Need Some Clarification

[Duff]

I wish I knew where I could find an inexpensive near exact replica of a Seymour Duncan JB nickel covered or a SD '59 nickel covered, because the GFS crunchy PATS are not the same and my knowledge of cross referencing pickups is not existant; but that would be great to see a chart or list of pickups that are inexpensive and are very close replicas of a lot of the famous big time pickups we all love.

Another thing I noticed is that Fender doesn't disclose the technical details of the pickups on a '09 American Standard strat; and, evidently, according to the Fender customer representative, the company doesn't sell the stock pickups. So how do you even know what pickups you have? I suppose people have taken them out and studied them and know the answer or know someone from Fender that revealed the details, but the average guy doesn't know.

In any case there are a lot of outstanding really impressive aftermarket pickups out there that don't sound like the stock pickups, but that is not comparing apples to apples.

[just strum]

Guys,

I don't believe anyone can blind test and make out any differences between any mostly similar pickups, like Seymours of similar-output power, distinguish between them or put in order & repeat the feat reliably.

In real world, there is NO real difference between any regular humbucking pickup using the same structure and basically the same materials and winding. By using totally different magnets for instance you can get differences, yes, but they are so small you only need a 1/30th turn of yer tone knob to negate the changes.

Let me try to understand this. What you are saying is that if you take Gibson 57's and compare them to "like" pick-ups of another brand (Duncans, DiMarzio or .....), you will not be able to hear a difference?

[deeaa*]

Let me try to understand this. What you are saying is that if you take Gibson 57's and compare them to "like" pick-ups of another brand (Duncans, DiMarzio or .....), you will not be able to hear a difference?

Usually you will hear a difference but that is because you won't find and udually not even try find a pickup with exact same values. But, yes, if you swap a Gibby 57 to any pup with just the same values, same build (covers/no, magnet type), then any differences can only come from loose potting or such.

Usually there are differences due to age etc. but what I'm trying to say it doesn't matter if its ghs, gibby, duncan, whatever, just that the output and build is what you want.

Pickups are VERY simple. You can build your own easier than bake a cake. There is no magic or mystery to them, although that's what manuacturers would have us believe.

[deeaa*]

I wanna clarify further; as with anything else, there are subtle differences to pickups for sure, and with age they accumulate traits like loose the coils a little, magnets weaken etc. and so on and on...

But the bottom like is they are much much more similar between each other than people, based on reports etc. seem to really think. I've tested it several times too. The tone of an electric probably changes much more by swapping the body to a mahogany one for instance than by swapping a DiMarzio to a Seymour, unless the new pickups are clearly different from the originals.

But, say you swap a nice $50 bucker for a $200 bucker that has the exact same output level and build type...I really can't believe anyone who claims they could spot the difference in a blind test. That's what I mean. The user probably does hear even a lot of differences; well he _wants_ to hear a difference and he'll adjust it and play it and probably will end up with a difference in tone, but I'm sure it's not the pickup, it's how it's set up, how the polepieces are set and so on.

IMO there is no sense in swapping a, say a better quality Epi pickup to a same type/power Gibson pup...whatever differences there may be are surely smaller than a small twist of a tone knob.

Now, if you're changing the build, that's another story. P90 is entirely different from a bucker, or a single, or active, or minibucker, or stacked, or coverless/covered, with staggered poles/large/small screws, alnico/normal/vintage magnets...all these are totally different in sound between each other.

But a 11.2 DiMarzio Alnico and a 11.2 Seymour Alnico and whatever 11.2 alnico bucker...there is virtually no difference between those.

[deeaa*]

I wish I knew where I could find an inexpensive near exact replica of a Seymour Duncan JB nickel covered or a SD '59 nickel covered, because the GFS crunchy PATS are not the same and my knowledge of cross referencing pickups is not existant; but that would be great to see a chart or list of pickups that are inexpensive and are very close replicas of a lot of the famous big time pickups we all love.

Indeed it would be great! I don't think SD makes the nickel covered JB any more? But, you used to be able to see the output values from their webpage...then just find something close to it...may be hard though.

[wingsdad]

Indeed it would be great! I don't think SD makes the nickel covered JB any more? But, you used to be able to see the output values from their webpage...then just find something close to it...may be hard though.

Here's a link to the Duncan comparison chart with all that stuff, the JB series is on there.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/comparetones
You can download DiMarzio's product catalog (pdf) and find a pickup spec comparison chart. The one I downloaded a couple of years ago has it on the last page.
http://www.dimarzio.com/site/#/pickups/

edit: I have the Gibson Pickup guide pdf I found on their website a couple of years ago, and tried to upload it as an attachment, but the file's too big, overlimit. I tried to find it on thier site now, but I'm outta time...

A brainiac with time on their hands could create a comparison chart from these sources and build on it with whatever specs they can find on the bargain basement variety knock-offs.

[Eric***]

In real world, there is NO real difference between any regular humbucking pickup using the same structure and basically the same materials and winding. By using totally different magnets for instance you can get differences, yes, but they are so small you only need a 1/30th turn of yer tone knob to negate the changes.

Of course there's going to be a difference between, say a Seymour and a cheaply made chinese copy but between those groups it's damned hard to notice any real differences, and I bet if there are any, 90% of it is plain imagination.

I know you have taken some heat for this assertion, but I think you're right-on. It's kind of freeing to me to know that you don't have to buy super-expensive to get that elusive pickup tone, because...well, I'm cheap.

It makes me wonder what other things are veiled in mystery and don't really mean as much as some think they do. Cables come to mind...

[sumitomo]

Oh,Oh I have an answer for ya Eric,the pickup besides the ohm's and all that,well it generates a magentic field and your cable,well let me use something else I can use well a spark plug wire the spark plug wont fire off if it dosent get a good signal if there is a lot of resistance in the wire also the cable will act like a radio antenna if it is not shielded well.Here's a little something for your tool box,on cars mostly Asian cars most electrical probs are not because their not getting power it's because of bad ground's.Sumi

[Eric***]

Oh,Oh I have an answer for ya Eric,the pickup besides the ohm's and all that,well it generates a magentic field and your cable,well let me use something else I can use well a spark plug wire the spark plug wont fire off if it dosent get a good signal if there is a lot of resistance in the wire also the cable will act like a radio antenna if it is not shielded well.Here's a little something for your tool box,on cars mostly Asian cars most electrical probs are not because their not getting power it's because of bad ground's.Sumi

OK. Are we talking about the same thing here? I was referring to the fact that those 'premium' cables (e.g. Monster) don't really offer much difference from cheap cables in terms of signal. A cable is a cable, as long as it's shielded and low capacitance (I think).

Now I'm hijacking this thread. Sorry...

[sumitomo]

Nope there is a difference.Sumi

[just strum]

Now I'm hijacking this thread. Sorry...

My thread and I am enjoying the conversation.

[Duff]

I definitely find major differences in high quality cables, a great improvement in the sound.

Also, I am not convinced that any two like pickups with the same ohm rating will sound the same, as in the Seymour Duncan JB and another fifteen or sixteen ohm pickup.

Other factors go into the construction of the pickup other than the DC impedance to arrive at the actual output and sound. Sumi or someone much more educated than me can easily answer this seemingly mystery.

I like gfs pickups but would bet that they can't compare to the closest Seymour Duncan. Actually I might like the sound of the gfs better but it won't be the same sound. I love my new GFS Crunchy PATs, don't know if it compares to the SD bridge but the gfs does NOT have the power of the JB covered or open coil. That neck gfs crunchy pat is incredible, pure beauty.

Also, the Seymour Duncan JB is available in nickel or gold covered and in the trembucker format at this time.

Many engineering variables go into building pickups; it is a dynamic process and a lot of testing and experimenting is done. Read Jay's comments on the gfs pickups if you want to hear about it. Do you think Jay is jiving you?

[Eric***]

OK. Are we talking about the same thing here? I was referring to the fact that those 'premium' cables (e.g. Monster) don't really offer much difference from cheap cables in terms of signal. A cable is a cable, as long as it's shielded and low capacitance (I think).

Other people have read this before, right? I think I saw a link to it either on here or maybe in some HC thread before.

Also, there is this and this, but they're not quite as clear. The first one does bring up an interesting question, however: why are mic cable low impedance and instrument ones high impedance?

Am I way off here? Anyone? I thought this was pretty much par for the course.

[oldguy]

A good quality cable will sound better than a cheaply made, poorly shielded one. I doubt one made of gold rather than copper would be worth the cost.
I tend to agree with deaa about pickup construction. If two pickups are built exactly alike, same materials, values, etc., I don't think many people could tell the difference in a blind listening test.
I'd even say the same about amplifiers. The JTM45 was based on the Bassman. Not an exact copy. If you build an amph with the exact same materials and components, and copy the circuit right down to the wiring routing, I doubt many people could tell the difference. I'm not saying no-one could. I mean, if Eric Johnson or EVH heard it, maybe, sure.
But most people, no. Which is one reason the clones being built sell. They copy the popular amphs as close as humanly possible, and they sound the same as the classic circuits. Same with the clones of popular pickups.

[wingsdad]

... The first one does bring up an interesting question, however: why are mic cable low impedance and instrument ones high impedance?...

Not all mics are created equal. I'll try to answer that question in accessible terms, at the risk of maybe oversimplifying.

Some -- almost all condenser mics, and high quality dynamics like Shure SM57's and 58's are Low Impedance (a/k/a LoZ), and it has to do with the the strength/sensitivity of the mic's pickup/output requiring less resistance to get thru clearly, and that's why they need a balanced signal (i.e., the 3-pronged XLR) to keep the hum & noise down from being shot thru with little resistance.

Guitars & High Impedance (HiZ) mics, basically, cheaper Dynamics, like the ones you stick into a pocket tape recorder...or a guitar amp...need to have their signal 'knocked down' to be manageable, as in 'distortion free', and to contain inherent hum and noise. Some good dynamics used to be offered with an option to be Hi- or Lo-Z, and that had to do with then-current mixing board technology. And, you can get adapter/converters that convert Lo-Z XLR to true Hi-Z 1/4".

bottom line why Lo vs. Hi: it has to do with the signal strength/sensitivity of the 'pickup element' that's converting audible soundwaves into electrical energy so they can be amplified and converted untlitmately back to audio.

[Eric***]

bottom line why Lo vs. Hi: it has to do with the signal strength/sensitivity of the 'pickup element' that's converting audible soundwaves into electrical energy so they can be amplified and converted untlitmately back to audio.

I won't claim to have completely digested all of that, but thanks.

What would you recommend for learning about impedance, balanced/unbalanced, instrument/line level, phantom power, midi, etc.? I keep finding tidbits here or there and understand the individual parts, but haven't quite put it all together yet.

There's a lot to know, huh?

[wingsdad]

Well, Eric, I made that post, then left for work, and wondered if I mighta made you or anyone else dizzy...it sounds a little inside/out, trying to explain 'ins & outs'...can get a little twisted.

A lot to learn? Only if there's a lot you want to do. By that, is your goal to learn how to do live sound and/or recording engineering, or just to understand it enough to be dangerous (to the soundman or engineer who may be incompetent but pretend to be otherwise, leading you to sound like. crap) ?

MIDI? I know zip. Just that it's a style of woman's skirt that hits somewhere between the knee and the ankle. Don't want to know, cuz I don't need to know and I don't care to know.

As for where to start to get a handle on it all? I could copy & paste a boatload of website bookmarks, and I'm sure many here will have their personal favorite or 6.

From the questions you've asked and the answers you've been seeking, I like this as starting point resource center...

http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/

...well-organized, easy to navigate, and while it belongs to a retailer, the 'buying guide' aspects are meant to help the consumer decide what they really need at a point they can afford; not what some chowderhead at GC or MF wants to cram down your throat to empty your wallet PDQ.

Relax and enjoy the journey....

[Duff]

A lot of the technicalities of electronics are very serious subjects that are not simply or easily understood. People go to college for years studying electronic engineering, get degrees, and continue thru their lives continuing their electronic education, via semminars, internet searches and independent studies both formal and diy.

Some people try to learn about it by themselves. This leads to the mentioned idea of learning enough to hurt yourself.

I'm not trying to turn you off, but electronics are very dynamic; everything is intermixed with everything. There are different types of voltage and current and all sorts of circuits. There are libraries full of theories and experiments. Then on the other hand, Leo Fender was an appliance repairman; but I'm sure he had some help, Fullerton or someone that helped him in the early stage, then of course highly trained engineers and designers as the company went to market in a REALLY successful way.

I have been messing around with electronics since I was about 15 and got my first motorcycle and found out that NONE of the local mechanics knew anything about electrical circuits so I got Chilton and Haynes manuals and an electrical multi tester and started to learn how to read the circuit charts. Did a lot of studying since then and to be truthful, I can't answer most of your questions regarding electronics. Plus electronics is constantly evolving, midi, usb, etc.

Your interest in this stuff might be the beginning of a life long learning journey. The learning curve is like a mountain; but you can still get a basic understanding of what all of the terms mean without knowing about all the technicalities that only intense study will reveal.

[Eric***]

Some people try to learn about it by themselves. This leads to the mentioned idea of learning enough to hurt yourself.

Your interest in this stuff might be the beginning of a life long learning journey. The learning curve is like a mountain; but you can still get a basic understanding of what all of the terms mean without knowing about all the technicalities that only intense study will reveal.

The problem is that I think I already know enough to be dangerous -- now I want to know enough to be useful!

I don't know that there's any practical application of my desire for more knowledge. I suppose it's just intellectual curiosity: I stumble across terms and want to know where they're applied or how things fit together. For instance, I understand WHAT a balanced (TRS) vs. unbalanced (TS) signal is, and roughly what a balanced line does (subtracts out background to eliminate noise, I think). However, when and where these are used, why it would be important for a computer audio interface to have balanced outputs, and how this relates to stereo vs. mono are all resultant questions.

You're completely right when you say that 'everything is intermixed with everything,' which is why I keep needing/wanting to know more! I've found plenty of people who know some, but not all of what I want to know.

It's the sort of thing where once you know some terms, you notice it everywhere and it just makes you want to learn more. I'm not that interested in the theory of doing laplace transforms or anything like that, but a firm grounding in the audio side of electricity would probably satiate my curiosity for about...a week or so.