Lesson Study Group - Hop in to discuss what you are working on.

[sunvalleylaw]

After discussing it with Just Strum, I am moving an idea I had mentioned in his "Thoughts of Lessons - Again" thread (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php?t=5213) over here to form a "study group" thread for discussing things we are working on to share the knowledge and get input. The idea is a follows, and I close with some thoughts on things I am working on to see if it starts up anything. I hope it becomes a useful thread for some of us that are slugging it out in the trenches. P.S. Someone who is not in lessons but is working on something that relates can hop in too.

On another note, (LOL, that one always gets me.) would any of you be interested in comparing notes (LOL!) on how you are approaching things? It seems that some of us are working on similar things, and Mark Wein is tracking the areas I am working on, so it might be useful for one of us to pick a lesson topic (song, scale, theory etc.) and state how you are approaching it in lessons and how you are practicing, and what is working and what is not. Kinda like a good old study group. CB, I bet you remember those from law school. Once I had my outlines down, some of my most productive study time. Anyhow, how 'bout it? If someone has an idea, start it off, maybe in a study group thread. If no one has an idea, I bet I can come up with one.

Streetmusic said:

I step in with a few thought since my Guitar teacher decided that pills mean more than his students, I have not found a replacement that I'm confident with.
So I have started concentrating on songs that I know from way back(age factor) so I have worked into playing a good portion of Hotel California , Yesterday, Stand By Me, Crazy and working on a few more. It has seemed to help me finally get better on rythm by working with songs that I already knew or at least very familar with, rather than songs that I never really cared about that much.
Favorite songs seem to hold my interest better and the fact that Kodiak got me work Stairway To Heaven again was great too, I know it's a much hated song but I like Zepplin stuff.

CB added when Strum asked about practice hints:

ok, part of being a study group is being Completely Honest. People cannot Trust you if they don't know where they Stand.

on weekdays, i Always have court wed and thurs, my rurals revolve on where they revolve. i get maybe two hours golden during work weeks, usu between 8 and 10 pm. my weekends are my treasure trove. that's where i actually perfect my playing.

my backing track is my savior when practicing. i first pick out the notes, and memorize the sequence. then i figure out what fingerings get me there fastest, and play with my backing track to get my timing down.

next?

And I said:

Ok, sounds good. I will freeform up what I am messing around with and see if it hits with anyone. As far as practice goes, CB kicks my butt. I don't have anything better to add, other than I am focusing on figuring out how to play the chords for a song, whatever song, in different places, what is most efficient or has the sound I want, then figure out what scale notes, chord tones, etc. exist in the "box" that exists in that area, then see where I can find notes by changing up the scale shape or mode.

Example: Black Magic Woman, I am playing it with barres at the 5th fret for Dm and Am, and sliding down a position for G. So I am identifying chord tones based on those barres. Then, I see how the regular old minor pentatonic fits. My instructor built me a little chart that shows what notes in that scale sound good over the I, IV, and V chords, so I add those notes in. Now, he has another chart of notes I am working with that is intended to be used with 5th string root chords and has a different sound. I will see if I can chart it out so you can see what I mean. This shape adds in some different notes and if you stay in that mode, sounds good, and different. Next we are learning the mixolydian scale, and then I am finding a root for the key the song is in, and playing mixo from there. This is very different. Next week, we are supposed to start deconstructing some songs and use the licks used to explore the above.


This is aimed mostly at improving improvisation over chords, and using some theory and structure to get me there. The goal is to allow me to move between different places on the fretboard, and also move between modes or scales as may be appropriate, to spice up soloing.

Adding the chord tones to the pentatonic, and extending the pentatonic box up and down the fretboard is coming along fine, but using the other shapes I am not used to is taking more time to get comfortable with.

IMO, a lot of the above relates to Mark Wein's recent lessons he has shared with us. A few weeks back, it seemed like a couple of us were working in this area. Warren, was that you? Part of why I want to do this study group sharing is if I write it out and discuss it with others, I tend to own it. Also, getting at an idea from different viewpoints or sources always helps. Well anyway, that is my freeform outline of the stuff I have been working on since taking up lessons again.

So I guess my "study group" question for others is in light of the above are any of you expanding your normal pentatonic soloing, and if so how? Are you using chord tones, major scale notes, notes from other modes, the inverse of the pentatonic scale, etc. Are you finding more than one place on the fret board to play in, and how are you getting back and forth? Stuff like that.

[just strum]

Geez, you must be getting a workout from Mark Wein with all those guitar terms

When it comes to moving around the fretboard, I've been using Mark's clips regarding "ask a question and follow with an answer" to try to get something out of my scale knowledge. Once I do that I try to move out of the particular scale box (probably not the term to be used) and then by ear search for other notes that fit. I do this by ear to build on being able to hear sounds more clearly and determine if they fit or not. This gets me to move around the board.

[sunvalleylaw]

Heh, Heh, well I am a lawyer, and sometimes I use more tech terms the when I know the material less well. But I think you are using the term correctly, ast least for what I mean. That is how I was doing it, and I still think it is a good way. So when you are looking by ear, try this. So when you know where you want to solo, find out which Barre chords fit there, and what notes are in the chord. Then when that chord is being played, you can solo over the top using any of the notes in the barre chord. Open chords work too if you are playing down where they are. Does that make sense?

[just strum]

Heh, Heh, well I am a lawyer, and sometimes I use more tech terms the when I know the material less well. But I think you are using the term correctly, ast least for what I mean. That is how I was doing it, and I still think it is a good way. So when you are looking by ear, try this. So when you know where you want to solo, find out which Barre chords fit there, and what notes are in the chord. Then when that chord is being played, you can solo over the top using any of the notes in the barre chord. Open chords work too if you are playing down where they are. Does that make sense?

Yep, makes sense. That sounds like a good exercise. I like doing little exercises like that because it's rewarding when it comes together or maybe explains something that you didn't completely grasp when it was explained to you earlier. When I'm working with the book Fretboard Workbook, a clearer understanding comes to me. I also found that it has helped when working with my instructor.

[t_ross33]

Well I am embarking tonight on the 2nd lesson I've ever taken, so I'll get back to ya - LOL!

Penta WHO? Solo? wazzat?

[Childbride]

[blush]

i must humbly admit that i've just been focusing on jumping in and learning songs... on the side, he's been giving me exercises to learn the I, IV, V and relative minors in all the keys [i need to work more on that, i tend to slack there just to keep up] and have not done ANY scale work.

but i've only been playing just over a year, and when i look back at how far i've come since that time, i can't help but admit i'm a smidge proud of myself... [just a smidge, i have SO much work to do! ]

you can do Anything, if you set your mind to it, and you practice your butt off.

i'm one bullheaded woman, just ask my husband.

[t_ross33]

OK, I'm back...

Gonna try to learn some Reverend Billy F. Gibbons. Ah how how how

A little "La Grange" if you please...

Tricky little bugger... to do it properly. I've been butchering it for years so I have to unlearn everything : Plus, I have to read along with the tab and I am primarily a "learn by ear" player so yet another skill I have to gain at least some proficiency in.

I'll keep y'all posted. Off to the woodshed

Trev

[sunvalleylaw]

Trev, that sounds like a great song to learn . . . . "a how how how how . . ." What key are you playing in, and what is your chord progression? I've never tried it. Oh, and what's the tricky part?

CB, no blushing allowed at study group. Well ok, you can blush as long as you participate anyway. My first year (I am now almost two years into it) I simply learned songs also. Nothing wrong with that. I am only now attacking the theory. But head knowledge doesn't mean I have it under the fingers. I feel that I can understand the concepts, but need to woodshed a lot more to make it work. Talking it out helps me with the understanding though.

[warren0728]

i've only had 4 lessons but have learned more than in those four lessons than in the last year of trying on my own....like i said i'm studying albert king right now and am working on "born under a bad sign". i hope to learn theory along with my immersion in blues and jazz....

i think my weekly lessons will help me understand online and other lessons more....

my instructor told me a funny story at my last lesson....he was having lunch with steve morse (after a workshop) and someone came up to steve and asked how he could break out of playing in the pentatonic box and steve (who my instructor said really didn't want to "talk shop" during lunch) simply said just add more notes!

point being...think outside the box and find notes that sound right with what you are playing!

I found that while practicing "born under a bad sign" with a backing track that when i tried to follow the tabs in my book i would get lost and confused (a normal state for me!) but when i quit looking at the tabs and just played... it worked better. Now we are working on some of the riffs in the song now that i have the main base lick and chords under control.

ww

[t_ross33]

Trev, that sounds like a great song to learn . . . . "a how how how how . . ." What key are you playing in, and what is your chord progression? I've never tried it. Oh, and what's the tricky part?

1. Key of A
2. The chord progression is kinda A-A-A-A-C-C-C-A rinse and repeat (sorta)
3. The tricky part is getting all the up and down picking parts right along with the little noodle-y bits the Rev tosses in for flavor (flavour for my fellow Canucks ).
4. The other tricky part is playing this a how how how its supposed to be played and not the way I've been hearing it in my head for the last 25 years

[Childbride]

i can teach others how to double strum once i get 'spanish eyes'...

learning guitar is so different. when i was [six? five?] my mother started me on piano lessons, and this is so weird, i remember this like yesterday, i would go to the neighborhood pool, and do swim team, and do my theory lessons, and do my sheet music, and learn my keys and stuff, and it was all so EASY... like learning to backstroke.

i was doing concerts at six, playing bach.

crud, this is HARD now. so much more work to make my fingers do what they are supposed to do, in the right order, in the right timing, and there are so many ways to do the same different note.

you play a 'c' on trombone, it's a dang c. there aren't 52 different ways to get there.

s'ok. i told a friend tonight that learning guitar was the closest thing to writing i've ever gotten to, it was like sinking into a hidden well of the human spirit, and it fulfills me every time i pick one up. it makes me Better than I Am. it makes me Sing.

[warren0728]

i can teach others how to double strum

no no no...one strum around here is plenty!

ww :

[sunvalleylaw]

Ok, CB, you're on! Then after the double strum, you can teach us the Mass in B Minor on guitar. Or at least Für Elise. ;-)

[Childbride]

how did you know? i did that for a recital. i will have to reach into the Long Long Ago, but i will find it for you. [giggle] [edit: fur elise]

[just strum]

I'll post my lesson update here so we can play off of it or any other fretter lessons.

We worked with Hey Joe some more, sort of putting my "stamp" on it with a little mixing up of various riffs (sort of building an extended version). I also worked on my first improv of laying a lead over Hey Joe. My instructor played the rhythm and I put down some lead. It was a lot of fun and pretty cool to move away from the structure and just put down what came to me. Some of it sounded like crap, but to my surprise I was able to get some good playing in a good portion of the exercise.

Now for my challenge that I am faced with and hopefully those taking lessons can comment and those that have proven to be accomplished players can offer tips and suggestions.

When I was playing along (playing the same chords) with the instructor I found myself off or losing the timing. I would seem to have the timing and then after time I would either fall behind or get ahead of where he was playing.

[Childbride]

When I was playing along (playing the same chords) with the instructor I found myself off or losing the timing. I would seem to have the timing and then after time I would either fall behind or get ahead of where he was playing.

there's an easy fix to this daunting problem... especially when you are learning songs that you don't have a background with.

get a recording device and record your teacher playing a backing track, singing the lyrics when he/she does it.

i do that, then play along with him during the week. i'd never be able to learn the song correctly otherwise.

i usually have him do two versions for me, one with just the individual riffs/lead/flatpicking stuff so that i can get the timing right on those, then a second where he plays the entirety of the song so after i analyze the complicated stuff, i can synthesize the entirety of how it fits together.

[edit: just my two cents, for what it's worth]

[tot_Ou_tard]

When I was playing along (playing the same chords) with the instructor I found myself off or losing the timing. I would seem to have the timing and then after time I would either fall behind or get ahead of where he was playing.

Can you ask him to run a rhythm machine (eg use a Boss RC-2) so you can concentrate on the timing? After you get in the pocket with that & your instructor you will should in better shape to lock into into the timing with just your instructor's backing.

BTW, never practice without some sort of rhythm (a metronome if nothing else).

Speaking of rhythm, that is what I'm working on. I'm using this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Rhythm-Guitar-.../dp/0793581842

It's excellent. It doesn't come with a CD however.

If you want an accompanying CD you can get the abridged version (not nearly as complete, but still good):

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Basics-...9922908&sr=1-2

[just strum]

Tot, I looked at those, but wasn't too sure about them. I bought the Funk Guitar as recommended by Mark Wein, but still working on other books and my lessons, along family and work. I think I'm a closing in on overload right now.

I need to construct my time into being more efficient with practice, but when it gets too structured I don't feel creative or capable of getting in "the zone".

Back on subject, I will keep those books in mind when I am making my next Amazon purchase.

Speaking of Amazon, Mark when is your book going to be on Amazon? I was going to purchase it from Lulu, but the shipping was about a third of the cost of the book. I'm really anal when it comes to shipping costs and many of sales have been halted due to the cost of shipping.

[tot_Ou_tard]

Tot, I looked at those, but wasn't too sure about them. I bought the Funk Guitar as recommended by Mark Wein, but still working on other books and my lessons, along family and work. I think I'm a closing in on overload right now.

What concerned you about the books?

The Complete Guide is not for someone who wants to diddle, or wants to move quickly through a book. It is foundational stuff that repays what time you put into it. I prefer solid, basic, complete, & progressive material. I'll take my time with it & make sure I get it down. I'm in no hurry to be a rawk star, I'd rather be really comfortable with one aspect than wank around doing a lot of different things. It works for me. The only issue is having to put off melody (ie lead playing) for the time being.

Be forwarned that there is no CD with The Complete Guide.