Stock AD30VT vs. Ragin Cajun

[marnold]

I borrowed my friend's AD30VT and tested it against my Eminence Ragin Cajun-equipped version. His is on the left in these videos. Mine is on the right. See the videos themselves on YouTube for the details on the settings. I used my DST-3, using only the Screamin' Demon. My camera isn't the greatest (nor is my playing) but I think you can get the gist anyway.

Clean (Black 2x12)
H_unUVFFdFM

Medium Gain (UK70s)
XlfC-Dm69qU

High Gain (US Higain)
buifNcr6Zyw

One thing that struck me was how similar they were in volume. To my ear, the Ragin Cajun was much louder than my stock speaker. This can be explained in several ways:
1) His is newer than mine and they are using a slightly different speaker now (possible, although tonally they are very similar)
2) Since mine is older and has gotten much more use, the speaker does not age well (unlikely)
3) It was an aural illusion that they were different (possible, but my son and my wife thought the same thing)

Thoughts? Comments? Witty banter?

[M29]

First off these amps always impress me. I had an ad50vt and it sounded great too. Your amp sounds more present/more midrange to me and your friends has a lower midrange than yours. I think I prefer the Rajin Cajun better with a more up front sound. These amps do sound sweet.

Your playing is awesome, I really liked that! Rawk-on Rev:rockon:

M

[tunghaichuan]

One thing that struck me was how similar they were in volume. To my ear, the Ragin Cajun was much louder than my stock speaker. This can be explained in several ways:
1) His is newer than mine and they are using a slightly different speaker now (possible, although tonally they are very similar)
2) Since mine is older and has gotten much more use, the speaker does not age well (unlikely)
3) It was an aural illusion that they were different (possible, but my son and my wife thought the same thing)

Thoughts? Comments? Witty banter?

I would bet that the RC is louder due to it's sensitivity: 100dB/watt/meter.

I'm not sure what the stock speaker's sensitivity is, but I would bet that it is lower.

tung

[just strum]

OK, I am a Rajun Cajun fan, so we know where I stand on this.

Take each one of the clips and just click on the red bar back and forth so you are hearing it much closer to a "side-by-side" comparision. By doing it that way, you can almost compare chord for chord the difference.

After I did that, I thought the stock speaker sound like it was coming through one end of two cups connected together by string.

In other words, the stock doesn't even come close.

Again, switch back and forth by clicking on the red bar.

[duhvoodooman]

I prefer the RC--fuller, more open sound, warmer tone. Probably wouldn't sound as good with the mids heavily scooped, since that's where its strength seems to lie.

[just strum]

Probably wouldn't sound as good with the mids heavily scooped,

Can you explain that? What do you mean by scooped?

[duhvoodooman]

Can you explain that? What do you mean by scooped?
Crank up the bass and treble, and turn the mids way down. The resulting EQ profile looks "scooped" in the middle. Visualize how it would look on a 10-band graphic equalizer, and you'll have the picture.

[just strum]

Crank up the bass and treble, and turn the mids way down. The resulting EQ profile looks "scooped" in the middle. Visualize how it would look on a 10-band graphic equalizer, and you'll have the picture.

Got it - I was trying to define it in an audio way, never considered visual. Need to think outside of the box.

[marnold]

OK, something is completely insane here. I put my old speaker back in and with the same settings, my amp is considerably quieter than his. I got his permission to take the back off to see if Vox did indeed switch speakers. Otherwise, what's the deal here? Is my tube shot? Both of them seem to be glowing about equally, which is not much.

[M29]

Rev your speaker probably has less sensitivity than his like tung mentioned. It could even be the same kind of speaker, they can vary but it sounds like they made a change and used a more sensitive speaker to make the newer amp a little louder. Would be interesting to see if the speakers are different thought. Keep us informed please.

M

[just strum]

OK, something is completely insane here. I put my old speaker back in and with the same settings, my amp is considerably quieter than his. I got his permission to take the back off to see if Vox did indeed switch speakers. Otherwise, what's the deal here? Is my tube shot? Both of them seem to be glowing about equally, which is not much.

I had a distinct increase in volume when I switched mine. I think the other thing that might make it seem like it's louder, is it is more sensitive to any adjustments made in settings. If the speaker reacts better to the settings, you will be hearing tones that you never heard with the old speaker.

IMHO of course.

Edit:
1) I guess I should have read the other responses, but at least I'm on the right path.

2) I don't know if it really is louder, but I do know it makes my ears bleed quicker.

[marnold]

OK, so I opened up his amp to find that the speakers are not the same. Very similar, but not exactly alike. No big surprise since I'm sure they have a general spec and the get whoever can make them cheapest. So I took both original speakers out. The magnet on his is about 1/4" bigger in diameter than mine. The weight is approximately the same. I put his in mine and mine in his. Guess what--his amp is still louder! So the speaker is irrelevant. I put my Cajun in his amp and in the limited amount of time I had to test (the kids are going to bed) it sounded like 50 pounds of awesome in a 10 pound bag. The high end is tamed, the mids are more pronounced, and the bass is tighter. Despite the extra mids it doesn't sound muted, it sounds growlier.

When I tested them with the stock speakers side-by-side, not only was mine quieter but it seemed less "lively" too--muted and boring. This leads me to two possible conclusions:
1) My tube needs replacing. As I said, it glows about as much as the one in his does--which isn't much at all. Through the little grill on the back of the amp, I can see that his tube is an Electro-Harmonix. Mine doesn't seem to have anything printed on it.
2) Vox changed the specs on the AD30VT amp itself between the time I got mine and he got his. Not impossible, but I have a hard time imagining that they would sink much R&D into a product like this with razor-thin margins as it is.

Tung, DVM, jim p, other amp gurus . . . HELP!

Tomorrow's my day off so I could hit a guitar shoppe for a new tube.

[markb]

Crank up the bass and treble, and turn the mids way down. The resulting EQ profile looks "scooped" in the middle. Visualize how it would look on a 10-band graphic equalizer, and you'll have the picture.

AKA "smile curve" and variations thereof. Mid boost = "frowning". Even GEs have smileys :) .

I think the RC is much nicer on the cleans than the stock speaker. The RC may get louder as it breaks in. I doubt it's loosened up yet.

[marnold]

FWIW, according to Valvetronix.net, the sensitivity on an AD30VT's stock speaker is 97dB. The Ragin Cajun is 100dB. Not sure what that translates too in real world figures.

[markb]

3db = twice as loud (approximately).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker (scroll down a bit)

[just strum]

3db = twice as loud (approximately).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker (scroll down a bit)

That explains the bleeding ears.

[duhvoodooman]

Have you tried the reset sequence mentioned on pg. 15 of the manual? And I assume you've confirmed that the power level knobs in the back are set the same between the two amps?

[M29]

Rev, try his tube in yours and see what happens. Might save a few bucks and some gas buying a tube to try. They just pull out and push in.

[duhvoodooman]

Rev, try his tube in yours and see what happens. Might save a few bucks and some gas buying a tube to try. They just pull out and push in.
The problem in these amps is getting at the tube--it's a real pain to change. Nothing like changing a preamp tube in your average tube amp.

[M29]

Thanks Vood, it seems like I do remember hearing something like that. Watch out for that input jack too if I remember correctly, they are easily broken.

[marnold]

Have you tried the reset sequence mentioned on pg. 15 of the manual? And I assume you've confirmed that the power level knobs in the back are set the same between the two amps?
Yep, power levels the same. I haven't tried the reset. I did it once--but I don't remember when that was. Certainly would be a cheap/easy fix. I'll try it in the morning.


Rev, try his tube in yours and see what happens. Might save a few bucks and some gas buying a tube to try. They just pull out and push in.
I thought about that, but I'm loathe to pull his amp apart too much. It's one thing if I ruin my own. It's another if I ruin his.

[tunghaichuan]

It could be the tube. The EH is a Russian tube, IIRC. If yours is unmarked it could be anything. Although my money would be on Sovtek or Chinese. Like the speaker, Vox puts whatever tube they can get the cheapest at the time.

The EH is a good tube. They come stock in the Valve Junior. In fact, I have one that I pulled from a Valve Junior that you can have. PM me your address and I'll drop it in the mail.

You can't really tell much about the tube from the filament glow. Obviously if there isn't a glow the tube is dead, but the filament could still light up and look fine and the tube could be on its last legs. In an all tube amp, one of the symptoms of a tube on its last legs is loss of power.

tung



OK, so I opened up his amp to find that the speakers are not the same. Very similar, but not exactly alike. No big surprise since I'm sure they have a general spec and the get whoever can make them cheapest. So I took both original speakers out. The magnet on his is about 1/4" bigger in diameter than mine. The weight is approximately the same. I put his in mine and mine in his. Guess what--his amp is still louder! So the speaker is irrelevant. I put my Cajun in his amp and in the limited amount of time I had to test (the kids are going to bed) it sounded like 50 pounds of awesome in a 10 pound bag. The high end is tamed, the mids are more pronounced, and the bass is tighter. Despite the extra mids it doesn't sound muted, it sounds growlier.

When I tested them with the stock speakers side-by-side, not only was mine quieter but it seemed less "lively" too--muted and boring. This leads me to two possible conclusions:
1) My tube needs replacing. As I said, it glows about as much as the one in his does--which isn't much at all. Through the little grill on the back of the amp, I can see that his tube is an Electro-Harmonix. Mine doesn't seem to have anything printed on it.
2) Vox changed the specs on the AD30VT amp itself between the time I got mine and he got his. Not impossible, but I have a hard time imagining that they would sink much R&D into a product like this with razor-thin margins as it is.

Tung, DVM, jim p, other amp gurus . . . HELP!

Tomorrow's my day off so I could hit a guitar shoppe for a new tube.

[markb]

The tube is quite easy to get at once you've removed the back panel (loads of screws). It's just poking down out of the chassis on the right hand side. Orienting the replacement is a pain as you can't see the socket so be gentle. But my only experience is with the '50, maybe it's harder to find in the '30.

[marnold]

A quick look with a flashlight revealed that it is also an Electro-Harmonix. The "label" was on the opposite side. If the reset doesn't help, I'll probably take you up on your kind offer, Tung. I hope one or the other does it because my friend's amp with the new speaker really sounds nice.

[M29]

Does he know his serial number............................:thwap: Just kidding just kidding. I will pray about that I promise.........

[Kazz]

I do not think I would take the tube out of a "friends" amp and try it in mine....what if something goes wrong...also fingerprints on a tube are bad news guys.

Here is a good test for you Matt....hopefully you have a multimeter... check the resistance across the 2 terminals of each speaker....

Power = Resistance multiplied by the current squared or P= R X I² See what you find.

You might also check the power output across the speakers with them installed for a load....I am wondering if the attenuator settings are equal between the 2 amps....his might be putting out more power than yours....or it just might be time for you to get a new tube.

[just strum]

Does he know his serial number............................:thwap: Just kidding just kidding. I will pray about that I promise.........

Well, at least I am not alone in my thoughts. I was also going to suggest practicing the repairs on the friends amp before diving into your amp.:D

Again, just kidding.

[marnold]

Well, I've been tweaking and playing all morning and these are my preliminary conclusions. Mind you I've been playing and listening so much that it's almost to the point that I'm not sure what I'm hearing anymore. With that caveat . . .
1) The reset seems to have cured the volume problem. Free solutions are always the best. The preamp must've gone to its happy place. The only significant difference I could tell between the two was that his still seemed brighter--a fact that I chalk up to his being newer and not played that much whereas my speaker is well broken-in.
2) These amps seem very directional. What you hear parked in front of it is substantially different from what you hear off to the side. The distance that you stand away makes quite a difference too. What sounds muddy close up sounds punchy when you back up. That's more of a general observation than a comment on the two speakers.
3) The Cajun tames the high end fizzyness when playing loud. That aspect by itself is a benefit for every model on the dial. Oddly enough, I noticed an improvement with the Tweed model the most. I really couldn't stand its distortion before. It always seemed like it was screaming, "This is a cheap amplifier!" Now it sounds much nicer, richer, not fizzy at all.
4) The high gain model that improved the most is the UK Modern. The gain went from bag full of snakes to pleasingly violent.
5) The "high" gain model that suffered the most is the Boutique OD. It's better after I reset the amp, but it still gets a bit too muffled. I think some creative EQing could at least make it usable. Note: this is with humbuckers. I really didn't try single coils with it.
6) The Blackface model has always been my favorite clean model. The Cajun makes a good thing better. It just sounds a lot richer. My neck Area 61 just sounds awesome with it as well as the neck-middle "notch" position.
7) Throw out your presets and start anew.

In summary:
If you mainly hang out on the left side of the amp model selector, the Cajun is a no brainer. I think Strummy basically hit it on the head when he said that it makes it sound like a real tube amp. I would just say it makes it sound like a real amp. It removes the tell-tale cheap amp sounds commonly associated with a cheap speaker.

If you mainly hand out on the right side of the amp model selector, it's a slightly different situation. Prepare to abandon your EQ settings and favorite amp models for something you might not have expected. If you really dig the scooped tone, look elsewhere. This speaker doesn't do scooped. As a matter of fact, you might have to scoop the mids a bit anyway to get a "normal" (for me) metal tone.

Also, the differences become more noticeable the louder you play. If you are playing at church mouse volumes, don't bother with a new speaker. If you like to crank 'er up a bit, the Cajun will make you much happier.

[M29]

It seems to me I heard it was good to do a reset every now and then. Sounds like it helped. Schweet!!


Well, at least I am not alone in my thoughts. Bad boy strum bad boy:spank: Ouch that hoyts.:D

[just strum]

I've never done a reset, I will have to locate my owners manual.

So Marnold, what is your finally conclusion, or are you still undecided?

[marnold]

I noticed a couple of other things today too. I reinstalled the stock speakers, but mine in his amp and vice versa. The differences were negligible now after the reset. Not only that, I dimed both master volumes and found out that when at the max position one is more clockwise than the other. That means that "2:00" is relative. My AR attempts to make everything perfect were for naught.

Strummy, I'm going to have a couple other people give a listen beside me. At this juncture, I'm strongly leaning toward keeping it. Even if I'd be persuaded not to, I AM persuaded that a new speaker would cure 94.4% of the issues I've had with mine.

[Duff]

Ragin' Cajun Marnold?

I have one in my Fender SCXD and it is a lot louder. A few decibels is a LOT when you move up from 95 to 100dB sensitivity, like I probably did.

I like the RC volume and tone with the models and effects. It is a great speaker and weighs about ten times what the stock fender one did.

I might get a RC for one of my other amps. A great ten inch speaker.

Duffy
Peace

[marnold]

Yeah, I don't think the clips do it justice. For one, I did those clips before resetting my AD30VT. For two, I don't think my camera's mic is really up to the task. The differences are far more substantial in real life.

[tot_Ou_tard]

I wonder whether the reset just puts the computer in the stock state or if it also adjusts the tube trim. I'm happy that the reset worked in any case.

Aside on the tube trim:

I doubt that it does the latter as the tube needs to warm up for 30 min - hour to do that correctly.

The Tonelab (& the blue label combos) give you access to the tube trim screw with readout help on the LED to let you know when you're in spec.

The trim adjusts the output of the tube into the A/D converter in front of the solid state power amp that follows.

The higher the output the louder the amp, up until it clips the A/D input which would be nasty sounding.

I suppose one could always try to locate the tube trim adjustment & try to adjust it by ear if necessary or by a voltmeter.

I would leave the amp be of course.

[marnold]

I wonder whether the reset just puts the computer in the stock state or if it also adjusts the tube trim. I'm happy that the reset worked in any case.
No idea, but I've heard of some pretty odd bugs being cured by resetting an AD30VT. The only "problem" is that I lost my presets. I had them written down. It wasn't a huge loss anyway since I really needed to create all new ones because of the tone difference.

[just strum]

No idea, but I've heard of some pretty odd bugs being cured by resetting an AD30VT. The only "problem" is that I lost my presets. I had them written down. It wasn't a huge loss anyway since I really needed to create all new ones because of the tone difference.

I have to find my manual so I can do the reset tomorrow.

Lost all your presets, didn't you only have two?

[marnold]

I have to find my manual so I can do the reset tomorrow.

Lost all your presets, didn't you only have two?
Well, yeah. Probably "both" would have been more accurate.

[just strum]

Well, yeah. Probably "both" would have been more accurate.

I thought for a minute that you found a way to store more than two, which would be pretty cool. The limited saving ability on the AD30VT is one of the things I would put in the "Con" column.

[marnold]

I thought for a minute that you found a way to store more than two, which would be pretty cool. The limited saving ability on the AD30VT is one of the things I would put in the "Con" column.
Yep, and one of the many things they fixed with the new VT series.