How good is Bruce Lee?

[kiteman]

You decide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGQ7...layer_embedded

[msteeln]

I know his nephew...

[bcdon***]

Good, but this guy might be even better! :-)

[Spudman***]

WoW! Just Wow! I'd never seen that first video, but I had seen him do some things that mortals should not be able to do. So maybe it was the ping pong clan that had him killed after all?

It's really sad he left us so early, but I know it wan't his choice.

[Tone2TheBone]

Those are some serious numchuck skills.

[Ch0jin]

I think that video helps illustrate why Bruce Lee was looked down on by the Kung Fu schools of the day. All about the flash and the showmanship. I mean look at the size he built himself up to as well. More bodybuilder than martial artist.

I mean these days with MMA being all the rage, especially in the USA (I couldn't walk down the street without seeing a "TAPOUT" logo when I was over there last year) being huge and a martial arts guy is the norm, but back in the day being as big as Bruce got was not a good look for the Fu styles of the day.

I was watching a martial arts doco ages ago and I found it interesting when they pointed out that having massive biceps is totally counterproductive to punching fast, as the bicep -retracts- the arm, it adds nothing but drag to an arm extension.

Interesting...

EDIT: I am actually a Bruce Lee fan by the way, love his movies. Just saying.

[tunghaichuan***]

I think that video helps illustrate why Bruce Lee was looked down on by the Kung Fu schools of the day. All about the flash and the showmanship. I mean look at the size he built himself up to as well. More bodybuilder than martial artist.

It seems to me it was more that Lee was teaching non-Asians, i.e., non-Chinese. His movie moves may have been flashy, but his personal art/philosophy was to be direct and use the most effective techniques, not necessarily the prettiest. Martial arts in movies need to be flashy and impressive looking to maintain viewer interest. Wing Chun, Bruce Lee's original art, is all about speed, directness and economy of motion.

He was very ripped to be sure, but he never really was a very big guy. About 5' 7" and only weighed 135 lbs.

To paraphrase Robert W. Smith: you can be sure that a 6' 5" 250 lb. stevedore will beat the crap out of a 5' 7", 130 lb., 5th Dan karateka. Size is a huge deciding factor, which is why there are weight classes in contact/combat sports.

I mean these days with MMA being all the rage, especially in the USA (I couldn't walk down the street without seeing a "TAPOUT" logo when I was over there last year) being huge and a martial arts guy is the norm, but back in the day being as big as Bruce got was not a good look for the Fu styles of the day.

There were lots of guys bigger than Lee back in the day, many of the Westerners were very big compared to Lee. Chuck Norris for example. Anybody who would have been in the heavyweight class. Most of them weren't as ripped as Bruce Lee, though.

I was watching a martial arts doco ages ago and I found it interesting when they pointed out that having massive biceps is totally counterproductive to punching fast, as the bicep -retracts- the arm, it adds nothing but drag to an arm extension.

Of course, that assumes that a punch is performed by pistoning and retracting the arm. Bagua and Xing-yi for example punch with the arm mostly straight and use body weight and forward movement to generate power. Beng chuan (Xing-yi's "crushing fist") is an example of this. It is my understanding that this is why arts of this nature are called "long boxing" by the Chinese.

When I was studying Bagua and Xing-yi, there was a definite prejudice against weight lifting, which was more of a Shaolin or Hung Gar, training method. My Bagua instructor seemed to think that weight training impeded internal art training.

When I was a wrestler, one of the coaches made a comment that really stuck with me: he said that as wrestlers, we should only be concerned with muscular strength, power and endurance, not necessarily how pretty the muscle looks, or even how big it gets. In fact, it is possible to develop a lot of strength without putting on much bulk at all. Look at Olympic weight lifters, especially the middle and light weight classes. They are very strong compared to the general populace, but very few of them look like pumped up body builders.

EDIT: I am actually a Bruce Lee fan by the way, love his movies. Just saying.

I was a big fan, too. But I remember one of my karate teachers back in the day saying that everybody worshiped Lee, but he never competed in the many tournaments of the time. He gave lots of demonstrations, but never really tested himself against the best of his time. Back then, karate tournaments were mostly full-contact with minimal padding. Many times competitors were carried out on stretchers.

He was on the right track and was integrating grappling into his style at the time of his death, but at that time, the Gracies had already pretty much perfected their ground fighting techniques. They just hadn't made it to America yet.

Personally, I think it is fortunate for Lee that he never came across any of the Gracies. I don't think it would have gone well for Lee. Heck, today Lee's #1 student, Dan Inosanto, is a student of Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

[sumitomo]

Here's the Master!!!Sumi

[piebaldpython***]

At some point in time, somebody on Snopes.com will expose this video as an elaborate hoax. To think that he could consistently hit a ping-pong ball with nunchakus is an extraordinary feat in and of itself. To be able to hit the ball back in play at all........highly doubtful.

Lee was very, very good at what he did. And he he took Yip Man's Wing Chun, and adopted aspects of other styles to form his own Jeet Kune Do.

That said....against a highly trained Chinese stylist.....especially one who had access to internal/external strength/power conditioning programs like Stone Warrior, Iron Palm and Iron Vest, to name a few.......Lee would have been destroyed quickly.

Other than nunchakus, he was not skillfully adept with weopenry (sp ?) and so did not have that basis to draw fighting skills and strength on.

[Ch0jin]

It seems to me it was more that Lee was teaching non-Asians, i.e., non-Chinese.....

Of course you're right, I forgot all about that.

Martial arts in movies need to be flashy and impressive looking to maintain viewer interest. Wing Chun, Bruce Lee's original art, is all about speed, directness and economy of motion.

For sure, there is even a style of Kung Fu specifically for that. I saw that on TV too. Of course many of the guys I saw trained in various disciplines, but their main focus now was a style with a name I don't recall, but they train to do the big flashy martial arts movie moves, training to fight on wires and so forth. Think Crouching Tiger kinda stuff.

I completely agree on the Win Chun stuff. A good friend of mine trained in that style for many years whilst I messed around with Muay Thai and Boxing (briefly). The main thing I remember about trying to spa with him is all the awesome arm locks and wrist traps and stuff in Win Chun. Basically when I would try to straight box him I'd always end up with my arms folded back in on themselves and wrists bent the wrong way. Oh and that chain punch thing they do. Thats rattled my head a few times. I think it may have also been design so that women could also train in it for self defense as it didn't require huge strength, but I might be thinking of another style..

Of course, that assumes that a punch is performed by pistoning and retracting the arm. Bagua and Xing-yi for example punch with the arm mostly straight and use body weight and forward movement to generate power. Beng chuan (Xing-yi's "crushing fist") is an example of this. It is my understanding that this is why arts of this nature are called "long boxing" by the Chinese...

Excellent point. I feel like I've been totally schooled! Thanks for clearing up my messy ill-informed posting.

Oh I almost forgot... You might have seen it already, but there was this 10 part series on TV some time back called "Mind, Body and Kick *** moves" which is well worth a look. Thats where I saw the Kung Fu school for movie styles and the stuff about the biceps I mentioned. In ten episodes they cover a lot of ground martial arts wise, giving examples of plenty of styles as well as some amusing "back home" practical stuff (the presenter is English). My favorite being when he walks into this seedy pool hall in London, picks the biggest meanest guy and says "You think you can take me down for the cameras?" The outcome is obvious, but the look on the huge guys face when he's disarmed and on the floor in s split second is priceless.

[piebaldpython***]

It seems to me it was more that Lee was teaching non-Asians, i.e., non-Chinese.

To paraphrase Robert W. Smith: you can be sure that a 6' 5" 250 lb. stevedore will beat the crap out of a 5' 7", 130 lb., 5th Dan karateka. Size is a huge deciding factor, which is why there are weight classes in contact/combat sports.

Nah, it wasn't him teaching non-Asians.....sheesh, plenty of American servicemen have learned the Oriental fighting arts since at least the 1940s. Robert W. Smith learned from a whole host of Asian teachers on Taiwan in the 1960s.

What got Lee into "trouble", was saying that just teaching "forms" was not really beneficial for a student. The "form" in and of itself was just a dance and didn't necessarily impart fighting techniques. Glorified and gussied up phys ed that served as a money making machine. "Forms" can be a good thing in the hands of a dedicated teacher. The Form teaches certain physical characteristics not noted in prior or related forms. There is fighting application, but if a teacher doesn't reveal it, then the student is just doing a dance.

Lee didn't teach "forms"......he taught techniques and concepts and so his students were motivated to learn more, to search, to relate everything to fighting.

[tunghaichuan***]

Nah, it wasn't him teaching non-Asians.....sheesh, plenty of American servicemen have learned the Oriental fighting arts since at least the 1940s. Robert W. Smith learned from a whole host of Asian teachers on Taiwan in the 1960s.

What got Lee into "trouble", was saying that just teaching "forms" was not really beneficial for a student. The "form" in and of itself was just a dance and didn't necessarily impart fighting techniques. Glorified and gussied up phys ed that served as a money making machine. "Forms" can be a good thing in the hands of a dedicated teacher. The Form teaches certain physical characteristics not noted in prior or related forms. There is fighting application, but if a teacher doesn't reveal it, then the student is just doing a dance.

Lee didn't teach "forms"......he taught techniques and concepts and so his students were motivated to learn more, to search, to relate everything to fighting.

Of course, you're right. The whole "classical mess" that Lee railed against.

But I still think there was some prejudice against Lee teaching Chinese arts to non-Chinese. The Chinese were notoriously guarded about teaching their martial arts even to their own. Many times a prospective (Chinese!) student had to work very hard to be accepted by a teacher. I think that Lee freely teaching Chinese martial arts to non-Chinese probably ruffled a lot of feathers in the Chinese martial arts community.

Smith was kind of an anomaly. He was very good about getting Chinese martial arts experts to open up and reveal at least a little about their arts. It seems to me that most of the servicemen learning martial arts in Asia were learning mostly judo/karate/tae kwon do and not the more esoteric Chinese arts. Although there is some speculation that back in the 1930s, Fairbairn learned some Chinese arts which became the basis of his WWII hand-to-hand combat system while working as a policeman in Shanghai.

I owe a big debt to Smith, it was his book Pa-Kua: Chinese Boxing for Fitness & Self-Defense that got me interested in baguazhang.

[deeaa*]

To paraphrase Robert W. Smith: you can be sure that a 6' 5" 250 lb. stevedore will beat the crap out of a 5' 7", 130 lb., 5th Dan karateka. Size is a huge deciding factor, which is why there are weight classes in contact/combat sports.

I don't know jack about contact sports, but this I do not believe to be necessarily true. I have a true story.

I'm in a bar in the '90's, long hair and thin guy, with a guy I knew so and so, really thin, puny guy like 5'5" or whatever - I mean, I was skinny at 65kg and 177cm and he's like almost a head shorter and 20 pounds lighter. Hell smaller than most normal schoolgirls are, really.

Anyways, so we're having a beer and this HUGE guy comes to sit by us, he's built like an ox, easily over six feet and looks like a viking or something. Scary just because he was such a hulk of a guy. And he starts talking with us, he's somewhat drunk and so on, but pretty soon he starts eyeing who's he talking with and obviously dislikes us 'hippies' so all of a sudden he starts kinda talking all weird about things and how his kinda guys put all kinds of f**ng hippies underground and how he knows some russian mafia and whatnot, and we're like eyeing for exit. You know the drill.

Well my puny buddy is sitting right next to me, and (I later understood) what happened is this fella big was about to put his hands around his neck, semi-joking or I dunno, but anyways there's just this quick WOOHS and the giant just sort of staggers upwards and continues right down on his back eyes rolling and falls on the floor. I don't even see or realize what the hell happened.

We just sit there and my heart's missed a few beats and then the barkey comes to us and asks what the hell happened, did he fall, and my buddy just says that 'nope he was gonna strangle me or something and I just knocked him out'. The barkey just stares for a while in disbelief and shrugs and goes away saying 'you better get him up, then' as he goes.

My buddy is looking kinda worried and after a while he asks if the guy is still unconscious, and then he sighs and goes and wakes him up with a few slaps and just gently tells him to go home, OK, and the guy ups and goes, clearly still quite woozy.

Then my buddy comes back and he's all trembly and explains that he's never hit anyone outside a ring and he'd lose his licence and whatnot if he got busted for a bar fight...

And that's when I learn he was a Finnish featherweight Karate champion of some class the year before. So, yeah, I do know for a fact even a flyweight guy _can_ hit so hard and accurately that even a real big fella comes down like a tree.

But, if it were a fight in a ring and even the big guy has some fighting experience, sure I'd bet for him.

[piebaldpython***]

Well my puny buddy is sitting right next to me, and (I later understood) what happened is this fella big was about to put his hands around his neck, semi-joking or I dunno, but anyways there's just this quick WOOHS and the giant just sort of staggers upwards and continues right down on his back eyes rolling and falls on the floor. I don't even see or realize what the hell happened.

The big guy was maybe clowning around, half-serious and your friend caught him totally unawares. Yeah, that most certainly can happen.

The Robert Smith quote was more in reference to if a "man of size/power" was HELL-BENT on ripping your head off. Take any wrestler/football player, say 200 + lbs, tick him off, have him come after you, KNOWING that puny you is a "trained" striking arts fighter, and you are dead-meat. Once the big-guy attacks, you have to stop him within 2 strikes (one from each hand). If you can't stop him, he will tie you up (think a boxer's clinch) and you are in trouble.

Smith wrote a fascinating book about his time in Taiwan, training in a broad cross-section of Chinese styles. He and some others (Sifu John Allen and Master Gene Chicoine, both from the Akron Ohio area) will eagerly tell you the problem that 99% of practitioners of the striking arts (as opposed to grappling) have is that they lack the requisite POWER/STRENGTH to make their techniques works in the real world. In other words, they lack STOPPING POWER.

[Iago]

To paraphrase Robert W. Smith: you can be sure that a 6' 5" 250 lb. stevedore will beat the crap out of a 5' 7", 130 lb., 5th Dan karateka. Size is a huge deciding factor, which is why there are weight classes in contact/combat sports.

I've seen average sized guys beating heavier, over 6' fighters, and I'm not only talking about early UFC (pre-weight class days) but in recent no holds barred ("vale-tudo") championships in Brazil, where both fighters are prepared for it. Not saying the fights are the most technically developed thing in the world though .

Maybe the problem is this 5th dan karateka. I've practiced it in the past and I always feel that karate classes don't prepare you for real, agressive combat or a ring (of course, there are always exceptions), unlike muay thai, boxing and jiu-jitsu. What if the big bulky guy takes you down, what are you going to do? Punch him? Of course not. A decent, well prepared jiu-jitsu practicioner, even in weight disadvantage, would have a hell of a good chance to submit the unskilled brawler here, as it was proved many times before.

In a stand-up fight, the smaller guy wouldn't be standing still waiting to be punched (if he's prepared). He's going to move around all time, hit and escape to wear the bigger, usually slower guy out and look for the best opportunity for a precise strike.

Now, if both are equally well trained and one of them is a much bigger guy, he will definitely have a huge advantage.

[kiteman]

I'm a Bruce Lee fan too and Bruce said something like be a sapling but not an oak, springy and fast. He didn't plan to build bulk but to be strong and lithe.

The movies were fun and I know they're staged but the movements were something to watch. They're real martial artists and big names actually.

[Ch0jin]

I'm a Bruce Lee fan too and Bruce said something like be a sapling but not an oak, springy and fast. He didn't plan to build bulk but to be strong and lithe.

The movies were fun and I know they're staged but the movements were something to watch. They're real martial artists and big names actually.

Oh yeah, staged or not they are still impressive.

I guess I'm just jealous I never developed that massive ripped V shape accidentally haha

[bigoldron]

Seriously impressive!

[Commodore 64***]

He's a pussy. I could take him.