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Thread: problems with beginner student - any advice?

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    Post problems with beginner student - any advice?

    Hi!
    I have some problems with one of my guitar students and if anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it very much! I know the post is quite long, but I didn't know how else to write all that things in short. I'm really in need of some advice.

    So here it goes... she is an adult beginner on acoustic guitar (around 30 years old). I never encountered someone like this before, and so didn't few other private guitar teachers, especially when an adult is in question.

    She is very motivated to learn the guitar and wants to play well and understand it so badly, but often feels bad about herself because of her problems.

    Otherwise she always had quite good grades in school and is quite intelligent in other things. She doesn't have any special needs as far as I know, she was never diagnosed with anything. She had 2 years of piano in her primary school years (it was a looong time ago, though, and she forgot most of the things by now) and her pitch recognition is quite good, rhythm sense too. She can copy me to the beat, but when she has to play it without hearing or watching me first, she is quite lost. Now she is learning acoustic guitar for about 9 months.

    She understands rhythm, strumming patterns, and all the open chords very well, the trouble starts when we try to learn any form of musical notation (may it be tab or notes), anything about finding tones on the guitar, and she has lots of trouble with fingerstyle techniques because she can't read any notation, hence the trouble with remembering it. Sometimes it seems like she can't grasp a concept of tones and strings.

    When I tried to teach her barre chords, she knows F and B chord, also F minor and B minor, but whenever I teach her other barre chords, she can never remember the right name of the chord. The problem is she can't remember tones on the strings. She says it looks all the same to her. We tried learning by repetition, tried games, I explained the chords and tones on few different ways, we tried playing songs with the new chord we learned, we worked on muscle memory, I also wrote all new chords down and she has a fingering chart in her theory notebook. As far as it goes, it took us nearly half a year to figure out barre chords for the first four frets (F, F#, G, G#, A#, B, C, C#). We could do it by me writing down on what dot is what tone, by fingering chart I made, and heavy repetition. And sometimes she still fails it without a fingering chart or seeing what tone is on what dot. I don't know what else to do. Otherwise she learnes open chords quickly, because she memorizes them by shape, not by tones.

    Next problem are tones on the guitar. We did all those simple beginner exercises as 0,1,2, 0,1,2,3, or 0,1,2,3,4, etc. I tried to show her what the notes are first on low E string, later on A... she never made it past low E string. When she tries to find a tone by pitch, she doesn't take into account that the tones follow one another as semitones. So she finds wrong note more often than she finds the right one.

    What would solve most of the problems listed here, would be if she knew how to read any form of musical notation for guitar.
    I tried to teach her how to read the tablature which seemed like easier option because the finger placement is already shown there. She could not understand how to read it, I even asked some other guitar teachers how they would do it, and nobody could explain it to her so she could understand. Then I tried writing an inverted tablature and guess what, she could read it, almost sight-read! The problem is because it is an inverted, upside-down tablature where the lowest string (low E) is actually written on the line when you usually find a high E string tones. And you rarely find such tabs anywhere. So I have to manually convert everything she wants to play this way for her to be able to read it at all. I don't know how to teach her to read normally written tabs after so many attempts.

    But there is the thing... when I asked her which string is the highest and which the lowest, she said that to her it would be logical if high E string would be in the place of low E string, actually if all strings would be placed in that order on the guitar. I asked her with which hand she writes and she said she was a lefty, but when in school she had to switch to right hand, because it was "not right to be lefty" and she is now like righty. I think there is a problem.
    I adviced her to buy a left handed guitar and learn to read lefty tabs, or to replace the strings to different order, but she says she's used to strumming with the right hand and doesn't wanna change as she is very good with strumming chords now.

    After a few failed attempts, I asked her how she best memorizes things, and she said in pictures. So actually I would have to write and color everything down for her to 'get it'. I don't really have many ideas on how to do it, as it seems she is a straight visual thinker and not so good auditory/practical learner. Does anybody have any experience with highly visual learners?
    I know she does best when she copies everything I do and when I show her everything in front of her or draw a picture of the tones (we progressed pretty fast that way, but she often needs to look at pictures to remember things later, or has to see me play and copy it again and again), but I would want her to once be independent and not to need me for every single thing to show to her. I'm quite lost here.

    I also asked her what her goals are and she said that she would want to be a country guitarist once or to be in a some kind of acoustic guitar band. This is a high goal, and I'd want her to accomplish it once, but now we're stuck here with the thing called "musical theory and basic understanding of tones on strings".

    I would really appreciate any help on this matter. And any tips on how to progress more effectively, or for her to become more independent...
    Thank you!

  2. #2
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    Honestly, this sounds like she just isn't putting in the effort. I realize I have not met or seen her, but she sounds content to just mimic what you do rather than take on ownership of learning. Could you give some simple example exercises like a super-simple melody and tell her to figure it out at home during the week and see how far she gets? If she's not practicing or trying, I don't know what else you can do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudman
    Does anyone read the original post?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Honestly, this sounds like she just isn't putting in the effort. I realize I have not met or seen her, but she sounds content to just mimic what you do rather than take on ownership of learning. Could you give some simple example exercises like a super-simple melody and tell her to figure it out at home during the week and see how far she gets? If she's not practicing or trying, I don't know what else you can do.
    along with Eric's idea have you incorporated the one and a two and a three and a four concept(at all tempo speeds)?realizing this is chord territory basically it also is huge in melody and arpeggios in the form of fretboard logic.another winning concept she should try.we really do want to help.assuming you know your fretboard logic would it be a big deal to pass some along to her?generally speaking adults are not the problem.being able to comprehend and remember what has been learned might be.enter mastering the fretboard.once this is done it really is hard to mess up. her being able to progress on her own should follow suit shortly after the above has been done.just thoughts
    from someone who has played by ear over four decades and still going strong.like her played classical piano many moons ago but for some odd reason the theory part of it stuck when guitar became my focal point.a lot of ''theory'' is overrated and not an absolute to learning the instrument.too many greats to name that never give theory a second thought.they just do like The Who song.''pick up my guitar and play just like yesterday''
    additionally she must learn timing because just rhythm without time will get her nowhere fast.melody as in singing helps but playing by yourself/herself she needs the challenge to better herself.consider being her backing track in a lesson.ask her to play along hoping she will fill in the gaps.
    yes,tall order but one actually necessary as much as the above mentioned.
    after all it is called ''playing'' guitar for a reason Not working guitar.

    We hope this provides a little insight.aka inspiration she needs.
    Last edited by player; June 20th, 2013 at 03:07 PM.
    Life is like a camera, just focus on what’s important and capture the good times, develop from the negatives and if things don’t work out, just take another shot. ~ Anonymous


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    What are these notes you speak of? I have played for well over two decades and made countless songs and recordings, and I'd not be able to find any notes on the fretboard save the spots where the main open chords start and open strings. I just have feelings about around where approximately it sounds good to play. I use a lot of freaky Barre chords, sus something seven nine whatever, I have no clue what they are but that they sound cool and if I play a few inches from the middle fret over them that makes a nice sound. Notes are over-appreciated imo. Studied music in a music school for almost two years, never really understood how does notation work. It's like an insane system, why can't they just use letters and numbers instead of those stupid boingy dots that correspond to nothing and you need a ruler to count how far from the baseline c note each is. Pfft. That's just bull.

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    Dee

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    Quote Originally Posted by deeaa View Post
    What are these notes you speak of? I have played for well over two decades and made countless songs and recordings, and I'd not be able to find any notes on the fretboard save the spots where the main open chords start and open strings. I just have feelings about around where approximately it sounds good to play. I use a lot of freaky Barre chords, sus something seven nine whatever, I have no clue what they are but that they sound cool and if I play a few inches from the middle fret over them that makes a nice sound. Notes are over-appreciated imo. Studied music in a music school for almost two years, never really understood how does notation work. It's like an insane system, why can't they just use letters and numbers instead of those stupid boingy dots that correspond to nothing and you need a ruler to count how far from the baseline c note each is. Pfft. That's just bull.

    Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4 Beta
    Either this is heavy sarcasm or 85% of the way through a 6-pack, huh? Nice to see you around again, Dee. I'm going to go post in one of your old threads now that I know you're at least checking here periodically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudman
    Does anyone read the original post?
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    No, Eric, honesly I am clueless about notation and such. It's just gibberish to me, but on vocal notes they do help to remember/understand the melody in a graphic fashion. Other than that...I just never had a need to learn them, and it always seemed impossibly hard anyway.

    Btw good to be here again :-)
    Dee

    "When life's a biatch, be a horny dog"

    Amps: Marshall JVM 410H w/ Plexi Cap mod, Choke Mod & Negative Feedback Removal mod, 4x12", Behringer GMX110, Amplitube 3/StealthPedal

    Half a dozen custom built/bastardized guitars all with EMG's, mostly 85's, Ibanez Artwood acoustic & Yamaha SGR bass, Epiphone Prophecy SG, Vox Wah, Pitchblack tuner plus assorted pedals, rack gear etc. for home studio use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deeaa View Post
    No, Eric, honesly I am clueless about notation and such. It's just gibberish to me, but on vocal notes they do help to remember/understand the melody in a graphic fashion. Other than that...I just never had a need to learn them, and it always seemed impossibly hard anyway.

    Btw good to be here again :-)
    Well then, I apologize. I didn't mean to put you down or anything; I guess your "What are these notes you speak of?" got me thinking you were joking.

    I wish I had the instinct you have about music. I'm closer to that than I was, but it's the result of learning scales and arpeggios and what not. I feel that the instinctive creation of music is more meaningful, so I like it a lot -- I just don't seem to have that in me, even if I am not incompetent from an instrument standpoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudman
    Does anyone read the original post?
    Guitars: Gibson LP Studio, MIA Fender Precision, Carvin C350
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    No need to apologize Eric :-) notation is like maths to me, just too weird to grasp. Languages are easy, I guess my brain is just wired that way:-)
    Dee

    "When life's a biatch, be a horny dog"

    Amps: Marshall JVM 410H w/ Plexi Cap mod, Choke Mod & Negative Feedback Removal mod, 4x12", Behringer GMX110, Amplitube 3/StealthPedal

    Half a dozen custom built/bastardized guitars all with EMG's, mostly 85's, Ibanez Artwood acoustic & Yamaha SGR bass, Epiphone Prophecy SG, Vox Wah, Pitchblack tuner plus assorted pedals, rack gear etc. for home studio use.

  9. #9
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    guys.I hope this was not posted by what we called one hit wonders as a moderator.it seems every forum has them.they lay out questions like this only to never look at the board again.
    good and real teachers can take any critique.a couple I've known call it having thick skin.
    I say we wait to hear back before addressing anything any further.let's not spin our wheels.
    I hear ya on tab and notation though.great if you can.
    Life is like a camera, just focus on what’s important and capture the good times, develop from the negatives and if things don’t work out, just take another shot. ~ Anonymous


    Guitars: 1967(year they came out): Fender Coronado II Wildwood I ,Fullerton ST- 4 Fat Strat , Esteban Legacy acous/elec,99 MIA Standard Fender Strat
    Amph's Original Roland Cube 15,Drive 30 w/spring reverb

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