I may never buy a used guitar again...

[FrankenFretter***]

I did an article a few months ago in Premier Guitar about just this subject: counterfeit guitars from China. It's quite a racket. I did some "covert" investigative journalism, pretending to be an interested customer getting ready to order from one of these Chinese bogus sites. The guitars are about as well made or a little worse than your average Epiphone. I have played several. From a distance, the average listener or concert/club attendee couldn't tell the guitars were fake, but up close, a trained eye can spot them immediately. The Chinese do all kinds of underhanded sh** to sell these things. It isn't against the law to buy one, but it is a moral decision only you can make. You're buying a fake, an instrument that violates the property of legitmate companies.

Here's a link to Bob's story. Good stuff!

[marnold***]

Here's a link to Bob's story. Good stuff!

Yep, Bob's got some good stuff in there.

[syo***]

I just wanted to make a point here that several on other sites didn't grasp.
.

You do make some good points Ch0jin. I tried to watch the videos but they are "not available in my country".
As I am someone who does lots of business in China, I do feel compelled relate some of my own personal/professional perspective. I'll preface my comments with a little background. For the past 6 years I have been working with companies all over China. Mostly in the musical instrument business. As some of you know, this past year I have been pursuing a side project of starting my own guitar company. Because of my own labor abuse concerns, I routinely visit factories/workshops prior to doing business. If there are not adequate+ working conditions and wages, I will not do business. I have a Chinese assistant who helps me with this.

You cannot look at the (perceived) cost of materials only and make a comparison.


Lets say for arguments sake that the raw materials for a genuine Fender cost $200 and the raw materials for a fake cost $150, yet the genuine sells for $1000 and the fake $200. "The fake is almost as good and for that price it can't be beat" is the cry of some.

Sure, a chunk of that premium price goes to marketing, executive salaries, distribution and retail margins, and likely a fatter margin than the fakers, but think about the percentage of the price you pay that goes to ensuring the factories are safe for workers. The money that goes into preventing sweat shop workers being chained to the bench for 20 hours a day.

As you correctly stated, marketing, exec. pay etc. are important factors. But the "chunk" that goes to worker safety is negligible. What really drives the price up is the cost of labor and storage. But this really isn't the problem that you suggest because while wages are so much lower, so is the cost of living. Someone earning the equivalent of a US minimum (poverty level) wage could live extremely well in the areas where the guitars are produced.

Simply put, fakers aren't legal in China either, so they have no obligation to meet any standards. Particularly health and safety standards for workers. If I had children I sure as heck wouldn't want to support an industry that puts them in a factory at 12 years old and keeps them there.

While the garment industry is notoriously bad all over the world, I have yet to see anyone close to 12 years of age anywhere on site at any music related factory. People usually work 9:00 -5:00, 5 - 6 days a week. While guitar fakers are not "legal" in their activities, they are usually legal manufacturers of non-pirate merchandise as well. Admittedly intellectual property and trademark protection are not well-appreciated concepts yet in China. But more demand for quality Chinese brands sold overseas will change this over time.

I've also heard it said that worker conditions and so forth are "Not my problem, thats the Chinese governments problem". In part, sure. But it's mainly supply and demand. You can't support the fake trade and then blame a government for enabling you to do so.

Poor worker conditions should be a concern for everyone. Piracy though, I believe, plays a small part in the problem. Huge international corporations trying to squeeze pennies are the main culprit. Those pennies often mean more work and less pay so that manufactuers can remain competitive and so that those in the west can enjoy cheap, socks, toys, and most other hard goods even cheaper. With the huge explosion in China's production the past 15 years, the government couldn't hope to keep up with abuses and corruption is common.
Just like in Britain, the US and pretty much everywhere else, the best labor practices evolved as the market matured. This is not an argument to exploit developing labor markets but it is a fact.

Lastly, my favorite point.

Think about it. You're not really buying that fake Rolex, Les Paul, Gucci handbag or Nike trainers because they represent a good quality product for the price point. You're buying it because its got a brand name on it for less than the real thing. The fakers are cashing in on peoples vanity.

I am against piracy but I am also against the ridiculous luxury goods market. Both are cashing in on peoples' vanity. Except that the fake buyers aren't wasting their money...

[Duff]

Gibson has its own ethical problems: importing illegal rosewood and ebony from Honduras and probably elsewhere resulting in FBI raid a couple months ago, years of advertizing their LP's as "solid" body guitars while secretly chambering the bodies to make them feel lighter and therefore seem to be made from the lighter, more desirable grades of mahogany, coming out with the chambering practice as if it is the next greatest thing only after they got caught at it after doing it for several years. They hid the practice under dubious rationale, probably considering the practice "intellectual property" or something.

The counterfeits are scam artists that should be stopped, no doubt.

Our government could stop inbound shipments from listed violating companies and confiscate the counterfeited goods. Why not? Why expect China, I mean "China"??? to do anything about these companies? I think we will be waiting a long time for China to start policing these guitar counterfeiters. Think about the environtmental pollution coming out of China. Do you think the gov. is doing anything about that in any significant way? I doubt it.

Buyer beware is the old saying.

These fake guitars are really an affront to American's intelligence and the US government. It shows how weak our customs accountability is. If this is a large scale scam it really makes us look foolish.

I'd say Syo has a handle on the concept because he goes to China a lot and specifically has professional knowledge of the guitar manufacturers, the owners, managers, workers, and so forth. Therefore he knows how the scam works because he has probably seen a lot of things that just are not right by American ethical standards. Really wrong things I'm sure.

In that kind of a developing economy there has to be really ridiculous practices going on, in a super super competitive industrial environment. A lot of the companies are probably trying to do anything they can just to stay in business because of the intense competition. Ethics deteriorate to even lower levels as desperate enterprises try to figure out even more low cost scams to stay in business.

These fake Gibsons and so forth are really a pitiful example of how unscrupulous some of these operations are. And they are doing it in the open. You can order this stuff from them, send them your money, and get the fake stuff sent to your house without anyone stopping them. It is like organized international corporate crime.

China hammers Google but turns an apparently dim eye toward these outlaw industries. They are supposed to be tough on crime in China. Maybe they will round up some of these clowns and subject them to some of the archaic punishment we see them handing out to other people in China. I seriously doubt that though, because these are good sized businesses with probably a certain amount of influence and maybe even operating under government subsidies or licenses.

Syo probably knows quite a bit about this particular scam.

Good luck, by the way, Syo with your guitar mfg aspirations.

[Ch0jin]

Thanks for posting SYO, I really appreciate your point of view. The closest I've come to dealing with Chinese manufacturers was in Malaysia rather than China, and I dealt with big name manufacturers in any case, so your experience is much more relevant. (I have been to China, but as a tourist)

As you correctly stated, marketing, exec. pay etc. are important factors. But the "chunk" that goes to worker safety is negligible. What really drives the price up is the cost of labor and storage. But this really isn't the problem that you suggest because while wages are so much lower, so is the cost of living. Someone earning the equivalent of a US minimum (poverty level) wage could live extremely well in the areas where the guitars are produced.

I could have explained myself better there I feel. What I meant by "worker safety" was that the factory complied with local health and safety laws. I felt it a safe assumption that if you are operating illegally there is no reason to adhere to relevant standards. This applies to environmental impact as well as worker health and safety. As you say though, I might be overstating the impact of this on cost though as I am unfamiliar with what it costs to be compliant with applicable laws in China.

Call it a theoretical objection

I am completely aware of the wages/cost of living equation though thanks to my passion for world domination...oops I mean world travel I've stayed in some of the most expensive cities (Tokyo for example) and some of the cheapest (Phnom Penh).

Poor worker conditions should be a concern for everyone. Piracy though, I believe, plays a small part in the problem. Huge international corporations trying to squeeze pennies are the main culprit. Those pennies often mean more work and less pay so that manufactuers can remain competitive and so that those in the west can enjoy cheap, socks, toys, and most other hard goods even cheaper. With the huge explosion in China's production the past 15 years, the government couldn't hope to keep up with abuses and corruption is common.
Just like in Britain, the US and pretty much everywhere else, the best labor practices evolved as the market matured. This is not an argument to exploit developing labor markets but it is a fact.

Agreed 100% However my point was more along the lines of illegal=no regulation=exploitation. As I said just before though, a theoretical objection.

One thing not mentioned though is the grass roots impact. From what I've seen (on TV) it's not at all uncommon for a pirate factory (or a legit factory that manufactures fakes in parallel) to start up in a remote area and employ most of the people from the area. If you know that smashing a fakes factory will put an entire community out of work and decrease their standard of living, it's a lot harder to grab the moral high ground I try to take. It's sad that as a result of the worlds rabid desire for branded objects that entire communities could be building their economic structure around companies/factories that could be torn down. Just another way of looking at it.

While the garment industry is notoriously bad all over the world

I'd go so far as to say "They started it" actually. I have no love for that game at all.

.. I have yet to see anyone close to 12 years of age anywhere on site at any music related factory......

Nothing but good news there. I probably watch too many documentaries to keep perspective sometimes

I am against piracy but I am also against the ridiculous luxury goods market. Both are cashing in on peoples' vanity. Except that the fake buyers aren't wasting their money...

Agreed re:vanity, kinda disagree re:wasting money.

Taking the worst offenders, the fashion/garment industry, I know that paying retail for branded clothing Vs paying for fakes will see the customer with the fake get substantially better value for money. No argument there, but my point all along has been that a fake product is likely to represent less value for money than an equivalent off brand product.

For example, when I was in Cambodia a while ago I picked up a couple of fake branded t-shirts to wear as mine were getting filthy. I'd have thought it hard to mess up making a t-shirt, but they were very ill fitting and made of some kind of fabric that looked like cotton, but did not breathe at all. (later I'd see this same kind of thing in Thailand, Vietnam, China etc). After tossing those T's I bought a couple of plain T's from a "local" store for the same price. 100% cotton, well made, and I still wear a couple of them 4 years later.

The fakes were made using absolute bottom of the barrel t-shirt stock and relied on people factoring the brand name into the value equation. To get back to guitars and the topic, I'd suggest the same is true of these fake guitars.

See what I'm getting at?

[Ch0jin]

....
These fake guitars are really an affront to American's intelligence and the US government. It shows how weak our customs accountability is. If this is a large scale scam it really makes us look foolish.....

Not just the US mate, this is a world wide situation.

[Duff]

I see Chojin, it's like the sleeping dragon awakened, flamming the entire world economies, indiscriminately, with hot fire and cold fire, good products and junk products. It sounds like the Industrial Revolution all over again, just in another part of the world; child labor, low wages, non-existent labor management relations or worker unions, uninforced safety and environmental standards, people living in super cramped quarters at company compounds, cotrolled by the big brother industrialists and government, afraid to speak out against anything or say anything that might threaten their shaky, at best, existence. The education level is probably also not very high in rural China where these factories are located. A little money is WAY better than no money. I read too many Clive Cussler books.

I don't know, it's just a mental image that is forming in my mind reading about these factories and factory towns that spring up in the middle of nowhere, exploiting a ripe labor force.

[Jimi75]

Those Chinese fakes are ridiculous. The foto finish flame....OMG...can it get worse? Still a lot of new players who believe the fake and buy such instruments.

I buy used instruments, but not at ebay or any other online source. I have to see and play the instrument. There are well known authorized dealers who have professional knowledge. That is where you can buy used instruments, too.

[FrankenFretter***]

This post has really generated some very interesting dialogue, and some great points.

Capitalism is a very new thing in China, and they've grabbed hold of it with both hands and run with it. Granted, it is their own version of capitalism, but it is changing the country rapidly. We've certainly fueled the fire based on large industries desiring less overhead and more profit. Greed and vanity is what drives the growth of industry in China. Buying a counterfeit guitar is rarely done because it's seen as a good deal on a quality instrument; it's to impress people with the name brand. There are plenty of bargain-priced Asian-made guitars out there that are great quality, and NOT counterfeit.

I find it interesting, or perhaps morbidly fascinating, that the counterfeiters are producing better copies all the time. They read the forums. They read the Gibson articles on how to spot a fake. They pay attention, and they adapt the products. I had read that the Les Pauls (or Ling Pauls, as they're known in some forums) used to have three-screw truss rod covers, and no control cavity or switch covers. They do now. They're also learning which models have how much binding, and where. They're getting better, and it's getting harder for us to know which guitars are genuine. Perhaps Gibson will go the route of MS, and have a unique registration number for each guitar that you have to call in and verify. There need to be some way to tell a fake from the real thing that the fakers can't duplicate.

That's my vent for the day. Talk amongst yourselves...

[syo***]

Duff, Ch0jin, this is probably going well beyond the original point of the thread (sorry frankenfretter), but you raise some good points.

I haven't gone native and I am hardly an apologist for the very real abuses that exist in China and many other developing countries. But I must say that alot of the reporting that is done on all things China dwells overwhelmingly on the negative. Sure there are knock offs in China but they are hardly the driving force behind the world's second largest GDP.

Most of my business has had to do with violins. It is a very established industry, one that has taken many who lived in poverty to quite a decent lifestyle. Many violins sold as European instruments are actually 90% Chinese made. Laws in some European countries allow for a designation of "made in Belgium" (for example) if the distributor uses Belgian made fittings and set-up. These are usually quality instruments made by a skilled and upwardly moving workforce. I have paid anywhere from USD $50 to $8,000 for violins made in China. The top instruments are made by world class makers whose work sells for considerably less than some inferior European instruments merely because the general perception of Chinese goods is lower.

What I've learned in my past year around the Chinese guitar industry is that it is a rapidly maturing business. Although not as long established as the violin, thanks to the influx of foreign (mostly American and Japanese) expertise, China does now produce many excellent guitars. Certainly the export of knock-offs represents a tiny fraction of a percent of all exports.

I will relate one story when I first started checking out factories. The first factory I visited had a complete lack of ventilation in the painting rooms and nothing but paper masks (and often no masks at all!) for protection. I had to leave quickly as the fumes were seriously overwhelming.
My Chinese assistant, who has lower standards than I when it comes to workplace conditions, was appalled. After we left, I seriously wondered if I would be making any guitars in China. I was depressed and still shudder at the thought of the place. I have since visited many factories and have never again come across such horrible conditions. In fact I have found many professionally run businesses with very good safety standards/working conditions.

What makes the above story even worse, is that this factory is 100% foreign management who set up and manage it. Further, it is a factory that manufactures some OEM guitars that get great buzz on this and other forums. They don't produce knockoffs so far as I know.

I truly believe it is in the interests of the government in China to raise living conditions for everyone as, at the very least, it ensures their survival. It isn't happening without abuses however. With such rapid growth abuses can be difficult to police. But then there are still some sweatshops in the First world too...

Well I've expended enough air. Sorry for being so long about it.

[Duff]

Syo, no dude. You don't need to apologize. You have first hand knowledge of what is happening in the guitar industry in China, and we should know about the status of its conditions, safety, environmental quality inside and outside the factories, management practices, etc.

So many US companies have moved to China that it is astounding. As you alluded to, it is a growth type of thing and here in the US the "limits to growth" are getting pushed; hence very expensive US made Gibsons Fenders and so on. Passing a certain limit the average person can no longer afford the American made guitar and, oftentimes being economically sensible rather than nationalistic or loyal to American production, luckily finds a really well made guitar coming from another part of the world.

As I indicated before, the US government - the trade commission or whatever, as well as the governments of other countries, should require that certain human rights and factory conditions are maintained in these offshore industrial operations.

Our government could instantly pull the right of US companies to operate in China at any moment, just as the gov of China could expel our citizens from China at any given moment in time. Other concerned countries could also immediately suspend any operations outside their borders without hesitation.

I have met people from China that work there in factories making products for the US. I noticed that they work very hard, oftentimes working for free on their own time, just to try to insure that they will keep there job and be perceived by upper management as assest - because, they tell me, there are thousands of other workers that would LOVE to have their job. These workers sound like they are not valued very highly and are largely expendable.

Now, I understand that a super skilled machinist or engineer or designer or even factory floor assembler would be valued very highly because of the key role that they play in quality of production. These people are most definitely treated way more reasonably than the run of the mill employees that can be bought in straight from the street and taught everything they need to know to do an excellent job within a relatively short time, or no time at all.

It is incredibly interesting that you mention that some of the factories that engage in the worst health and safety practices are ones that are operated and managed by our own professionals. Professional would be using the term lightly here, in light of the paint room scenario: that is just plain irresponsibility and probably even illegal in China to put a person in an environment like that to work all day. Imagine that? That is a sad image for me to visualize.

As was said, industrialization in the developing world is an evolving process. But precedents have been set here in the US and in Europe and elsewhere that have resulted in standard operating procedures that ensure worker safety and health, and eliminate child labor, etc. It is not like WE have to reinvent the wheel. We already know what it is and choose to ignore its existence and exploit ripe labor markets that don't have environmental and health requirements that cost A LOT OF MONEY. It is a greed motivated type of thing.

Here they jump ship leaving American workers totally trained and out of jobs and forbid anyone that buys the old factory from making the product that the local workers are highly skilled at making. This is as unethical as requiring offshore workers to work in less than humane conditions.

The world turns and we turn with it. It is really really hard to change the course of the river.

[FrankenFretter***]

As was said, industrialization in the developing world is an evolving process. But precedents have been set here in the US and in Europe and elsewhere that have resulted in standard operating procedures that ensure worker safety and health, and eliminate child labor, etc. It is not like WE have to reinvent the wheel. We already know what it is and choose to ignore its existence and exploit ripe labor markets that don't have environmental and health requirements that cost A LOT OF MONEY. It is a greed motivated type of thing.

First of all, let me just say that I am not now, nor have I ever been a union worker. That said, the labor unions had a lot to do with the worker standards we have now, including the safety standards. If (and it's a big if) China were to develop labor unions, they may see some progress on that front. In a repressive gov't such as theirs, that seems near impossible, but I have seen many thing happen in the last few decades that I thought were impossible. I hope for the sake of the people there, they do institute some national policy that is strictly enforced regarding worker safety and welfare. It could happen.

[Duff]

Remember the Chinesse dude and the tank?

What ever happened to that guy? Anybody ever hear from him again?

Anyway, they are all communists; like one big union, right? Cleaning up these messed up factories and straightening out this criminal activity should be a short order for them.

Seriously though, my new Vox AC15c1 is a really nice China made amp. A lot of really really good products are coming out of China. Our Classic Vibes we love so much come from China. Whoever made these items are good workers that obviously take pride in their work and probably value their jobs.

There has to be mega money going back into China and a substantial proportion of that money has to be going back to the workers and people, in one way or another. Then again, there are SO MANY PEOPLE in China that mega amounts of money going into the economy probably is diluted very significantly, just by the sheer number of people living there and the massive superstructure of the country and the cost of maintaining it, even at a marginal level.

Maybe Syo knows if the factory owners are allowed to keep the vast majority of the profit or if there is a big stockholding class that benefits from the profits. Do the workers in some of the plants get to buy stock or are they given "x" amount of stocks. Do they have profit sharing in any of the plants? It is possible that there are incentives for excellence. Seeing so many excellent products coming out of China would seem to suggest that something is going right, at least in some places.

[Ch0jin]

Remember the Chinesse dude and the tank?

Of course. Tiananmen Square 1989. Protesters take to the streets of Beijing to mourn the death of Hu Yaobang, a Pro- Democracy campaigner. As with plenty of large public protests, all kinds of of other groups joined in as well and the protest was eventually put down violently by the military. The image you reference is, as far as I know, the only image (or one of very few at least) that came out of the whole event. It depicts an unknown man in a white shirt blocking the path of a PLA tank. I was in the very same spot only last year.

What ever happened to that guy? Anybody ever hear from him again?

Shortly after the iconic photograph was taken he was ushered back into the crowd by a small group. Friends? Concerned citizens? Secret Police? Nobody knows for sure, but as far as I can tell, he has never resurfaced.

Anyway, they are all communists; like one big union, right?

If you mean all of China, then yes. They run a single party system and the governing party is the Communist Party of China, making all of China a communist state.

Cleaning up these messed up factories and straightening out this criminal activity should be a short order for them.

I get where you're going with this, but I don't think anything is going to be that simple in a country of 1.3 billion people, single communist state or not.

To go completely and utterly off topic....

If you get the chance, Beijing is a great city to visit. For a city of some 22 million people I was amazed at how clean, slick, modern and organised it feels. (especially after experiencing what 18-20 million people in Cairo feels like.....) Not Tokyo slick by a long way, but impressive nonetheless.

[Duff]

I was joking that because they are communists, comparing it to a big union, looking out for the general welfare of all the population, particularly the working class person, is their main communist objective and alternative approach to government and economic distribution of wealth among the people.

I doubt that anything like that is happening. They have no power to protest or initiate workplace change and are probably dominated by an upper class of some type, probably not refered to as aristocrats, but the managerial elite or business owners or something of that sort that consolidate all of the decision making power and all other power. There is probably a HUGE group at the bottom of the socio-economic pyramid that don't have anything coming and live basically hand to mouth, with few, if any opportunities to move up the ladder of society. They are likely very passive and apathetic. Easy for the power brokers to manipulate in their ostensibly warped version of communism and capitalism.

Syo would know best about the demographics since he has seen the situation first hand, especially out of the cities in the rural industrial areas.

[SuperSwede]

Boys boys boys...

Besides we do not want the chinese government to attack us with their army of hackers.

[syo***]

Boys boys boys...

Besides we do not want the chinese government to attack us with their army of hackers.

I don't know what's worse. Being hit by hackers or getting busted by officer Swede...

But you make a valid point. Apologies for veering off the cliff. A cliff which by the way, has been moved here...

http://www.thefret.net/showthread.ph...573#post171573

[Virgman]

Those are very "good" fakes.

Unbelievable.

[duhvoodooman***]

Boys boys boys...

Besides we do not want the chinese government to attack us with their army of hackers.

Not only off topic but straying perilously close to a political discussion--and those are precluded by the Fret.net forum rules. Just sayin', guys....