Where does guitar improvisation come from?

[R_of_G]

I don't really come out with much on the other end except maybe being a looser player and counting it as a good time.

Seems to me this is the whole point of playing. Think about it less and enjoy it more.

[Robert****]

Ahh learning the notes. Good question now that I think about it more! I'll get back to you later when I have more time. I'll share with you how I teach this topic. It's of fundamental importance.

[Spudman***]

When I think of soloing/improvising I think of having a conversation. You need to know basic sentence structure to communicate, which I liken to the chords or form of the song. The notes, or scalar parts, are like words. You get to choose what order to put them in to convey what you want to say. Move a note/word and it changes the message. When you know the language you can then handle any conversation/improv session.

Want to learn a new language, a different way of expressing yourself? Refer to Robert's list. Number 3 is listen, listen, listen. Then start incorporating those words, or phrases, into your own new language sentences.

That, and finger dancing, is how I view improvisation.

[rcwilk]

When I think of soloing/improvising I think of having a conversation.

So if improv is like having a conversation, are different instruments like different languages for you?

RC

[piebaldpython***]

The absolutely, positively most important skill to develop from DAY 1 is the ability to keep the beat and to count. If you can't keep the beat, it doesn't matter how great your riffs are because it'll all sound lousy because it's not in time. But.....if you can keep the beat, even if your git-playing skills are so-so, you'll sound GOOD because you're playing in time.

[Spudman***]

So if improv is like having a conversation, are different instruments like different languages for you?

RC

Nope. Different instruments are more like different people or individuals. While French horns may speak French, glockenspiels may speak German, electric guitars may speak British, drums may speak Swahili, bass may speak Norse, but like people, those instruments can also speak other languages.

Just as we don't always practice what we are going to say in the next moment, improvising on an instrument is like having a conversation to me. I don't know what I'm going to say until the situation requires it.

[rcwilk]

Just as we don't always practice what we are going to say in the next moment, improvising on an instrument is like having a conversation to me. I don't know what I'm going to say until the situation requires it.

Nice analogy. I wonder though about the conversation metaphor which implies a dialogue between two or more that are using shared representations. Do you sometimes find your improvisation(al) conversations go beyond what can be represented?

[Spudman***]

Nice analogy. Do you sometimes find your improvisation(al) conversations go beyond what can be represented?

The conversation is with the music. Not with another assumed person. The backing music is saying one thing and I then add my voice to the dialogue.

I don't know how anyone can go beyond what is represented. When improvising, it is what it is.

[R_of_G]

The absolutely, positively most important skill to develop from DAY 1 is the ability to keep the beat and to count. If you can't keep the beat, it doesn't matter how great your riffs are because it'll all sound lousy because it's not in time. But.....if you can keep the beat, even if your git-playing skills are so-so, you'll sound GOOD because you're playing in time.

This is true only if the nature of the jam calls for everyone to play in the same (or complementary) time signatures. Plenty of musical situations allow more freedom in the rhythm/timing.

[piebaldpython***]

This is true only if the nature of the jam calls for everyone to play in the same (or complementary) time signatures. Plenty of musical situations allow more freedom in the rhythm/timing.

I think that even if you're just doing some solo "front porch playing", timing is still important so that whatever it is that you're playing is somewhat recognizable, wouldn't you think? Unless of course, one is doing some avant-garde version of Happy Birthday.

[rcwilk]

Delta blues players may offer a good example of timing in playing. They treated their instruments in a more percussive way than contemporary guitar players. Still, the timing would speed up, slow down and jump erratically.

One Delta blues guitar player, upon migrating north to Chicago and being pulled to record in the studio, said that the piano players were always yelling at him, because he was playing in a variety of keys and tunings and time signatures, speeding up, slowing down and picking notes outside their range and knowledge set. I forgot who this was, sorry, but he said this interaction between delta guitar and northern piano shuffled the rural blues guitar into northern structured formats which is now rarely questioned. Lighnin Hopkins? Not sure who it was.

RC

[R_of_G]

I think that even if you're just doing some solo "front porch playing", timing is still important so that whatever it is that you're playing is somewhat recognizable, wouldn't you think?

Yes, timing is important in phrasing even when playing solo, but that's not entirely the same as playing in time. Does that make sense?

Perhaps it's listening endlessly to solo arrangements by guys like Ribot and Frisell that excel in deconstructing a song to (and often far past) it's recognizable parts. The timing in their phrasing is often intentionally out the window, but if the melody is persistent enough, it still sits at the heart of everything.

In my initial answer I was thinking more in terms of Albert Alyer type of group improvisation where playing in time with everyone else isn't necessarily the goal. Of course that could lead us to a far wider discussion of different types of improvisational approaches, and the differences between improv and jamming, and so on. A discussion I'd be thrilled to have but is tangential to RC's original question so I'll avoid forcing us in that direction.

[R_of_G]

Delta blues players may offer a good example of timing in playing. They treated their instruments in a more percussive way than contemporary guitar players.

I'm going to make you define "contemporary" before I accept that as a statement of fact.

There are dozens of funk, punk and jazz guitarist I can name off the top of my head that embrace the percussive aspects of their instrument. An army of Jimmy Nolen devotees are scratching their heads right now.

[rcwilk]

Of course that could lead us to a far wider discussion of different types of improvisational approaches, and the differences between improv and jamming, and so on. A discussion I'd be thrilled to have but is tangential to RC's original question so I'll avoid forcing us in that direction.

Maybe twist this question to ask, do some instruments lend themselves to jamming vs improvisation? Or is there something about the guitar that lends itself to one over the other?

This may turn out the same answers - some feel the player is the total influence on this, others see qualities in instruments that lend themselves to these forms of expression.

[rcwilk]

>>I'm going to make you define "contemporary" before I accept that as a statement of fact.

Ha ha, yes, there are many people playing these days that have percussive techniques in their guitar playing, but I don't find that a big part of playing currently. As someone said, it doesn't do much to hit a solid body electric, and though Spanish guitar has it's own percussive techniques, they don't seem essential to me. Country, Reggae, heavy metal - they may have some percussive moves, but I don't see it.
I'm not sure smashing a guitar counts as percussive, nor just banging the guitar around because you are only dimly away of its presence due to substance abuse.

RC

[Robert****]

The easier the instrument is to play, the easier it is to improvise.

We don't find too many improvisers of this instrument: (not that I know of anyway )



Or this one (bassoon)

[rcwilk]

The easier the instrument is to play, the easier it is to improvise.

So when there are times historically when the same instrument is being used less or more for improvisation, how does that fit in?

[R_of_G]

Maybe twist this question to ask, do some instruments lend themselves to jamming vs improvisation? Or is there something about the guitar that lends itself to one over the other?

Seems that is the question we've been getting at all along, no?

I suspect the answer is still going to come back trending towards "it's more to do with the player(s) and the situation" than towards any specific instrument.

Ha ha, yes, there are many people playing these days that have percussive techniques in their guitar playing, but I don't find that a big part of playing currently. As someone said, it doesn't do much to hit a solid body electric, and though Spanish guitar has it's own percussive techniques, they don't seem essential to me. Country, Reggae, heavy metal - they may have some percussive moves, but I don't see it.
I'm not sure smashing a guitar counts as percussive, nor just banging the guitar around because you are only dimly away of its presence due to substance abuse.

I think the key here is where you say "but I don't find that a big part of playing currently."

You're making a lot of declarative statements about the totality of "current music" which seem solely based on your anecdotal experience with it and not to seem harsh about it, but what you (or any one person for that matter) doesn't know about "current music" could just about fill the Grand Canyon.

I pride myself in listening to a ridiculously wide range of new music and yet I still know that the percentage of what I don't know about is far greater than what I do, and moreover that it always will be that way.

...Reggae... may have some percussive moves, but I don't see it.

Hearing test time?

If not for the distinct percussive rhythm strumming would it even be reggae?

The easier the instrument is to play, the easier it is to improvise.

Gonna have to disagree on that one, or at least suggest the sitar is the exception to that theory. There is nothing remotely easy to play about the sitar and yet it's lent itself to highly improvisational play dating back several thousand years.

[rcwilk]

I think the key here is where you say "but I don't find that a big part of playing currently."

No debate there. As I may have mentioned, I'm taking an online class in RockNroLL history and finding each lesson vast areas that I don't know and never knew about. I was shocked to find out BlueGrass is not an old rootsy form of music, but pretty much invented recently mid last century.
Certainly the Blue Men fad was percussive (guys in blue with tubes and other instrumental environmental drums), and there must be many more.

But I would suggest something (pseudo) scientific - we could start with forms of forums such as "all radio stations" and ask the question, do you hear a use of percussion on the guitar?

Ok, radio stations may be low output and have fewer ears than, say Youtube. So say we sample Youtube for music with guitars. How many are using guitar in a percussive way (that is essential to the music)?

I guess if you are including rhythm as percussion, which is surely a fair thing to do, then ~all~ guitar is fully percussive. But really I was getting at something else, that I see now I need to ponder how to express, as it isn't getting across very clearly.

- RC