Line 6 M13 stomp box modeler

[sumitomo]

Oh come on guitartango you know we like to shuck and jive around here.I'm not gunna get rid of my pedals either.I can see myself playing other styles of music now,cause I am really liking the tones! Got my first gig,I was playing around with the looper and synths and my daughter came in and wants this errie loop thing I did at her Halloween party.Just more colors on the pallett.Sumi

[deeaa*]

What makes you think this will be outdated? It's a pedal board.

So you think it's gonna stay like it is for the next 20 or so years? Hmm.

IS the M series a collection of programmable stomp boxes or is it a modeler?
If it's a modeler, what is the difference between it and, say a POD or a GT-10 or some Zoom for instance? Isn't the only difference the approach to how you arrange and get to the effects - a big difference, yeah, but could you not replicate its functions also using like one or two PODs and a large MIDI controller? It's a very nice thought but I really doubt this thing will be getting better and better with free updates till the end of time, or that there won't be a significantly better version of the thing released in a year or a few, just like with any POD etc.

Anyway the main issue is: I've yet to hear a digital ANYTHING that sounds as good as analog. All I need to do is plug in a digital-based pedal between my amp and OD pedal and my sound goes from great to mediocre. I've tried every digital reverb unit I have been able and none have sounded even as good as the amp without any verb. What I'd need is a real tube driven spring reverb, but they are too expensive. But all these Digiverbs and revboosts and whatnot seem to be a simple way to ruin the sound for me.

That's not to say I don't love digital D/I stuff, I do significantly more recording using digital D/I gadgets such as pods etc. and they are GREAT for that, but this thing is supposed to be used with your 'live' rig and the question is whether it will be a.) up to scratch sonically compared with cheap yet proven analog stuff that sounds great b.) is it worth the money to have umpteen sounds you may or may not need really.

Now please don't get me wrong. I'm not simply dissing the thing. If I could get one cheap or endorsement (we actually talked much about trying to get some sort of endorsement/special support from line 6 after we hit our first two million listens on our songs at soundclick as we all save one guy used Line6 gear but I suppose we never did, and I guess it'd have been in vain anyway ) , I'd use one with pleasure and I'm sure I could get some incredibly good sounds from it. Same as with any quality gear, I have never used a piece of gear like that I couldn't have used for a lot of things, as a rule modern gadgets really are very good. POD XT for instance - GREAT tool.

BUT I've also spent over 20 years perfecting what I want, going through a dozen guitars and pickups to find what I like (EMG 85+SA) and lots of amps EL84 based p-t-p amp) and signal chains (near-direct to tube, just an OD in between) and even string sets and all-custom built guitars, low-wattage vintage (1976) speakers, and for that rig, I am extra super critical about stuff I can add - or remove. Basically

I have tried my POD before my amp, as well as a PSA.1 and whatnot, and nothing really seems to work like a direct or almost direct line from the mics to the amp. That's where I'm leery.

But I'd like to try this. I have an open mind. But even more so I'd love to test the latest POD and/or say the AxeFX thing because for D/I and recording those are so good. I just wonder how good can a digital programmable unit sound with a fully analog tube rig.

[Lev]

In my previous experience with multifx units I've always found one or two useable tones, dozens of mediocre tones and quite a few god awful fizzy 'digital' sounding crap.

With the M13 I've found dozens of useable tones and some truely outstanding FX. Now maybe my ears aren't tuned into the subtle nuances in tone between digital analog etc. but I know the tone I want in my head and this thing delivers for me (using a Am Dlx Strat into a Tube HRDlx amp).

I also have never used 90% of the original modelled stomp boxes on here and frankly I can't tell if they sound anything like the original and to be honest I don't care. I use this unit to create a tone that works for me and this unit gives me a pallet of tones that I've never got from any other unit (digital or otherwise).

I never gig without a backup guitar, or amp so I'm sure I'll continue to throw an OD pedal and a delay in my gig bag just in case. I've no concerns about reliability of the M13 but if you're being paid to play a gig you need to be professional enough to bring backup gear.

[richrenken]

Oz Noy is also using the M13 nowadays, isn't that so?

Ok, this is now officially my favorite forum. You guys know about and post about Oz. He is a killer player. Yes, he uses M13. He has been messing with the M9. He has been using DL4s for years. Just saw him play at the Catalina bar and grill a couple weeks ago, amazing.

[richrenken]

Well then it's exactly as I said - he uses studio (rack) gear and lots of it too?

I'm not saying DL4 etc. aren't great delays and industry standard these days.

The issue was never about Line6 stuff not being good - quite contrary. I use it and like it myself.

The issue is, would you rather have, say a Dl4 and a boss Od and a Line6 Od pedal on your board and create your own unique mix of them, or would you rather just use a single unit for everything, which IMO significantly reduces changes to get unique sounds or your own sounds, and indeed sort of also 'puts your eggs in a single basket'. No matter what brand multiFX unit it is.

What comes to the list of artists...well many of these guys are hardly known for their signature guitar sounds anyhow, but that's beside the point too. The issue is, again, if Lee Ritenour uses, say a POD, would he be using it direct-to board and solely, OR would he still also run thru his Vibroluxes and Mesa/Boogies as well to get his signature sounds?

That is the point I wanted to make. The problem therein is, perhaps many aspiring musicians can't afford that tube amp and some selected pedals and the M series as well, they have to make selections to which they wager their money on. And if I had to choose between having a good tube amp and a nice OD pedal or the M series to be played D/I as my only rig, I'd get the simple amp first. I'm pretty sure Mr. Ritenour would also keep a mesa or something if faced with having to choose just one piece of gear.

But by no means I look down on the gear itself; I've no doubt its great and all that, but it's just that multiFX units usually, for us regular folk, not just another toy that adds to sounds we use, but a choice of either using it 100% and sell all else to pay for it, or not.

Very well said. I am totally tracking with you now.

The one thing I would say about the M13/M9 though is that with 109 effects, that is a virtually endless number of combinations to create new crazy sounds.

Check out this YouTube for fun.
http://www.youtube.com/user/crxshdxm.../0/XxjRGIPv8Ds

[richrenken]

Hey Rick..

I d like to hear or see a recent and complete demo of the upgraded M13 or M9..

There are a lot of great videos of users using them on YouTube. We have a basic video on our website for the M9.

[richrenken]

Guys

I never wanted this to be a flame war or say line6 stuff is c*** far from it. I too have a toneport, V-amp2 and a zoom multi-fx pedal, all OK but lacking something (maybe they all sound toooo digital). But don't go selling all your pedals for something which will be outdated in a years time. A friend of mine has been playing for 20 years and still uses the same four pedals, OD,Wah,Compressor and a delay, do you need anything else to get great tone?

guitar products seem to be going the same way as Tv's, computers i.e buy it this year and throw it out next year as next years product will be the "next best thing".

I personally felt no flaming from you at all. I totally understand what you are saying. I was just saying that not all digital gear is here today gone next year. DL4 and all the 4 button stomps have been around 10 years. The Echo Park, Verbzilla and some of the ToneCores have become go to pedals even after 5 years. Then outside us, look at studios that troll ebay looking for old Roland and Yamaha rack mounted delays and reverbs that were digital. I think it is per piece. So with the M13/M9, you have our tried and tested and mass used effects in one box. 109 of them. You will have fun for years to come. In fact go to TGP and read Vol 3 of the M13 thread and the honeymoon is far from over after a year and a couple months, in fact the excitement and love are nothing but ramped up.

All that said, it doesn't take anything away from the guy rockin 4 killer pedals. Total blast. Or the guy that plugs his tele into a twin using a coil cord and that is it.

[richrenken]

So you think it's gonna stay like it is for the next 20 or so years? Hmm.

IS the M series a collection of programmable stomp boxes or is it a modeler?
If it's a modeler, what is the difference between it and, say a POD or a GT-10 or some Zoom for instance? Isn't the only difference the approach to how you arrange and get to the effects - a big difference, yeah, but could you not replicate its functions also using like one or two PODs and a large MIDI controller? It's a very nice thought but I really doubt this thing will be getting better and better with free updates till the end of time, or that there won't be a significantly better version of the thing released in a year or a few, just like with any POD etc.

Anyway the main issue is: I've yet to hear a digital ANYTHING that sounds as good as analog. All I need to do is plug in a digital-based pedal between my amp and OD pedal and my sound goes from great to mediocre. I've tried every digital reverb unit I have been able and none have sounded even as good as the amp without any verb. What I'd need is a real tube driven spring reverb, but they are too expensive. But all these Digiverbs and revboosts and whatnot seem to be a simple way to ruin the sound for me.

That's not to say I don't love digital D/I stuff, I do significantly more recording using digital D/I gadgets such as pods etc. and they are GREAT for that, but this thing is supposed to be used with your 'live' rig and the question is whether it will be a.) up to scratch sonically compared with cheap yet proven analog stuff that sounds great b.) is it worth the money to have umpteen sounds you may or may not need really.

Now please don't get me wrong. I'm not simply dissing the thing. If I could get one cheap or endorsement (we actually talked much about trying to get some sort of endorsement/special support from line 6 after we hit our first two million listens on our songs at soundclick as we all save one guy used Line6 gear but I suppose we never did, and I guess it'd have been in vain anyway ) , I'd use one with pleasure and I'm sure I could get some incredibly good sounds from it. Same as with any quality gear, I have never used a piece of gear like that I couldn't have used for a lot of things, as a rule modern gadgets really are very good. POD XT for instance - GREAT tool.

BUT I've also spent over 20 years perfecting what I want, going through a dozen guitars and pickups to find what I like (EMG 85+SA) and lots of amps EL84 based p-t-p amp) and signal chains (near-direct to tube, just an OD in between) and even string sets and all-custom built guitars, low-wattage vintage (1976) speakers, and for that rig, I am extra super critical about stuff I can add - or remove. Basically

I have tried my POD before my amp, as well as a PSA.1 and whatnot, and nothing really seems to work like a direct or almost direct line from the mics to the amp. That's where I'm leery.

But I'd like to try this. I have an open mind. But even more so I'd love to test the latest POD and/or say the AxeFX thing because for D/I and recording those are so good. I just wonder how good can a digital programmable unit sound with a fully analog tube rig.

I don't seem to be saying it clear enough. Our DL4 delay modeler has been around unchanged for 10 years. So yes, it will still be around in 10 more. Even if we can no longer get the parts, it will be on pedalboards for many years to come.

But, I know what you are saying. I love analog recording and when I compare listening to a CD vs the Record on a great stereo, the difference is dramatic.

Now, to rib you back just a bit. I built guitars with James Tyler for 8 years and was at Fernandes Guitars for 10 years. I have worked in the industry for 22 years. Well, I don't like EMG pickups. I think they are a pickup that has one sound, no matter what you do to them they have the same tonality. Jim would refuse selling a guy a guitar if he wanted EMGs. He may have put them in once or twice, but we definitely sent guys packing if they wanted EMGs. But does that mean I am right or wrong? No way. They are all tools. Lukather rocks them. Many guys love them.

So all that said, I think we are saying the same thing. I am just saying, be careful to not just throw the baby out with the bath water. You know why?

I have a bass I built 20 years ago coming back to me. Alder body, rosewood neck and EMG pickups. I played it a couple weeks ago and wanted it back. For me it is one sound, but it is one cool sound. For me. If I wrote EMGs off, the bass wouldn't be coming to make music with me.

[deeaa*]

Yeah, I hear what you say about EMG's...I used to dislike them myself for quite a long while. Then I was having this big problem with home recording and got me some EMG's just to battle interference, and it worked very well. Those were EMG S singlecoils. I tried the guitar with my live rig and found I liked them better than anything else I had.

The trouble with EMG's IMO is that they are so damned powerful, they usually bring any SS gear input to way too much drive and buzz. And I guess that's what many people usually equate with EMG guitar sound - EMG81's with insane amounts of gain, that's what they're most used for.

I don't like ultra high-gain stuff nor do I like 81's which I find are rather cold and sharp sounding. I much prefer 85's for they have much more low end register too. But I also hardly ever use just a bridge pickup, instead I play with both bridge and neck pickup on 95% of the time. That gives a very wide tonal spectrum and also yields a great responsiveness to playing force, you can go from almost clean to overdrive just by playing harder. With passive pickups the same would be too messy for chording etc. but that's the best part of EMG's, they retain clarity in any situation well. And for my playing style that's important, I tend to play full chords and such most of the time.

One thing I usually do with my EMG's is also whenever I play into a digital or SS system, I keep the guitar volumes at about 50%, because full power makes the sound bad.

But EMG's, for me S, SA and 85's - work wonders when they get to drive a tube amp input stage pretty much directly. I mentioned this somewhere already - I get the best sound with the EMG's directly to the amp input, but anything digital in between, even one chip or buffer stage, and the sound is utter crap.

Yeah, EMG's work with tubes, but not so well with digital/ss. However the latter can be corrected to a large extent by never using full guitar volume.

[deeaa*]

BTW I just recently demoed quickly and with crap playing how much I like how EMG's give a great clarity and tonal range also by playing style changes, even with an SS high-gain rig like my Tech-21 TM10 'bedroom amp' with no FX at all. Funny enough, though, on this clip the amp is actually set to clean british, but the EMG's still make it sound pretty high gain, unless you play it very very softly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDk8CXW3oSk

And here's my first EMG guitar...with this I fell in love with how you can have them very dirty and screaming and still you can just throw in some full 6-string chords and it keeps the clarity without effort. With passives the same is very hard to achieve; at the stage when single-string stuff is screaming, full chords get way too boomy.

But I dunno...when I go thru my recordings all the way back to late 80's one thing sticks out to me: my guitar sound has pretty much since the early 90's been quite the same, no matter what rig I've used. And I've used a LOT of different rigs from Les Pauls to Telecasters and Fender amps to Marshalls and whatnot, original, seymour, gotoh, whatever pickups, openbacks, closedbacks, sometimes with pedals, sometimes without, D/I, live, modelers and nonmodelers. They all sound fundamentally just the same on recording after I've tweaked the rig to get my own sound....live I can hear plenty of differences but on recording...really no matter what I use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA9RNM0qb_Y

EMG's are an acquired taste I guess...now and then I play some passive guitars and yeah, in some respects they sound softer and maybe a little more lively too, but then I try to play some songs and instantly get annoyed by the lack of clarity in comparison with actives.

I've been thinking I should probaly also give a shot at those Seymour Blackouts.

[deeaa*]

Here's a good example of some of my rigs testing...playing my EMG guitar into a real vintage JMP combo (2203 I think) and a 99% solid-state JMP-1 rig as well.

Basically the sound is very very much the same, much more the same when listened to live but of course the 10" speakers and the SS power stage and closed cab make the modern JMP sound somewhat boxier.

Still, it also shows how much different an EMG pickup can sound into a tube amp and an SS rig. Or similar, whichever way you want to look at it :-)

Anyway, this is where them EMG's rock...the 2203 Marshall has no overdrive or anything, it don't need it, even if it's a basically clean amp, plug in an EMG guitar directly and it screams and wails ;-)

I should have put some digital reverb in between too and show how that ruins the sound completely...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD7bCGY7b0g

[Spudman***]

The trouble with EMG's IMO is that they are so damned powerful, they usually bring any SS gear input to way too much drive and buzz. And I guess that's what many people usually equate with EMG guitar sound - EMG81's with insane amounts of gain, that's what they're most used for.

I have found the SAs in my Luke to be just the opposite. Compared to all but one set of my passive single coils on my Strats they are much lower in output. That is one reason that I like to play the Luke because I get to turn the amp up more - then it really starts cooking. They aren't hot pickups at all.

Listen to the blues sounds of Tyler Dow Bryant playing the Luke for blues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnVYzqsqjQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhG6zrZVOWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkJP0vOphCc

[deeaa*]

Oh yeah, SA's aren't hot. I meant the 81 etc, I guess most people think those when they think EMG. 85's are plenty hot, though.

I don't really know what is the output level...or is it something else in the sound, but if I plug into say a Tech-21 with an all-SS input stage, it's instant high-gain stuff, even with the amp on clean. It certainly doesn't do that with a strong Seymour equipped axe. But then on my tube amp the both sound roughly the same volume, with the passives even having more bag end. Go figure. But anyway, they sound great with half volume :-)

[Blaze]

This kid Tyler Bryant is pretty good ,he Shure has the spirit & feel, on a Fender Strat here..

[Lev]

Starting to go a touch off topic here?

[guitartango]

Starting to go a touch off topic here?

Yep lets get back to ribbing Line6

[Spudman***]

Starting to go a touch off topic here?

Oh heavens! That almost never happens.

I can't imagine how we made it over 120 posts without drifting any further than we did.

[sumitomo]

Yep lets get back to ribbing Line6

Good one I like it! and Robin Williams would reply,'If you want ribs get some barbeque.'

Hey Spud,Lev or Monkus have you found some setups for rockin' blues stuff you like.I have just been trying different setups for know to find some I like before I make some scenes.One I like is colordrive,63 verb,digital delay,parametric eq.I leave off the verb or delay or add one or the other.But I like the tone,naturally I fine tune the knobs and have found different amps like different adjustments.Sumi

[richrenken]

Yeah, I hear what you say about EMG's...I used to dislike them myself for quite a long while. Then I was having this big problem with home recording and got me some EMG's just to battle interference, and it worked very well. Those were EMG S singlecoils. I tried the guitar with my live rig and found I liked them better than anything else I had.

The trouble with EMG's IMO is that they are so damned powerful, they usually bring any SS gear input to way too much drive and buzz. And I guess that's what many people usually equate with EMG guitar sound - EMG81's with insane amounts of gain, that's what they're most used for.

I don't like ultra high-gain stuff nor do I like 81's which I find are rather cold and sharp sounding. I much prefer 85's for they have much more low end register too. But I also hardly ever use just a bridge pickup, instead I play with both bridge and neck pickup on 95% of the time. That gives a very wide tonal spectrum and also yields a great responsiveness to playing force, you can go from almost clean to overdrive just by playing harder. With passive pickups the same would be too messy for chording etc. but that's the best part of EMG's, they retain clarity in any situation well. And for my playing style that's important, I tend to play full chords and such most of the time.

One thing I usually do with my EMG's is also whenever I play into a digital or SS system, I keep the guitar volumes at about 50%, because full power makes the sound bad.

But EMG's, for me S, SA and 85's - work wonders when they get to drive a tube amp input stage pretty much directly. I mentioned this somewhere already - I get the best sound with the EMG's directly to the amp input, but anything digital in between, even one chip or buffer stage, and the sound is utter crap.

Yeah, EMG's work with tubes, but not so well with digital/ss. However the latter can be corrected to a large extent by never using full guitar volume.

See, and even hearing you lay out how you use them made me understand them more than I did before. That is all I am here to do with you guys and M13, just let you know why we did this or that.