Non-traditional materials for guitars?

[Eric]

Some recent discussion has made me wonder what guitars would sound, play, and feel like if they weren't made of wood. In particular, in this post (http://www.thefret.net/showthread.php/14591-New-pickguard-for-the-CV-50-s-Strat?p=217543&viewfull=1#post217543) deeaa talks about how with a thick laquer coating, a guitar may as well be made of plastic.

So what if a guitar was made of plastic? How would it sound? Parker makes some of their fly guitars out of carbon fiber, don't they? Hagstrom uses some sort of plastic on their fretboards, I believe. So what if the entire guitar was made of synthetic materials? Would you notice? Would it be possible to build a guitar that sounds exactly like an all-mahogany counterpart without using any woods?

I'm guessing most guitar makers don't use synthetic materials because it's hard to convince people to buy non-wood guitars, but I'm just curious about the whole thing and whether it would be a viable solution if someone wanted to do it.

[R_of_G]

It'd sound like this...

XBcen1w6NQs

[Commodore 64]

or this!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFyQXy74xz4

Or this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ASu9BRjac

[oldguy]

I have a Switch Innovo 4 guitar that is made of "Vibracell" (plastic). It sounds quite good, actually.
It has EMG select humbuckers and a Wilkinson trem. I'd say it's a bit like a bright sounding LP type guitar.
The company went out of business.

[Eric]

I have a Switch Innovo 4 guitar that is made of "Vibracell" (plastic). It sounds quite good, actually.
It has EMG select humbuckers and a Wilkinson trem. I'd say it's a bit like a bright sounding LP type guitar.
Interesting. Some quick googling says that the Vibracell is supposed to mimic mahogany. Do you think it does a convincing job at that?


The company went out of business.
That might be the sad fate of most companies that try to do this. I for one would be interested in trying a guitar made of something other than wood.

[R_of_G]

Or this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ASu9BRjac

I'm not sure how to score this one. He loses a LOT of points for using such a crappy beer, but gains almost as many for playing "Wildwood Flower." ;)

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Baxter is one of the best guitarists out there, and also a very intelligent guy technology-wise. His acrylic (?) guitar really dispells the "tonewood" stuff that is so often argued on guitar forums, at least to me.

In what I think is a more critical area, acoustic guitars, the newer carbon fiber composite guitars have gotten very good reviews - no wood at all.

I think "traditional" is the key word in the discussion, as some people are loathe to embrace new ideas that conflict with old, firmly-held ones.

[Eric]

In what I think is a more critical area, acoustic guitars, the newer carbon fiber composite guitars have gotten very good reviews - no wood at all.
I know Martin makes a particle-board (HPL: high-pressure laminate) guitar that's supposed to be decent, but I hadn't heard about carbon-fiber ones. Which ones are those, if you don't mind me asking?

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Eric:

http://www.caguitars.com/guitars.cfm

BTW, HPL and particle board aren't the same thing

[Eric]

BTW, HPL and particle board aren't the same thing
What's the difference?

[Bookkeeper's Son]

From: http://www.pbmdf.com/High-Pressure-Laminates

HPL is produced by saturating multiple layers of kraft paper with phenolic resin. A layer of printed décor paper is placed on top of the kraft paper before pressing. The resulting sandwich is fused together under heat and pressure (more than 1,000 PSI). Because phenolic and melamine resins are thermoset plastics, the curing process transforms the resin into plastic by a cross linking process that converts the paper sheets into a single, rigid laminated sheet.

And particle board is just what its name implies - board made from wood particles, sawdust, etc..

[Eric]

From: http://www.pbmdf.com/High-Pressure-Laminates

HPL is produced by saturating multiple layers of kraft paper with phenolic resin. A layer of printed décor paper is placed on top of the kraft paper before pressing. The resulting sandwich is fused together under heat and pressure (more than 1,000 PSI). Because phenolic and melamine resins are thermoset plastics, the curing process transforms the resin into plastic by a cross linking process that converts the paper sheets into a single, rigid laminated sheet.

And particle board is just what its name implies - board made from wood particles, sawdust, etc..
I see. It sounds like HPL is the same idea (compressed paper/wood) with glue and a butt-ton of pressure, done as a specific process. Thanks.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Particle board, in general, isn't known for its structural strength, so it's not good for stair treads, etc., where bending forces are involved. Laminates like plywood are much stronger.

[Eric]

Particle board, in general, isn't known for its structural strength, so it's not good for stair treads, etc., where bending forces are involved. Laminates like plywood are much stronger.
That makes sense. Some laminates (I'm thinking specifically about plywood here) have the grain perpendicular in the adjacent layers, don't they? Seems like that would add to the strength quite a bit as well.

[Bookkeeper's Son]

Zackly!

[Bookkeeper's Son]

I've noticed in the tonewood discussions that 335s, etc. are never mentioned - they're all made out of plywood!!!!!

Living in Oregon, I've become quite aware of deforestation, so I'm all in favor of alternatives to destroying our beautiful forests.

[Eric]

Living in Oregon, I've become quite aware of deforestation, so I'm all in favor of alternatives to destroying our beautiful forests.
Yup. That, reduced weight, and the march of innovation and technology are the main reasons I'm interested in this sort of thing. I think someone (Jet City, maybe?) was working on vacuum-tube replacements at some point too -- ones that would sit in the tube sockets but weren't actual tubes. I think that's another interesting idea. Isn't there some sort of regulation on where tubes can be manufactured, or did I just dream that up?

[Zip]

Ever played a Rainsong (http://rainsong.com/)? (<======clicky) Nice rich sound (& pricetag!) without harming any trees at all.

[markb]

You want alternative materials? Try this 80s British wacko project. LED tone controls and an external power supply? Check! Moulded frets? Check!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_Electraglide

[deeaa]

It's pretty surprising indeed what kind of materials can be used, and how the material might sound just as good as another...but of course it could be just as bad as well :-) IMO particle board laminate which I've seen on some really cheapskate guitars is the worst possible - heavy, dead and all the bad things. I'd rather have plastic!

My stone guitar for instance sounds quite fine...and Steinberg has made 'em from plastics...there are full metal ones around, and a company in Finland makes 'em out of Flaxwood which is specifically designed plastic/wood pulp extruded material which is actually very very nice, much akin to some really light and resonant woods.

For my purposes it seems pretty much any material will do, but certainly the materials have differences; if you want a very lively guitar it usually means you want light woods etc. to achieve that - but then again stone is also very lively. The shape of the guitar, weight, all that stuff likely matters more than the actual material per se. Besides, there's so much variation between woods that one piece of ash may be completely different from another piece of ash. I've once tried mahogany, ash and alder bodies on the same neck and electrics, when I put together my strat, and both me and the builder were amazed at direct comparison how minute the sonical differences were indeed. The mahogany was just heavy and maybe a tad more mid-centered, but really there weren't such huge differences at all.

If I were to build a very lively/responding guitar for bluesy sounds and whatnot, I'd definitely go find some very old spruce, maybe even from a submerged tree, and extemely well dried, and make the guitar out of that.

But, I'm thinking like Leo Fender did - too much resonance etc. is quite counterproductive in an electric.

[Eric]

So let's say you were to build a modern-day Les Paul, using all available technology and perhaps synthetic components wherever possible. Do you think you could end up making it sound and play like an all-mahogany Les Paul in the end? In other words, with all of these options and variables, could you ultimately use them as a substitute, or would they end up making a guitar that might be nice, but sounded quite different?

[Retro Hound]

My nieces husband made a bass out of clear acrylic. It works, but I haven't heard it. He's got it hanging on the wall and it looks really cool.

[deeaa]

So let's say you were to build a modern-day Les Paul, using all available technology and perhaps synthetic components wherever possible. Do you think you could end up making it sound and play like an all-mahogany Les Paul in the end? In other words, with all of these options and variables, could you ultimately use them as a substitute, or would they end up making a guitar that might be nice, but sounded quite different?

I would guess it _could_ be made to sound just the same by selecting just suitable synthetic materials. However, if you just slabbed it together from whatever plastics, it'd surely sound different from mahogany. That Flaxwood thing for instance sounds just as good or better than natural woods - I've played 'em and they sure ring like a bell but still sound warm, very nice.

Entirely different question, how much of those acoustic differences carry thru to the amp.

[hubberjub]

I have a Modulus Graphite guitar. It's not exactly what you're talking about. It uses graphite to reinforce woods that are typically deemed too soft to use for guitars.

[oldguy]

Interesting. Some quick googling says that the Vibracell is supposed to mimic mahogany. Do you think it does a convincing job at that?


That might be the sad fate of most companies that try to do this. I for one would be interested in trying a guitar made of something other than wood.

I would say the guitar has a good amount of ringing sustain, sounds brighter than my Agile 3100, and is fairly heavy.
I can't say it mimics mahogany because it's brighter sounding than my Agile, which is mahogany w/ a thin maple cap.
This may have something to do w/ the EMG Select pickups the Switch has, or the Wilkinson trem, the locking tuners, etc.
I do notice the Switch seems to have a slimmer, sculpted body compared to the Agile, yet it feels about as heavy. I've never weighed them.
It absolutely is a quality guitar, tho.

[deeaa]

I think with non-wood materials the benefit is that they do not have any hidden knots or whatever, which might hinder the soundwaves/break their movement, but since it's completely uniform, they should ring more true and harmonically richer than any natural material. I have no doubt Flaxwood for instance is better than wood for guitars, at least in most cases.

[NWBasser]

And then there's always aluminum.

http://www.normandyguitars.com/

[markb]

Another truly wacko project. I've seen precisely 2 of these, ever

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gittler_guitar

Aluminium? Veleno guitars from the 70s. Lots of celeb players. D'ya think he gave them away :socool FWIW I've never seen a Veleno in the flesh (surely aluminium, ed). Please do something about your spelling, NWBasser :) The bloke who wrote is web site is no better, mind.

http://www.veleno.net/history2.html

[NWBasser]

Please do something about your spelling, NWBasser :) The bloke who wrote is web site is no better, mind.



:poke

[markb]

:thwap