TGP inspired: how do you like modelers for live use?

[Eric***]

I'm not a fan of lugging heavy stuff around all of the time, so I've constantly been trying to streamline my mobile setup. I've gone from a 50W tube amp down to essentially one pedal (Sansamp GT2). Recently, I've become a little dissatisfied with the cut/punch coming from this setup, which also includes OD/dist and delay in the chain around the GT2.

It sounds OK through my in-ears when I turn it up loud enough, but the recordings sound lame. It's like I have to fight to be heard in the mix, and I don't want to be that guy who keeps turning himself up. I feel like it shouldn't be this hard to have a guitar tone that can be heard individually.

So I'm once again starting to look at tube-based alternatives, maybe a 5-watter or something. I think the conclusion I've come to is that modelers are great for recording, and there's not much reason to use anything else when it comes to recording because they're at such a high level, but that I just can't get them to work well in live applications.

They should work, and that's the annoying part about the whole thing, but I have not had good luck in my many many attempts.

So how do all of you feel about it? Do you rock it live with SS/digital, or do you need a tube amp to get any good muscle behind your tone? I would love to have something like a Pod HD500 be my single-board solution, so it's not for lack of desire that I think these things. Maybe lack of competence, but not lack of desire. If anything, the desire for simplicity is my motivating factor.

Just curious what everyone thinks, and how you feel about modeling's place in general, particularly with all of the new generations of modeling out there.

Also, if you have any suggestions for my live woes, I'm all ears. I have discovered over the past couple of years that live is very different from recorded. A very different set of challenges, at least for me.

[marnold***]

That Sansamph doesn't have a dedicated mid control, right? IIRC, boosting the highs or lows also cuts the mids on it. Mids are what make you cut through. The newer character series pedals have a mid control, which might do the trick for you.

I obviously have my Jet City amph and love it to pieces. Do I love it because it has tubes? I don't know. I only know that I like the way it sounds. It's unfair to compare it to my AD30VT. That amph probably would have sounded better through my current cab than through its own enclosure. I've also never tried to play in a band situation with it so I have no idea how either of them would cut through. My only band experience is on bass.

[t_ross33]

TMids are what make you cut through.

Bingo! I've discovered that when I have a problem hearing myself in a monitor mix, or even through the FOH it boils down to EQ more often than volume. I've used an RP-80 and a Digitech GNX3000 in live situations direct to the board with no amp - just guitar in the monitor mix and it worked reasonably well (close enough for rock and roll as they say).

IMHO nothing beats tube-tone, but there are situations when leaving the amp at home can be a good thing indeed.

I would add a good EQ to your signal chain and be careful with the OD/Dist... a little really does go a long way. I think overdrive and distortion work best through an amp where they can get some air and breathe a little. DI'd to the PA or into your recording setup they tend to get muddy/fuzzy/fizzy quickly.

[Spudman***]

Amph. A man must have an amph. I've heard great modelers out front and in recordings. From the listener's perspective it's great, but not so much for the player. The testosterone jolt that comes from playing sort of loud is part of the performance. We men need that in order to rock out. Otherwise, it's kind of like "polite rock". What's the point of that?

Like the guys said, it's the mids that help you cut through. Modelers are often utilized at an audiophile type level and guitar is supposed to be gritty and dirty, slinky and in your face.

I know plenty of folks that use both modeler and amph, Lincoln Brewster for example runs direct to the mains with a modeler, but also sends a signal to an amph on stage. Great tone out front and a satisfying push of air on the stage. Granted he plays some very large halls and we don't. Take that into consideration. A good small amph can really rock a small hall or room. Moving air is very satisfying.

[Eric***]

Bingo! I've discovered that when I have a problem hearing myself in a monitor mix, or even through the FOH it boils down to EQ more often than volume. I've used an RP-80 and a Digitech GNX3000 in live situations direct to the board with no amp - just guitar in the monitor mix and it worked reasonably well (close enough for rock and roll as they say).

IMHO nothing beats tube-tone, but there are situations when leaving the amp at home can be a good thing indeed.

I would add a good EQ to your signal chain and be careful with the OD/Dist... a little really does go a long way. I think overdrive and distortion work best through an amp where they can get some air and breathe a little. DI'd to the PA or into your recording setup they tend to get muddy/fuzzy/fizzy quickly.

Good points. I've already turned down the high and low and turned up the volume (mids, effectively) to try to get better punch, and it may well be a volume issue at this point.

Regarding dirt, I actually feel like if anything, I'm too clean, but I think I know what you mean. I can get a good fuzz/compressed tone going by adding in the dirt pedal, but it sounds kind of choked, which I think is what you're hinting at. That being said, I need some more muscle from the base tone if I'm going to be happy, methinks.

At any rate, this has inspired me to dink around more before making any decisions. Either way, it was going to be a few months before I would pull the trigger on anything, so thanks for the suggestions.

[Eric***]

I know plenty of folks that use both modeler and amph, Lincoln Brewster for example runs direct to the mains with a modeler, but also sends a signal to an amph on stage. Great tone out front and a satisfying push of air on the stage. Granted he plays some very large halls and we don't. Take that into consideration. A good small amph can really rock a small hall or room. Moving air is very satisfying.

You know, I had thought about him when wondering if a modeler could do it. He just goes from Pod X3 to FOH, so I wondered why that's not good enough for me, but you make a valid point about him also using a Marshall stack on stage for "monitoring".

[hubberjub***]

I use modelers for demos all the time. They're just so easy to use if you're just throwing down some ideas. I would never consider using one live. I bet they're great if you play in a cover band and need a lot of different tones but I really only use a few. Plus having an amp on stage gives me something to set my beer on.

[Katastrophe]

You gotta move some air, even if you're lining out to a SS amph just to have noise.

I love modellers, but I can't imagine playing where all you can hear are the drums behind you, and a little, compressed guitar tone in my ears. Do you think running a Tech 21 powered extension cab would do the trick?

[Commodore 64***]

This thread is blowing my mind. I'm a noob, I know. But I can't understand how one would play live with out an Amp. How does the audience hear the guitar?

[hubberjub***]

Through a 1/4" jack installed in each audience member's head.

[Jimi75]

Here's my experience:
I have played about 120 gigs with my Line6 Flextone I plus a Line 6 1x12 box. So it was 2x12. This set up moved a lot of air! We were playing in a trio, playing Texas Blues and man it sounded great and I could cut through the band effortlessly.

In this vid, you can hear my 2001 set up (you can hear me play, but can't see me, because the drummer only filmed his a**!) Anyways, I was in love with the sound I had at that time and it was all MODELING.
http://www.box.net/shared/nprxh7ia8e

I have also tried a deskmodeler (Line6 POD - the kidneybean) played directly into the P.A. at a live gig. The sound was lush and I didn't like it.

I hated my FlextoneIII. I bought it, because I thought it would be better, but Line6's technology went worse at that time and it was no comparison to my old Flextone, which I still use. As I couldn't cut through, I sold the III.

Here's the conclusion though:
When I bought my Marshall JTM45....let me tell you....this was like somebody hitting me saying "see my boy, this is the real world"! Only then I knew what I was missing all these years.

For practical reason I still gig with my Line6 FlextoneI (sessions, rehearsals etc.)
But at a gig, I want to have the best sound poossible and this can only be achieved with my JTM45 tube amp.

I am convinced that modeling technology is superb for home and also studiorecording. Once you've heard an axe fx....but that's another story...

Never compromise on live sound. Tube is still the sh**!

[t_ross33]

This thread is blowing my mind. I'm a noob, I know. But I can't understand how one would play live with out an Amp. How does the audience hear the guitar?

Modeller -> PA or Front of House mixer. Guitar comes back to you via the monitor mix either through wedges, or in-ear monitors.

[Eric***]

This thread is blowing my mind. I'm a noob, I know. But I can't understand how one would play live with out an Amp. How does the audience hear the guitar?

To expand on t_ross' point, my setup is guitar -> pedals -> direct box (which makes the signal mixer-friendly) -> personal monitor -> house/mixer

What the personal monitor does is take the XLR cable from the DI box and put it in my in-ear monitors (ear buds), with another XLR output to go to the house PA/mixer. I also have a monitor feed from the house with whatever mix of instruments the bassist and I want (we have a lot of aux loops on our mixer), and the personal monitor lets me tweak the levels of me vs. everyone else in my headphones.

As far as people hearing it, that's all from the house speakers and house amps. I'm giving the mixer the signal that I want put through the house speakers, and that's what's making it out into the mains for the place.

I guess that still might not make sense, but hopefully it helps.

[Eric***]

Here's my experience:
I have played about 120 gigs with my Line6 Flextone I plus a Line 6 1x12 box. So it was 2x12. This set up moved a lot of air! We were playing in a trio, playing Texas Blues and man it sounded great and I could cut through the band effortlessly.

In this vid, you can hear my 2001 set up (you can hear me play, but can't see me, because the drummer only filmed his a**!) Anyways, I was in love with the sound I had at that time and it was all MODELING.
http://www.box.net/shared/nprxh7ia8e

I have also tried a deskmodeler (Line6 POD - the kidneybean) played directly into the P.A. at a live gig. The sound was lush and I didn't like it.

I hated my FlextoneIII. I bought it, because I thought it would be better, but Line6's technology went worse at that time and it was no comparison to my old Flextone, which I still use. As I couldn't cut through, I sold the III.

Here's the conclusion though:
When I bought my Marshall JTM45....let me tell you....this was like somebody hitting me saying "see my boy, this is the real world"! Only then I knew what I was missing all these years.

For practical reason I still gig with my Line6 FlextoneI (sessions, rehearsals etc.)
But at a gig, I want to have the best sound poossible and this can only be achieved with my JTM45 tube amp.

I am convinced that modeling technology is superb for home and also studiorecording. Once you've heard an axe fx....but that's another story...

Never compromise on live sound. Tube is still the sh**!

Very useful stuff as usual, Jimi -- thanks!

Your tone in that vid is pretty kickin'.

I feel like this thread has raised more questions than it's answered, but at least I have a few ideas. I think there might be some EQ crap going on at the mixer end; since I'm pretty much OK with the tone in my headphones, I might ask him to give me a flat EQ.

BTW, what did you mean about the AxeFX comment? That it's good for studio, or that it's good for live use, or what?

[deeaa*]

The best 'modeler' I ever played - and also used for years live - was a Marshall JMP-1 preamp via two different speaker emulators mixed together and thru a Boss SE-50 multiFX for some ambience (verb) into PA...it was VERY good for any use, nothing like the usual POD saturated FX laden stuff, but very very close to a full tube rig.

I did use first an SS poweramp and a 4x12" with it for monitoring, and later a 60W all-tube Peavey Classic poweramp and a 4x12"...still went to PA from the D/I outs and it was very good. That was what I used for Crankenhaus for a good while too.

But, can't beat the 36W head I now use...now that is real punch to play in front of :-) and that's what I have on Spookbox demos.

[Jimi75]

Very useful stuff as usual, Jimi -- thanks!

Your tone in that vid is pretty kickin'.

I feel like this thread has raised more questions than it's answered, but at least I have a few ideas. I think there might be some EQ crap going on at the mixer end; since I'm pretty much OK with the tone in my headphones, I might ask him to give me a flat EQ.

BTW, what did you mean about the AxeFX comment? That it's good for studio, or that it's good for live use, or what?

Thanks Eric.
Well the Axe FX makes every guitarist wet his pants. Studio, live, no matter what, this thing is the best sounding modelling device ever built. Check it out...but don't hold me responsible for possible GAS attacks ;-)


Some Blues:


Axe FX live, with balls, cutting through the band's sound easily:

[t_ross33]

I might ask him to give me a flat EQ.

Remember that there is often more than one EQ in the signal chain to FOH. Tone control on your guitar -> Tone or EQ controls on Amp or sim -> EQ on the channel strip on the board -> graphic EQ before amps to FOH etc.

If you are getting lost in the mix, you need to find the frequency range that your guitar sits best in and boost that a bit - but it won't matter much if you boost it at the channel and cut the same frequencies at the FOH EQ. Everything has to work together. If you like what you are getting through your monitor mix, then the EQ at the channel is probably OK - look farther down the chain.

[Eric***]

If you like what you are getting through your monitor mix, then the EQ at the channel is probably OK - look farther down the chain.

The tone in my headphones isn't just the monitor mix though -- the guitar I'm hearing is primarily my direct board signal being passed through to FOH via the headphone monitoring unit.

[BigJD]

I play through a modeler only.
The PA rig is mine and all the monitor gear is mine.
I love it, live in stereo my delays and other effects sound great.My floor monitor in front of me is cranked so I get feedback from my guitar just like I would my 4x12's and power amps, but I only have the weght of a 2 space rack to lug around.
Our audience members that have been around us for awhile say that the FOH has never sounded better,balanced ,clearer, cleaner.
Theres alot to be said for modelers used live from a sound guys point of view.
It was just another learning curve and adjustment to get used too, but now I prefer to go this route, AND the owners keep on booking us!