How Do YOU Feel About File-Sharing Music/Video

[Robert****]

First of all, this is a bit of a hot topic, so let's be civil here.

I am interested to hear your thoughts this whole illegal music downloading/sharing scenario we are experiencing.

There's some people who argue that it's a good way to sample before you buy, and that it in fact helps sell more as a result. Really? As a whole, I personally doubt that. There's a lot of bums who like to get stuff for free, and never intend to buy what they "sampled".

Some people argue that the record companies are so large and wealthy and can afford that some people steal what they are selling. That might be true to some degree, but there are many small record companies trying to run a business selling music they love. If they fail, the artists themselves may fail too. Very few artists are great business people, and they often need skilled people in the areas of promotion and selling what they create.

My feeling is that we may end up with a society where everyone think it's normal to go to a torrent site and start downloading whatever you want. There's some logic in trying before you buy, if you do buy something in the end. I just wonder what the real ratio is, in reality. Download 1000 songs and buy how many? 5? or 50?

Personally, I think that if the creators ultimately benefit financially from the theft, then all is good. Perhaps more people will come to a band's tour gigs, or go see the special 3D screening of a cool movie (Avatar). It might cut off some middle men, and perhaps that's a good thing too, I don't know.

However, if the artists aren't getting paid for their hard work, well then that means no food on the table for them, and perhaps in the end we won't have certain artists around anymore. Perhaps there will just be artists like Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus around to "sample". That would suck.

I have certainly "sampled" music too sometimes. I try not to, and instead I check out music on youtube instead. If youtube allows it, it should be okay. I don't sample movies though; that takes too long to download - I'll rather just buy a DVD for 10 bucks somewhere. I also legally download (and pay for) a lot of music from iTunes. It's very convenient.

How do you feel about the subject? It's an ethical issue for sure, and I think it's important to discuss, especially with younger people. "Everybody does it", is a poor argument, but I have heard teenagers say that many times. As a parent, I find this topic can be a bit difficult to talk to teenagers about.

[sunvalleylaw]

I don't do it. I feel an artist, and those that contribute to the rest of the chain, recording, producing, marketing, distributing, etc. need to be paid. If an artist sells direct, like Dick Dale, and lots of other indie artists, then they should get paid too. So I don't get the whole "get it for free because you can" thing.

I will also say that the traditional music industry had played a significant role in causing the problem. And I also believe that some of the enforcement crap that has gone on is ridiculous. As usual, targeting the wrong people. I mean when you read about some individual facing some massive penalty as a consumer. Sure they shouldn't have done it, but the penalty often seems way out of hand (based on the media reports). But as always, two wrongs don't make a right.

[Ch0jin]

...And I also believe that some of the enforcement crap that has gone on is ridiculous....

It's not just legal threats anymore either. I had a major French company in the enforcement business basically running what amounts to a DoS attack on me.

They were port scanning me trying to intercept BT traffic every few seconds, for weeks. Soon as I found out (hello 4GB log file) I took appropriate action.

BT file-sharing is NOT illegal. It's sharing of copyrighted material thats illegal.

Some of these "big brother" companies seem to feel that just running a BT client like Vuze is cause for weeks and weeks of non-stop port scanning and packet sniffing just to see if I'm going to up copyrighted material belonging to one of their clients. (I've never uploaded copyright material, period) Isn't that basically a 21st century illegal wiretap?

Also, given that my IP is clearly in a range used by Australian ISP's, where the heck does a French company get off even looking? It's not like they could prosecute even if I was sharing illegal material.

Wow, I guess I was more pi**ed about that than I thought! I feel better now.

I wish I knew the answer to balancing peoples desire for free stuff with keeping everyone paid, but I just don't. The discussion should also include convenience too. You can download a whole album faster than I can find my car keys, let alone get to the record store. That's also a big factor I feel.

Oh and on the OTT prosecutions and threats to -downloaders-.

It's the same as throwing the kid with the dime bag in gaol for 20 years and not bothering with the dealer.

No up's = no down's If you wanna hunt, hunt the uploaders, not the downloaders.

[Kazz]

Sticky subject. Suffice it to say I know what torrenting is....and I know about torrent clients. I have never uploaded anything, but I do download.....more sporting events than anything I guess....but here is my thought on downloading music.

How many times do you buy a cd to find out there is only 1 good song on it. Yet you would have to pay the 10.99 + to buy the entire cd to get that one decent song. There are some exceptions to the rule. Tesla I would pay any price for their cds because EVERY song is great in my opinion. The Black Crows "Shake Your Money Maker" is another one that you can listen to from top to bottom and over and over again.

That is not the case with most cds that are released.....they contain way too much filler. I do not nor will I ever pay for and download music via Itunes. I will buy Apple products such as the Ipod and Ipod Touch....but I am not paying them a dollar or more to download a single song.

What I would like to see is a pay to play or download service where you pay say $20 - $50 a month to download as much as you want music wise. Those fees would of course go to the artist with a share going to the service provider......heck each label could have their own provider....that part I do not care about.

Make it similar to Netflix.....(Sarcasm)then of course you have all these tech smart kids who are uploading and downloading everything from Mom's cooking recipe's to secrets of the United Nations. (/Sarcasm)

[Eric***]

Complicated subject, Robert! Just in writing this, I thought of about 30 different aspects in this discussion.

Overall, I think it's fine. Basically, the face of music is changing, and those who want it to go back to what it was will need to eventually come around to the new business model. I just don't see the industry going back to what it was. Availability of music content is SO much greater than it used to be, and it falls more on the end user to figure out how they want to support the industry.

I have emailed record companies before, telling them what it would take for me to be on board with buying my music from them (considering the alternatives), but nothing changed. Surprise, right? The point is that the knowledge is out there for what it would take to bring a large segment of the population back to paying for music, but the companies don't want to do that. They want to play on their terms, even after that's been proven not to work.

I still pay for most music and go to shows, but I wish I didn't have to work around the infrastructure so much. A paypal account for artists would be a nice option, but that would ignore all of the other people involved in bringing the music into my world.

I expect to be crucified by many many self-righteous people for writing this, so have at it.

[sunvalleylaw]

Nah Eric, no crucifixion necessary. Just your opinion. I hear what you are saying. I get that there needs to be a new business model, but plain taking something because you can doesn't seem to build any sort of sustainable model.

Kazz, I although I guy from iTunes, I also buy by the song from Amazon. Just as convenient and sometimes cheaper. Then I don't have to buy filler. I used to really feel the same way you did about albums back in the 80s when you really could not buy individual songs except for vinyl singles. And I did not want to buy those.

[Retro Hound]

With things like iTunes and Amazon and many indie labels selling individual songs the whole "I don't want to buy the whole CD for one song" argument is no longer relevant.

The way I see it, theft is theft, no matter who you are stealing from. Just because it's a "rich" company doesn't make it right. Just because I don't like the way the system is set up now doesn't make it right.

I've downloaded a few songs, I usually end up either deleting them or buying the CD. I really do "sample." Is this a song I want to hear over and over, or is hearing it occasionally on the radio enough? A month in rotation usually tells me the answer.

I buy a lot second-hand at garage sales and such. But that is something that has always been, it's not another copy of the item, there is a limited number of physical items. I've got almost 1000 albums and 400 CDs, so I do actually purchase stuff I like.

[Spudman***]

I don't really 'feel' either way about it. Now it's more a case of the cat already being let out of the bag, what are you going to do NOW?

There has got to be some marketing alternative and security alternative to the current situation. Otherwise, our music availability and the musicians creating the music wont be able to survive.

Most of what the artist needs a record company for now is for promotion, distribution and the advance money to create the project. If a paradigm shift will happen with those issues then maybe some form of the industry will survive and flourish. Without the promotion machine in place the days of 'rock stars' is probably going to be over. It will become a culture of folks with a studio in their home marketing their music however they can. There will certainly be a lot of great music, but probably no domination of personality such as we've seen with Madonna, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift etc.

With our current technology making it so easy to disperse music all over the world in an instant, there really is a security issue, but there is also an incredible opportunity. It's just a matter of finding a way to make it work.

I do think the record companies have been raping artists for too long and I welcome the chance to put more money back into the pockets of the artist where it rightfully belongs. There are just a couple of issues to solve before that can happen. I'm sure there are a lot of smart people with their thinking caps on trying to figure this one out. I would be tickled if I was the one to solve the problem because it would probably make me very wealthy. And that, my friends, is going to be the motivational force to solve this. Money will find a solution.

[deeaa*]

Um,

Yep this is complicated.

My take is...I have bought, what, I dunno, something like 600-700 Cd's or DVD's in my life. Quite a few of those I've also bought - the same albums I mean - also on LP before that, and a few also on cassette. Now I've ripped 'em all to my iPod and tossed the physical discs somewhere. I've soon bought a hundred Xbox games and satan knows how many pieces of sofware and such over the years for the PC, starting with every single version of Windows releases since 3.11.

I've bought music off iTunes or other web stores too.

But it's complex. I really listen to very little new music most of the time. I really don't want to pay anything if I'm going to listen to the album maybe twice, and even then maybe just sample a few of the songs on it.

So yeah, I rip a lot of stuff from friends...you can borrow CD's and DVD's from libraries or your friends and rip those...and it's completely legal here too, or leech off the Internet, which is legal as well - just hosting files is kind of illegal, downloading isn't.

Now if I really come accross a CD rip I really like, that don't automatically mean I'd go out and buy it. I might if I see it on sale somewhere later. But I'm more likely to buy the next album from the band.

Spotify is also completely changing the ballpark...my wife listens to it all the time. I never listen to radio or such, so we basically listen to spotify anywhere.

I just wondered about this when I was traveling.

We would be in the hotel, and rather than watch some local telly, we'd just stream the shows that are running off the web. I guess those services are largely at least semi-illegal, but, the way I see it, I anyway pay for my TV use and cable in several different ways, I can quite legally record thousands of hours of TV material on my web recording server and watch them any time (I never watch live TV really - why should I?) so if I find sites where I can just stream Finnish-subtitled TV series and movies anywhere in the world, I see no problem with using it, even if it happens to be 'gray area'.

Then we'd also have Spotify running a lot of the time...and seriously, I dunno why I keep lugging even the iPod anywhere any more, because I have wireless internet on all of my machines including phones and can just keep Spotify going and it's all included in the fixed monthly price.


Yes, I think that in a few years most if not all music, films and software will not only be free but also not installed on people's machines but rather just streamed there.

Think of how it is now - I walk around in London and I can just stream music from spotify and use Google Maps to navigate, everything comes off the Internet and no need to think about storaging music, installing maps etc.

That's how it's gonna be pretty soon in everything.

I don't see much point in owning and buying physical copies of films, music, books, games, hell even money, when it all can be handled in the digital domain so much easier.

To hell with all physical things that can be digital, and I do believe it will soon prove impossible to stop people from pirating everything if they want too.

[marnold***]

For years the recording industry dug in their heels and refused to do anything for digital downloads. I wrote something for a website I used to write for probably 10 years ago calling on them to offer a service much like what Amazon's download service has become. My point was make it legal, easy to access, and relatively inexpensive and pirating becomes less worthwhile. But they fought it and fought it until it was too late.

Add to this the fact that the recording industry, in contempt of Congress, continued to artificially inflate the cost of CDs for years. On top of that, every time you buy blank recordable media, a portion of the price goes right to the recording industry, under the assumption that it will be used for piracy. Nevertheless, piracy remains illegal. There's also examples of movies/music that I wanted to buy for years, but it simply was not available anywhere. The most notable example for me was "Spinal Tap" which you couldn't buy because they were trying to drive up demand for the anniversary DVD/VHS.

I feel badly for people trying to break into the music industry, but those feelings are tempered every time I watch something like "Behind the Music" and see how successful artists blew all their money on drugs, etc. I don't feel very bad if downloading is cutting into someone's heroin habit. I get irritated when I have to do something that is, at best, legally dubious in order to play DVDs that I bought on my Linux box. I'm also irritated that the consequences for downloading copyrighted material are greater than running over your next-door neighbor with your car.

I buy all my MP3 stuff legally from Amazon. I'm never going to buy music that is DRM-encumbered, basically leaving it up to the whims of the likes of Apple and the recording industry to determine when and on what devices I can listen to music I legally purchased.

[deeaa*]

Well if you think how little of a CD's cost goes to the musician...

Anyway, as you say, the only way to fight piracy is to make legal use even easier and cheap enough not to matter.

Right now, I can for instance decide to watch, say Shutter Island.

Option 1: just download it off the web in full HD to my media player hooked to my telly BUT I can't be sure of the quality, sound and such. The download could take 35 minutes OR it could take a full day depending on traffic and seeders. Plus side, it'll have Finnish subtitles if I grab those too.

Option 2: watch it off the Xbox in live streaming OR download to HD and watch. FullHD as well, can start watching immediately, and assured quality - costs a few bucks. BUT no Finnish text available.

Option 3: watch it live streaming from a video rental service over my Digital Receiver, which is even cheaper, but no full HD available. Still, Finnish text available.

These days, I use the Xbox most. I don't need the texts. Still, they're good to have especially if you watch with low volume at night. Even English text for the hearing impaired would be nice. Once they get the texting issue dealt with, I don't think I'll resort to either two other options no more.

But one thing is for sure: I will never even remotely consider buying the movie as Blu-Ray or DVD or whatever, and basically just contribute to all the waste out there already - not to mention tenfold the price.

[deeaa*]

(come to think of it, there's many other options to watch the film still.)

4 - download in iPod format, watch off that
5 - download as xVid and watch on the telephone
(both options easy in that it'll be like 300 meg download, i.e. seconds or minutes to get it)
6 - watch it off some probably illegal Internet streaming service
7 - walk to the nearby library and borrow it for the night for free (unless it's out just now, they usually don't have very many copies of films, especially new ones)

But yeah, I think I'll fire up the Xbox...it's so easy with that. And absolutely legal yet very cheap too & good quality.

[deeaa*]

And still...now that I read what I just wrote it just makes me wonder why on earth should I ever buy any music in physical format either any more.

Not that I have, in a loooong time. But I guess it's only now hitting home how archaic it's getting to be.

[Robert****]

To me, the worst problem here is the musicians are suffering from illegal downloads. Most of them NEED their record companies to help them get their music out there. It's not about the "record companies can afford it anyway" - without them, many artists would be starving.

Quote from a Scott Henderson, full time musician and one of the greatest guitar players on earth:

Here's what happens if I blow off working with record companies. First of all, goodbye to my advance, which covers all the recording costs including paying the musicians, including myself. And where will I get the money for five to ten magazine ads? Guitar Player and Down Beat charge about 4000 per ad. Who's going to pay the publicist 2000 a week for the first month of the release, to call all the magazines for interviews and reviews? Who's going to market to radio? Not that it's a giant market for jazz, but the right phone call from an established label can get results. Should I quit practicing and writing and go into the record selling business? No thanks, I'd rather let professionals handle that and I'll concentrate on making music.

The label I've been on for many years is run by Mike Varney, one of the most honest people I've ever known. Now Mike tells me that he can't give me the same recording advances he could before, because half my fans will buy my record and the other half will download it for free. Mr. Pantload says the music industry should die and we musicians should just use the Internet. Great idea, that should put millions of people out of work. Let's do away with the film industry too - actors and directors should also work for free. Well, let's give James Cameron a 100 dollar budget for Avatar 2. He can do it on YouTube and we'll all watch it on our laptops. Hey Pantload, get a clue. I don't know what business you're in, but let's say you've got the brains to be a shoe salesman. What if I said the shoe industry should die? That makes about as much sense as what you're saying. Before you wish for the death of the record business, first try to make a living as a musician.

For most musicians, our CD is our art - we work our asses off on it and when it's done, we feel like we've given birth. It's a big deal. Knowing that people are going to get it for free doesn't exactly inspire us to make another one.

[Heywood Jablomie]

Like the drug war and other ill-conceived law enforcement efforts, the ongoing battle between the recording industry and individuals is ultimately pointless. And just like the drug war, if you remove 1 supplier, there will be another to fill the void. Kazaa got zapped, but did that stop pirating? Nope - LimeWire filled the void. LimeWire just got shut down, but there's Torrent as well as many other sources. The fact is, millions of people have computers and will use them to copy all sorts of copyrighted info, not just music or video. And the fact is, the recording industry exists in a brand new paradigm where they cannot control distribution in the way that they'd like. They can beat on the legal angles all they want and still will not be able to accomplish what they desire. New technologies are a challenge to old technologies. When digital imaging started to become the standard for photography, the film industry had to adapt or die. Such is business. Will Kindle and other electronic book devices spark a book pirating phenomenon that'll become the next pointless legal battle? Probably. Setting an example by depriving an individual of their freedom or taking their money in the form of fines for copying music is barbaric and non-productive. So, we can argue right/wrong, ethical/unethical, etc. until we're blue in the face, but it changes nothing. I don't know what the answer is, but the law ain't it. Ultimately, the law will not be a relavent factor in the success or failure of recording artists and the industry, in general.

[sunvalleylaw]

I will add one thing, I personally really like full albums that were made to be listened in a certain order, at one sitting. It may be a "story" type one, like "The Wall" or it might be just a suite of music exploring a theme, like "Kind of Blue". In addition to individual downloads, I hope the powers that be can figure it out so that artists can collaborate with visual artists, etc. to use the tech that exists now, to sell music experiences that harken to album art with lyrics pages like in the past, or take that to a new level. I could see products that one could download that combines album art, lyrics, music, and who knows what else. Not much motivation to do that if folks are just going to cut it up, put it on torrent, and have people pirate just a piece of it.

Again, I want to be clear, I do not agree with the emphasis of the efforts to control that the recording industry pursues. They don't get it and have their heads in the sand. It is like Gibson and that stoopid new guitar they put out. But hopefully, creative folks with foresight can figure out a way to develop, make, and sell music and art so that the people that deserve to be paid get paid, and so there is an incentive for people to pursue that work. Hopefully, it will be a system where enough people will be honest and pay so that those that don't will not ruin it for all. Will all theft be stopped, of course not. The Amazon model (and frankly the iTunes model that started it) may show a direction to pursue.

[Eric***]

Quote from a Scott Henderson, full time musician and one of the greatest guitar players on earth:

The contention I take with that quote is that he's telling me to buy his music because I'm supposed to know what it's like as a musician. That's not how markets work. I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about my life; is it my job to care about his?

He had some decent points, but it was all from a point of view that just seemed like he was clinging to what he has known in the past.

[Eric***]

BTW, I just want to mention that there have been some absolutely great points made by the posters in this thread. There have been a lot of things said that I was thinking, but did not have the patience or time to articulate.

[Jx2]

I already basically had my big rant on this topic in the lime wire thread.

However, in addition to that rant. I would like to say that I sometimes have a buddy rip a cd, if I like it then I go out and buy it probably 90% of the time. Ive probably bought several 1000 cd's in my lifetime and a few 100 cassettes. I just started a vinyl collection. I normally rip most of my albums onto a blank disk and keep those in the car, to prevent scratching and stolen items. Ive had several disk's over the years stolen from my car or at a party. Plus by carryin it around Ive been known to give them to friend to check out. Within my circle of friends all but 1 or 2 of us are "collectors" so if we like something we buy it. Sometimes when we are in the last record store around. We'll buy a disk just because the album cover is cool. While alot of times we ended up with something lost in a pile, we was listening to Korn, Marylin Manson and Type O Negative months or even years before they where big. Which gives us a little bragging rights when our circle mingles with other circles. Good times in general. Ive even known to buy a album just because. I picked up Pantera's Cowboys from Hell 20th anniversary cd about a month ago and its still sealed.

We was discussing this awhile back and we kind of agree'd that adventually cd's will be pushed out like they did to their predicessor. And all you'll really be able to do is to download. However, we also seemed to agree that vinyl will continue to be produced and offered along the lines of a "collectors item". With a current price point around $20 new. Those price's would likely to climb to $25-$30 range. Regardless of what is offered, there is always going to be a group, myself included, who wants to own the physical recording and all the bells and wistles that go with it.

I think the hardest thing to do when looking at the illeagl and legal side is to put yourself in the shoes of the artist. Which I beleive is hard to do, or at least one of those things people just convince themself they'd give it away. Think of it this way, say you had a job where you got paid by the peice rate. Meaning for each peice you completed you got a quarter. However, everytime you turn your head someone walks by and just takes a handfull of those peices. Would that be ok with you because your bank account is in good standings or cos the other guy needed them to make a quota? I seriously doubt it.

I saw Zakk Wylde on that metal show awile back. And he got talking about a young relative who illegaly d/ls. He said he felt the saddest part about it was seeing all these disks wrote in marker. Then one day the kid had a tee on of his favorite band. And Zakk asked him where he got it. He told him he bought it at a show. Zakk asked him if he bought it or just reached over the counter and grabbed it and took off. Cos thats what he does with their music.