think that Gibson would make some sort of change without taking away from the beauty of their guitars.

[tot_Ou_tard]

That picture gives me the creeps.

I don't like horror films.

I'm with Strum, it seems like a poor design. Isn't there a way to minimize the breakage without sacrificing tone?

[M29]

Nasty.

I found this on the web and looks to be a great way to repair it. http://europa.spaceports.com/~fishbake/broken/neck.jpg
I don't know who to give credit to as I did not come to this site from the home page and when I tried to get the home page I see nothing about guitars.

Actually the break is pretty clean, a good glue job might do on that one. I do like the extended grain repair though on the pic.

They often break this way because the grain is very short and not very strong at this location and weakened even more with a truss rod slot. Nasty indeed!

M

[just strum]

All Epi's or Gibson. This is not a slam on either, just pointing out that their is a design flaw or at the very least a packaging flaw.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...o/331dot20.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...o/324gib33.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...42spec41-1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...44melody31.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...o/42spec41.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1.../41apple54.jpg

[tot_Ou_tard]

Get ye a case O' tee nuts & they're all GOOD AS NEW.

[markb]

As M29 said the amount of wood removed for Gibson's truss rod end is the problem here. Add the thickness removed to seat the nut and it creates a really weak spot in the neck as Strum's pictures illustrate. There are an awful lot of Gibsons around with repaired headstocks. It's always worth checking a used Gibson or Epi for this. The front pickup rout on SGs is a similar weak point, I've seen SG bodies that have cracked right across through the neck pickup rout.

[ZMAN]

I think this is a symptom of mail order guitars. In the past they would be delived from a warehouse to the shop. They would unpack it and put it out for sale.
Now they get shipped from a Distribution centre directly on Fedex or UPS.
I have been on numerous forums and they have had guitars delivered with broken headstocks.
I think Spudman even had a strat style guitar delivered nd the neck had pulled right out of the pocket and the screws.
There is tension on the neck and when you drop the guitar even when it is inside the packaging the sudden jolt is enough to snap it.
No matter what the ups and fedex people tell you they just pack the trucks and go. The people who unload the planes are the ones that have a short deadline to get it off and get it into a truck to go to their warehouse, it then gets offloaded and put on another truck. Too many moves. I know some get to their destination unharmed but a large percentage are damaged.

[Naz Nomad]

I've been watching this one seller on E-Bay that sells a lot of "U fix-it" amps, guitars and recording equipment.

I've seen a lot of 'new' Epi's with this decapitation problem on eBay ... you'll also note how the Courier is almost always to blame ... maybe it's not down to poor design, but simply poor packaging? :

[M29]

One thing I look for first when buying a guitar is how straight the grain is on the neck. When buying drumsticks I always looked for wood grain that went the full length of the stick. Any short cross cutting grain is weak in that area. I just looked over many Strats yesterday at GC and was surprised to see the good straight runs of grain on many MM Strats as well as USA models.
I have two Squier 51' necks one off and one on a guitar and they are both very good with all the grain running straight the full length of the neck.

M

[ZMAN]

I don't know if you guys have seen one of the planes that they use for shipping. They have a totally empty plane with a ramp that comes out of the belly. They have compartments that are the exact shape of the airplane that are about 10 feet thick. They load them up then bring them out to the plane and roll them in on wheels, one after another. They have to be packed and ready in very short time period. I have a nephew that is a manager at DHL. There is a very high turn over of employees because it is heavy hard manual labor. To them a box is a box.
That is why I only buy from a Ma and PA store. I have purchased 1 guitar from MF, and when It arrived the outer package was trashed, but the guitar and case was untouched. When I saw the box I was ready to get a return authorization so I took a couple of shots of the packaging. Ended up not needing them.

[just strum]

I should point out that all my photos are from one e-bay dealer and is just a snap-shot of what was available yesterday afternoon.

However, they had one Squire with the same problem:



That was the only Fender/Squire product available compared to at least 15 Gibson/Epi product (some with electrical problems and not shown in my previous posts). The others had problems like bad 3-way switches or no output, bad pick-up..., problems that could happen to any brand. I would consider those problems more quality control and not design and/or packaging.

Bottom line, this is no scientific study and there may be a dealer or dealers out there that have greater access to Fender blems and u fix-it items.

However, as I type this, I sit here looking at my Epi Dot and SG and think - Please don't fall.

[hubberjub***]

Here's my first "good" guitar. It's a Gibson Les Paul Studio that I bought new in 1992. It went through the back window of my car in the Gibson supplied gig bag during an accident and it didn't fare so well. Frank Finocchio who worked for Martin Guitars did the repair. He used a "V" shaped piece of wood and kept the face of the headstock and the Made In USA and serial number intact. It's held great for 12 years. Pictures of my Gibson were even featured on the Martin website for a while.



That area of wood putty is from a non-related incident.

[luvmyshiner]

Nice repair Hubberjub. You wouldn't even notice it if you weren't looking for it.

It does seem curious that with all the breaks at that particular point, they wouldn't try using a harder wood, or internal supports of some kind.

One thing that strikes me odd about the whole shipping issue, most of the guitars I've bought were shipped with the strings loosened to take stress off the neck. Whereas the few guitars that were shipped by so called "experts" were fully tuned. It just seems if you know the guitar is going to be exposed to some stress, you'd want to take steps to avoid exposing it to anymore stress then necessary.

Now, Tot break out those tee nuts! If we have enough of those (and maybe a little duct tape) we can fix anything.:

[just strum]

Hubberjub,

If you don't mind me asking, what is the cost of a repair like that?

[hubberjub***]

It wasn't bad actually. Gibson wouldn't touch it. They wanted to put a new neck on for $800. That was in 1996. At that time you could buy a new Les Paul Studio for not much more. Frank did the job for me for $300. At the time the guitar was black and he even resprayed the back of the neck. It looked great.

[wingsdad]

It wasn't bad actually. Gibson wouldn't touch it. They wanted to put a new neck on for $800. That was in 1996. At that time you could buy a new Les Paul Studio for not much more. ....

Here's a little historical perspective on this structural problem as nothing new, and how Gibson has changed its attitude since it was the original Gibson from Kalamazoo:

In late 1963, I bought my first 'good' guitar, a Gibson ES330TD brand new for $260. This hollow body with P-90's was the model below the semi-hollow w/ buckers 335-Dot, and essentially the Epiphone Casino, made by Gibson in the same Kalamazoo factory at that time as their 'budget brand' economy subsidiary product, which sold new for about $200. They stopped making the 330 a few years later, not sure when.

In 1965, playing a Bar Mitzvah gig, with my band on the floor of the stageless reception hall, one of the young teen guests with a bit too much Mogen David wine impairing his balance, stumbled into the 'bandstand' and knocked over the guitar stand my 330 was resting on. She took a faceplant dive into the tile floor, and the headstock snapped clean off, looking just about like that first pic Strum posted to start this thread. (I borrowed a guitar to finish the gig.)

Not a warranty issue, for sure, I took it to the dealer (Sam Ash, White Plains NY) and they sent it back to Gibson. They took about 3 weeks to put a new neck on it for $90. She was as good as new.

[just strum]

Not a warranty issue, for sure, I took it to the dealer (Sam Ash, White Plains NY) and they sent it back to Gibson. They took about 3 weeks to put a new neck on it for $90. She was as good as new.

In 1995 dollars that would probably be about the $800 they were asking Hubberjub.

1965 = $90
1975 = $180
1985 = $360
1995 = $720

Pretty darn close.

Except today you could still get it for $90, but they would apply the candy bar principle and your guitar neck would about a foot shorter and a lot thinner, but they held their price.

[markb]

That was the only Fender/Squire product available compared to at least 15 Gibson/Epi product (some with electrical problems and not shown in my previous posts). The others had problems like bad 3-way switches or no output, bad pick-up..., problems that could happen to any brand. I would consider those problems more quality control and not design and/or packaging.

Bottom line, this is no scientific study and there may be a dealer or dealers out there that have greater access to Fender blems and u fix-it items.

However, as I type this, I sit here looking at my Epi Dot and SG and think - Please don't fall.

I have the same thoughts about my J45. Ironically, Fender decided on a bolted neck joint so replacements would be quick and simple. Their neck design is such that there's a lot more wood under the weak spot. Not angling the headstock helped too so Fenders rarely break. The problem with Fenders is body cracks due to overtightened neck bolts,, the bolt holes create a stress point in the body. I'm not defending Gibson's QC here, I've seen some with flaws that should never have been allowed out of the factory. Mind, I could say the same for some 70s Fenders I saw back in the day.

[wingsdad]

Strum: Is $6,500 2008 US Dollars about par with $260 1963 US Dollars?

Here's a link to a 'Near Dead Mint' 63 like mine, apparently on the market now or recently:
1963 Gibson ES330TDC for $6500

When you get there, this is the guitar:



I sold it when I got to college in '68, taking a fork in the road of life that led me away from guitar for 2 years, thinking I would do a 'serious' career. I think I got $300 for her; by then, she had some dings and finish checking from youthful reckless abandon.