That about sums it up there Roh bear.
I thought it would be good to talk a bit about modeling amps and tube amps, and why or why not pick one before the other.
Pros
Tube amp
- Great Tone. There is something about tube amp tone. Can't be beat.
- Take pedals well. Most tube amps work well with pedals and effects.
- Status - a tube amp usually impresses people more.
- Resell Value - can usually sell them later and get (most of) the money back.
Cons
Tube amp
- Price - if you need multichannel, FX loop, etc, it can cost a lot.
- Versatility - you may need external effects - pedals or rack gear if you want the kind of versatility a modeling amp has. Naturally, this also brings up the price quite a bit.
- Maintenance - can be costly if you have many tubes in your amp and you replace them every year.
Pros
Modeling amp
- Price/value for the money - usually costs a lot less than a tube amp and you get a lot for the dollars.
- Versatility/Utility - they usually have many amp models and effects built in.
- Maintenance - usually not much need to be done. For most modeling amps, there is no need for tube swapping (except for Valvetronix, as we all know).
Cons
Modeling amp
- Tone - usually hard to compete in the "Big Tone" department, although it is getting closer all the time. Subjective, of course.
- Value - will you get a lot of money back if you sell it 3 years later? Who knows, but I wouldn't bet on it.
- May not like pedals - most modeling amps work best if you don't use pedals with hot signal going to the amp input. A booster pedal for example, won't work that well.
- Status - most other guitar players won't be drooling over your AD30VT
Comments welcome - I probably missed something so feel free to remind me!
Last edited by Robert; January 23rd, 2007 at 01:51 PM.
The Law of Gravity is nonsense. No such law exists. If I think I float, and you think I float, then it happens.
Master Guitar Academy - I also teach via SKYPE.
That about sums it up there Roh bear.
Guitars/Bass - MIM Fender Classic 50s Strat, MIM Fender Standard Strat, Squier Classic Vibe 50s Tele, Gibson Les Paul Studio, Epi '56 Gold Top Les Paul, Martin DSR acoustic, Sigma Martin Auditorium electric/acoustic, Squier Jazz Bass.
Amps/Cabinets/Modelers - Model 2558 50 watt Marshall Silver Anniversary Jubilee combo w/ Celestion Vintage 30s, 4x12 Marshall cabinet w/25 watt Greenback Celestions, Fender Blues Junior w/ a couple of Billm mods, Line 6 POD 2.0, Roland Micro Cube
Pedals/Effects - Cry Baby Classic Wah, Boss TU-2, Boss NS-2, Boss RC-2 Loop Station, Ross Compressor, MXR Micro Amp, Danelectro FAB Echo, Danelectro FAB Chorus, Danelectro Chicken Salad, Marshall Guv'nor Plus, Marshall Echohead, Duhvoodooman's Zonkin' Yellow Screamer, Digitech Digiverb, Digitech Bad Monkey, Dunlop Fuzz Face, Homemade Loop Bypass pedal, Duhvoodooman's Sonic Tonic (Maxon SD-9 clone +), Voodoo Labs Superfuzz
Something to add:
The touch, the way the amp allows the guitar to react when you attack the strings is different between the two. Isn't it? It seems the touch of the tube amp is more responsive than the modeling amp.
Weight The tube amp usually weighs more. It's only a con if you have to carry your tube amp a lot, or don't have any groupies to carry it for you.
Modifying I have yet to hear of anyone doing mods to modeling amps to get more from them. Tube amps are really open to this.
Fragility Tube amps because they have glass in them and extra heat from tubes can be more fragile than a modeling amp.
"No Tele For you." - The Tele Nazi
Ha! Tele-ish now inbound.
I play gigs with a modeler. I'll add:
The "tones" might not be spot-on, but with some patience, you can dial them in to make them serviceable enough for gigs. I've taken some ribbing by the "gear heads" about modeling amps not being up to the game - before I ever played a note. That usually converts itself to "Wow, that amp sounds good" after the first set. Nobody that has ever personally heard my modelers has had a bad thing to say about them.
The versatility is an awesome positive factor with modelers.
Guitars: 2008 Gibson SG Classic, 2006 Gibson Les Paul Standard LE, 2002 Gibson SG Supreme, 2001 Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus, 1996 Les Paul Studio Gem, American Deluxe Double Fat Strat, Bluesville "Super" Strat Copy, MIK Fender "Limited Edition" Tele, JD Bluesville "Night Pilot", Yamaha AES 820, Steinberger Spirit GT Pro, Taylor 355CE, Ovation 1897 Adamas, Ovation CC057 Celebrity
Amps: Axe FX centered rack rig, Mesa 4x12 cab. Germino Club 40, Johnson JM150 Millennium, Johnson JM250 Millennium, Gibson Titan Medalist Frankenstein.
Effects: Tonebone Trimode, EH Holy Grail, Boss CH-1, Dunlop Crybaby Classic, Framptone Amp Switcher, THD Hot Plate, Yamaha AG Stomp Acoustic Processor, Boss BCB-60 Pedal Board.
Good points, Spud, spot on.
Planky, agreed - it would likely mostly be the player himself that could hear the difference, not necessarily anyone else.
The Law of Gravity is nonsense. No such law exists. If I think I float, and you think I float, then it happens.
Master Guitar Academy - I also teach via SKYPE.
Now, there's also things to said about tube amps:
A good deal of a tube amp's appeal comes from it's touch response. No modeler that I've ever played has even come close to it. It's nice to lay back nice and soft on the pick attack to let the amp purr softly - and then grow fangs when you start digging into the strings.
Personally, I prefer the warmer cleans of tube amps, right alongside that thick, creamy distortion they're capable of.
My personal amp of choice is my Germino. To me, it's all the "great tube amp goodies" rolled into one small package.
I gig with my Johnsons because they offer incredible versatility. I can switch from Mesa to Marshall to Fender and all points in between with a click of a foot switch - and they sound pretty good doing it.
Guitars: 2008 Gibson SG Classic, 2006 Gibson Les Paul Standard LE, 2002 Gibson SG Supreme, 2001 Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus, 1996 Les Paul Studio Gem, American Deluxe Double Fat Strat, Bluesville "Super" Strat Copy, MIK Fender "Limited Edition" Tele, JD Bluesville "Night Pilot", Yamaha AES 820, Steinberger Spirit GT Pro, Taylor 355CE, Ovation 1897 Adamas, Ovation CC057 Celebrity
Amps: Axe FX centered rack rig, Mesa 4x12 cab. Germino Club 40, Johnson JM150 Millennium, Johnson JM250 Millennium, Gibson Titan Medalist Frankenstein.
Effects: Tonebone Trimode, EH Holy Grail, Boss CH-1, Dunlop Crybaby Classic, Framptone Amp Switcher, THD Hot Plate, Yamaha AG Stomp Acoustic Processor, Boss BCB-60 Pedal Board.
For me, it comes down to:
Tube amps - tone & touch
Modeling amps - flexibility & value
Which is why I have both!
Last edited by duhvoodooman; January 23rd, 2007 at 06:38 PM.
DVM's Ever-Expanding Gear List:
Guitars - W-A-A-A-Y-Y too many to list. Check 'em all out HERE
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Originally Posted by duhvoodooman
Sounds like it about sums it up. I was going to go for the flexibility and value first, but went with the C-30 cause I loved the tone, and really love the touch thing. Hope to add a small modeler later down the road for experimentation.
Steve Thompson
Sun Valley, Idaho
Guitars: Fender 60th Anniversary Std. Strat, Squier CVC Tele Hagstrom Viking Semi-hollow, Joshua beach guitar, Martin SPD-16TR Dreadnought
Amphs: Peavey Classic 30, '61 Fender Concert
Effects and such: Boss: DS-1, CE-5, NS-2 and RC20XL looper, Digitech Bad Monkey, Korg AX1G Multi-effects, Berhinger: TU100 tuner, PB100 Clean Boost, Line 6 Toneport UX2, Electro Harmonix Little Big Muff Pi, DuhVoodooMan's Rabid Rodent Rat Clone, Zonkin Yellow Screamer Mk. II, MXR Carbon Copy Delay
love is the answer, at least for most of the questions in my heart. . .
- j. johnson
Interesting thread Robert. I guess having both a good modeler and a tube amp would satisfy most players. Or get a tonelab that is a modeler with a tube
I can't say that I've given up on a flanger cause I've never liked the effect either. I also can't say the same about Tremolo. I hate them both equally. - Tone2TheBone 2009
On the Pro side for modelers is that you can get all that goodness through your headphones.
(Although the VOX ADVT series stupidly has the line out come before the
Valvereactor circuit).
Another thing for beginners is that it gives you a chance to play around with different types of sound so that you know what you are looking for in a tube amp when you buy one.
I don't have a tube amp, so I can't say anything about the touch thing, but don't you need to have the amp cooking to get it?
I pick a moon dog.
Geez, Tot, don't use the phrase "amp cooking" around here! You trying to further traumatize 6S9L after his recent Vibro Champ debacle?Originally Posted by tot_Ou_tard
DVM's Ever-Expanding Gear List:
Guitars - W-A-A-A-Y-Y too many to list. Check 'em all out HERE
Amps & Cabs - "Kap'n Kerrang-aroo" BYOC 18W TMB kit amp head; Mojave Coyote head; Fender Hot Rod Deluxe Lacquered Tweed Ltd. Ed.; Allen Sweet Spot kit amp; BYOC Tweed Royal kit amp; Epiphone Valve Jr. combo + mods; Drive 2x12 cab / Celestion G12M Greenback + G12H30; AB Custom Audio 1x12 cab / Celestion Alnico Blue
Pedals/Effects - ZILLIONS, including DVM's Home-built Pedals - See some HERE and HERE, TOO!
DVM's Gear Photos
Visit MY WEBSITE!
Yikes! Not much touch after that kind of cooking. Sorry 6S9L.Originally Posted by duhvoodooman
Maybe he can donate one of his 9 lives to his amp.
I pick a moon dog.
HARDEY HAR HAR ... ... cant get away with anything round these parts ..regarding tube vs mos ... you guys summed it up pretty well the only thing i'd add would be the resale value and investment potential of vintage tubage .... and THE COOL FACTOR!!!
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Marty DiBergi: "This tasteless cover is a good indication of the lack of musical invention within. The musical growth of this band cannot even be charted. They are treading water in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry."
Nigel Tufnel: That's just nitpicking, isn't it?
is there any good reason for doing this...could it have been that much harder to wire the line out AFTER the valvereactor circuit....thius has always bugged me about my voxOriginally Posted by tot_Ou_tard
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Guitars: Gibson 1998 Les Paul Special : Peavey Predator (Early 90's Fat Strat Copy) : Ibanez GAX30TROriginally Posted by just strum
Brownsville Reso - 101 Electric Reso : Fender GDO-300 Maple Quilt Top Acoustic
Amps: Fender Super Champ XD
Effects: Digitech RP250 Modeling Guitar Processor : DVM "Phased and Confused" Script Phaser Clone : Digitech Bad Monkey
Danelectro Cool Cat Chorus : Behringer Distortion Modeler : Ernie Ball Volume Pedal : Dunlop Cry Baby Wah
Perhaps, Mr. Moderator, you could go into more detail about this particular point in the Vintage section of the forum? Soapboxes are optional.Originally Posted by 6STRINGS 9LIVES
One of the big pro's for modeling amps / pre-amps, at least for me, is the reaction I get from died-in-the-wool tube hounds when they hear how good modeled tones can sound. I own, and enjoy playing both types (tube and modeling) of gear - yet, getting great, tube-like tone from modeling gear offers a feeling of satisfaction quite unlike any other. The technological aspects of it I also very interesting - as in how the inherent characteristics tones and effects are designed digitally. I also ike devising ways to make the tones sound, and react, more authentically to the various styles of music I play.
Tube amps, to me, are like a big hug from an old friend. No matter what the occasion, it always brings a smile to your face. When you're face-to-face with a good tube amp, things just feel right. The rest of whatever just falls into place after that. As for being face-to-face with a great tube amp . . . well, I might have delved into that topic a time or two before.
I asked this once in the patchtronix forum & Voxman (a very knowledgeable guy) said to save money. I don't understand that. It really costs more to hook a wire here rather than there?Originally Posted by warren0728
Last edited by tot_Ou_tard; January 24th, 2007 at 07:43 PM.
I pick a moon dog.
that's what i'm thinking....makes no sense at all....Originally Posted by tot_Ou_tard
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Guitars: Gibson 1998 Les Paul Special : Peavey Predator (Early 90's Fat Strat Copy) : Ibanez GAX30TROriginally Posted by just strum
Brownsville Reso - 101 Electric Reso : Fender GDO-300 Maple Quilt Top Acoustic
Amps: Fender Super Champ XD
Effects: Digitech RP250 Modeling Guitar Processor : DVM "Phased and Confused" Script Phaser Clone : Digitech Bad Monkey
Danelectro Cool Cat Chorus : Behringer Distortion Modeler : Ernie Ball Volume Pedal : Dunlop Cry Baby Wah
Once I heard my Strat through a tube amp, I'll never go back to solid state. Tubes just have that special wonderful warm "something" that I have yet to hear recreated on a modeled amp. The Vox AD series does a great job at coming close, but it just can't match a true tube amp to my ears.
"It's funny the way most people love the dead. Once you are dead, you are made for life." - Jimi Hendrix
What amp was that Trem?Originally Posted by tremoloman